Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Sorry but I no longer have any empathy for rural america fucking me over.
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The influx of moderates telling us to tolerate sexism, xenophobia, and racism all day
- Thread starter Crossing Eden
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Twilight Princess
Member
The only way to fight violence is violence.
MHWilliams
Member
Dial it back.
Not according to Ghandi or Jesus. Both were reasonably successful revolutionary figures
Pinko Marx
Banned
And meanwhile they won't give a shit as they continue to vote against the left because of people like you and their my way or the highway attitude.
Riposte
Member
Have you done your part and hit someone today?
I don't give a flying fuck whether liberals try to educate or actively fight or gently cajole the opinions of Trump supporters. Just as long as the two groups are talking with each other in some way, there's a chance that you might heal your divided society and not be a scary infighting armed clusterfuck to the south.
As it stands, it seems like the two groups cannot even speak with each other in the rare cases where they acknowledge the other as something worth speaking to.
That's totally fucked.
As it stands, it seems like the two groups cannot even speak with each other in the rare cases where they acknowledge the other as something worth speaking to.
That's totally fucked.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Trump voters don't need to understand because theyve gotten what they wanted. It's the left that needs to understand why they lost at this time. And large part of it is the all or nothing camp that wants you to fall in line or get the hell out of the way.
Lumination
'enry 'ollins
You're assuming they CAN change.
1) Their Republican reps have pretty much made it impossible for them to transition into a green energy sector in the first place.
2) These are an aging population we're talking about here. How do you magically teach them to even operate the technologies required to do their new modern jobs?
It's a hard problem and I don't have the answers to them.
But what is your end goal? Are you shaming the bigots out of voting? Because that sure didn't happen in our great 2016.
Continue the tantrum then, my friend. I'm sure it'll work out by 2020.
capitalCORN
Member
They were both martyrs. The name Jesus barely evokes the imagery of his original message anymore, and the Brits only left India when it was no longer economically feasible to hold anymore.
We need to come together as people. We need to show them that we won't elect on this divisiveness that has taken off since the early 90s. I have a LOT of GOP friends. I don't know how..... kind of annoying... but talk to them and guess what? They don't want me screwed. They don't want minorities screwed. We need more of these conversations and NOT at general elections. GEs are too late. How many honest conversations did we have with republicans during the primaries about the republican ticket? Or the same for our ticket? I'll admit it. I sat back and laughed at Trump. I never sat down and said "ok all joking aside this guy is going to be disaster if he wins. What other candidates do you have?"
I used to think we'd follow the politicians. But clearly the politicians will keep rising to the ballots based on what works. So we need to change what works.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
8 million people didn't vote, we don't exactly need people clinging to an impossible premise while passively supporting bigotry to win every election from now on
I mean, I think Trump supporters understand pretty well that people of color just want to be left in peace to live safely in America.
That is specifically what they voted against!
why would they need/want to change when they fuckin won? lol
I just said something similar in another thread but it's more relevant here.
I'm from Turkey. Enter Turkey 14 years ago. The rural people are uneducated, religious, and they are lacking in jobs. The liberals live in cities, and are considered an elite. They've been winning elections handily, coasting on being the establishment and not really having strong opposition. Then, Erdogan happens. A demagogue liar who appeals to people's religious sensibilities and promises jobs. Liberals don't take him seriously, and he wins the election. Liberals double down on calling the rural people stupid uneducated idiots who vote against their own interest (which they do). Bu Erdogan is popular, he controls the rhetoric and he makes some short term changes that improve the life of the rural people. The liberals keep bringing out more and more establishment candidates that don't do anything to tap into the rural people, instead even further alienating them.
As a result, we've had 14 years of Erdogan with no end in sight. He's crushed civil liberties, hate crimes against religious minorities and women are the norm because he empowers the people to do so. He controls all branches of government, and elections are rigged. The liberals had two legitimate shots at beating him, but each time they entrenched themselves further into their ivory tower and called his base names. I see a very similar trend here in America now, and I'm very concerned. The right will not play nice, and they are morally wrong. Being morally right doesn't win elections though. No matter how much those people hate you for who you are, you can't win elections without them, so you need to make compromises. Yes, they're racist, but you have to sit at the table with them, because they're half of the electorate. I really don't know what's the best way to get them to play along, because Turkey clearly failed. But I know that it's going to get harder and harder to educate people and reconcile, because the politicians in power are going to do everything to keep it. They will gerrymander, cut education, polarize people with hateful rhetoric.
In this case, the burden is on the left to rise above this, take a hit to our ego, and find a way to come together despite ourselves. Going further left and pushing those people further away can't work. But as I said, I really don't know what can. I really fear the exact same situation repeating itself though. The rhetoric from Trump and his more vocal followers is scary though.
Also, I don't think every person who voted for Trump is a racist. Yes, they're enabling a blatant racist, and they're being racist by proxy, but some people just don't care about social issues and are only concerned with their immediate economic situation. We need to distinguish between these people and flat out actual racists with our approach, because we don't want to label them racists and push them to band with the full on nazis. We need to bring them to our side and educate them. It sucks that the burden is on us, but it has to be.
I'm from Turkey. Enter Turkey 14 years ago. The rural people are uneducated, religious, and they are lacking in jobs. The liberals live in cities, and are considered an elite. They've been winning elections handily, coasting on being the establishment and not really having strong opposition. Then, Erdogan happens. A demagogue liar who appeals to people's religious sensibilities and promises jobs. Liberals don't take him seriously, and he wins the election. Liberals double down on calling the rural people stupid uneducated idiots who vote against their own interest (which they do). Bu Erdogan is popular, he controls the rhetoric and he makes some short term changes that improve the life of the rural people. The liberals keep bringing out more and more establishment candidates that don't do anything to tap into the rural people, instead even further alienating them.
As a result, we've had 14 years of Erdogan with no end in sight. He's crushed civil liberties, hate crimes against religious minorities and women are the norm because he empowers the people to do so. He controls all branches of government, and elections are rigged. The liberals had two legitimate shots at beating him, but each time they entrenched themselves further into their ivory tower and called his base names. I see a very similar trend here in America now, and I'm very concerned. The right will not play nice, and they are morally wrong. Being morally right doesn't win elections though. No matter how much those people hate you for who you are, you can't win elections without them, so you need to make compromises. Yes, they're racist, but you have to sit at the table with them, because they're half of the electorate. I really don't know what's the best way to get them to play along, because Turkey clearly failed. But I know that it's going to get harder and harder to educate people and reconcile, because the politicians in power are going to do everything to keep it. They will gerrymander, cut education, polarize people with hateful rhetoric.
In this case, the burden is on the left to rise above this, take a hit to our ego, and find a way to come together despite ourselves. Going further left and pushing those people further away can't work. But as I said, I really don't know what can. I really fear the exact same situation repeating itself though. The rhetoric from Trump and his more vocal followers is scary though.
Also, I don't think every person who voted for Trump is a racist. Yes, they're enabling a blatant racist, and they're being racist by proxy, but some people just don't care about social issues and are only concerned with their immediate economic situation. We need to distinguish between these people and flat out actual racists with our approach, because we don't want to label them racists and push them to band with the full on nazis. We need to bring them to our side and educate them. It sucks that the burden is on us, but it has to be.
Pinko Marx
Banned
They're not specifically voting against minorities. Some are, yes, but there are many others that are just voting for their interests. We could have gotten some of those voters, but we yelled at them and told them they were racists because they were undecided or they saw value in parts of Trump's platform.
Lumination
'enry 'ollins
Even if you plan on winning every branch of government (and SCOTUS is basically lost to us anyway), you're not getting rid of bigotry by shouting it down and letting it fester in the dark. That's how we got here in the first place.
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I'm out for the night. It's a stressful time for a lot of people here and in this country. Emotions are running high. I'm not arrogant enough to assume I've swayed any one of you, but I do hope that reading my posts caused some of you to pause the anger for a second and reflect.
Have a good night everyone. Stay safe and look forward to 2018 and 2020.
This is the big concern with this thread. "If they aren't racist they are still condoning it"
Ok, fine. That may be. But.... if they aren't racist, and are given a better platform without the racism.. isn't that a better option for everyone? It would stand then that that would be a damn good reason for dems to reach out to them.
Frozenprince
Banned
Because they didn't win. Their way of life is dead with or without Trump.
Frozenprince
Banned
Also look I'm gonna say it people are deluded if you think anything meaningful will happen to shift the house or senate in 2018.
Dems don't vote in midterms, that's just fact at this point.
Dems don't vote in midterms, that's just fact at this point.
capitalCORN
Member
As much as the left might be willing to engage, the hardline right will not contemplate that. Like I said before. The right has been making an enemy of the left for a long time. You can trace it anywhere you want, the red scare, the southern strategy, etc. The fact remains, we are indelibly marked as opponents.You know what hurts more than anything? Exclusion. Being without when there's so many around you. There needs to be an event where people learn that bigotry in not tolerated, not one iota, and that being part of that society is shameful. Democrats have long run on the platform of moral superiority, but cooing and opening arms ain't doing shit to change people not already in line.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
And isn't it true that the fact that everybody--Democrats--seem to be ignoring them is the cause that now bites everyone in their arse right now? Maybe I'm wrong.
Though I suppose finding a candidate that can energize people to actually go out there and vote is a much bigger problem.
Pinko Marx
Banned
This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Dems didn't reach out to these people. Or if they did it obviously wasn't a valiant enough effort.
I'm of the mind that we actively scared some of these people away because they didn't immediately fall in line.
The enabled a racist , just as bad,
Puck Beaverton
Banned
It's like some question we haven't quite solved on a mass scale: How do you find a more compassionate way to change people's minds? That's a tough challenge that pops up in a situation where the oppressor's opinion is in power, and ending oppression relies on changing it. On the flipside, it's unfair and unreasonable to expect every oppressed person to be Gandhi. They'er just people, and want to be held up to the same standards as other people.
For a little while now I've thought an answer might just be finding a way to bring different people closer together geographically, because when people see and converse with those who are different every day, there's a higher chance they begin to see them more as people and not "others." That's where empathy might come from. I could be totally wrong though.
For a little while now I've thought an answer might just be finding a way to bring different people closer together geographically, because when people see and converse with those who are different every day, there's a higher chance they begin to see them more as people and not "others." That's where empathy might come from. I could be totally wrong though.
Pinko Marx
Banned
The bottom line is that we still lost to the racist. Say what you will, point all the fingers you want, but Donald Trump is the 45th President of the United States. And the Dems had all the cards in their hands and still couldn't pull off the win. So what does that say about our party?
So basically fuck us, we have to bend over backwards for them? We understand why we lost, we're angry because it's extremely unfair that someone campaigns using hateful rhetoric and still wins the election, we would not get away with such tactics, we know it can be unhelpful but the disappointment runs deep.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
it would help. segregation is still a thing because I never see minorities other than Asians in my immediate neighborhood. None.
Sure but both were successful and a 2000+ year legacy is nothing to ignore. Despite their being a good deal of truth that modern Cristians dont reitterate many of the same values
Dont twist my words. I said nothing about patience.
Be assertive, bother the ignorant. Stand on the edge and show people that they have nothing to fear. Be loud, be heard.
Just do it in a way that says that there is room at the table for everyone. Groups may be stupid but individuals are perfectly reasonable
Made a post on Facebook earlier sending my thoughts and love to all the minorities I do and don't know, and that I hope they're able to make it through okay. Almost immediately one of my cousins, white christian middle class, replies with "I'm a woman and I'm doing just fine, there's nothing wrong here". The "fuck you I got mine" attitude is alive and well, and it's so saddening.
I am an African American and since the election ended have been struggling mightily with the results of the election.
I have lived half of my life in the North (NJ) and the other half in the South and was always well aware that racism existed and was very prevalent but last nights results seemed to have rattled me a bit.
The most troubling thing since the election ended is the fact that purposefully or not, 60 million people agree or tolerate Trump's racist views. Basically this means my neighbors, coworkers, friends, etc may be smiling and pretending to get along with me to my face but harbor extremely ill feelings about me behind my back.
Im sure this may be an overreaction and definitely isnt healthy but I cannot seem to shake my mind off this. I literally feel like my trust in everyone is gone and that I have to keep my guard up at all times.
Im not entirely sure where this fits into the context of this thread but I feel like my life as I once knew it is done.
I have lived half of my life in the North (NJ) and the other half in the South and was always well aware that racism existed and was very prevalent but last nights results seemed to have rattled me a bit.
The most troubling thing since the election ended is the fact that purposefully or not, 60 million people agree or tolerate Trump's racist views. Basically this means my neighbors, coworkers, friends, etc may be smiling and pretending to get along with me to my face but harbor extremely ill feelings about me behind my back.
Im sure this may be an overreaction and definitely isnt healthy but I cannot seem to shake my mind off this. I literally feel like my trust in everyone is gone and that I have to keep my guard up at all times.
Im not entirely sure where this fits into the context of this thread but I feel like my life as I once knew it is done.
capitalCORN
Member
Both have about as much potency as the Coca Cola bears. It's an easily sold image, based on marketability.
You are.
White rural Americans have been advocating for white nationalism literally since America was founded.
The electoral college that just prevented Hillary from winning the election was created by Thomas Jefferson partially to protect white Southerners who were afraid that Northerners would try to eliminate slavery.
When the time came for us to actually eliminate slavery they forced a civil war and spent the lives of millions of Americans rather than allow black people to own their own bodies.
Then they murdered Abraham Lincoln so that a white rural American could become president and allow them to institute extralegal violence and limitations to ensure that black people would effectively remain enslaved.
When the Civil Rights Act was passed, guaranteeing people of color the right to be part of America equally, they literally went so berserk that they took over one of the two political parties and claimed that the other party was governing illegitimately every time it won an election.
Fifty years later they've finally hit their breaking point and they're ready to seize their country back and drive out, by force if necessary, as many people of color as necessary to ensure that America always remains a majority white country.
People imagining that white rural Americans are suddenly acting racist today, just this year, just because of economic issues that just sprang up, are living in a fantasy world that ignores literally the entirety of American history, which revolves in its fullness around America's original sin, white supremacy.
But then, they're probably white.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Lol it's ridiculous that i say we need to speak to these people instead of yell at them and Everytime the response is like "OH SO WE NEED TO CATER AND CODDLE THE RACISTS THEN HUH". Obviously fucking not. Racists can die and burn. Its not the racists that need to be convinced, it's the blue collar worker in middle America that maybe doesn't have as much exposure to "Progressive America" to understand why we're fighting the fight that we are.
You know what you call people who care more about their wallets than they care about how minorities are treated?
RACISTS.
Why do you think we had fucking slavery for so long? It's because the southern states wanted to preserve their slave-based economic power. Do we then go back and say those assholes weren't really racist because really they just wanted to keep making money?
Of course not.
These assholes have literally just told us that the picture of the dead white man in their pocket is worth more than the living brown people in this country.
And I'm far beyond the point where I give a damn if their feelings are hurt.
StrategyFan
Member
there are so many different ways to reach people in a campaign
a presidential candidate can condemn racism & sexism while still making a play for votes from some of the rural whites who don't view discrimination as a pivotal issue
Clinton didn't have to achieve both goals at the same time in the same message, but some finesse and strategy would have been better than doing nothing
we can take a strong stance against bigotry. we can criticize peoples' indifference of widespread problems. but a multi-pronged campaign should also be able to collect votes based on different issues (like the economy) in parallel, and that's where Hillary fell way short of Obama
a presidential candidate can condemn racism & sexism while still making a play for votes from some of the rural whites who don't view discrimination as a pivotal issue
Clinton didn't have to achieve both goals at the same time in the same message, but some finesse and strategy would have been better than doing nothing
we can take a strong stance against bigotry. we can criticize peoples' indifference of widespread problems. but a multi-pronged campaign should also be able to collect votes based on different issues (like the economy) in parallel, and that's where Hillary fell way short of Obama
capitalCORN
Member
I'm sorry, but did you see the voter record based on income. The poor did come out for Hillary, it's the middle and up that went pear shaped.
Pinko Marx
Banned
No one said anything about poor people.
capitalCORN
Member
You said blue collar. The column continues up to the extremes/highest brackets.
I'm sorry that's all you got from my post, but I don't think this viewpoint is likely to win elections. And I think there's a distinction between slavery and "I don't care what happens to other people, I need to look out for me and my own family right now". I don't want to apologize for these people because I don't really think what they're doing is right, but if we want to win elections, we need to have a conversation with these people. These are people you can convert to your cause, unlike people who are actively racist. There are levels here, and not making these distinctions loses progressives elections. I've been there. I've felt this pain 4 times already. It just doesn't work.
A lot of these people likely aren't actually against civil rights. Some might even advocate for them. It's just that, given the option of their self interest and the interest of others, they pick their self interest. I know of small business owners who are lifelong democrats who struggled with choosing Hillary because of the immediate threat to their livelihood. They ended up voting dem, but were they poorer they might not have had the same outlook.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Forgive my choice of words then. I feel you understand my overall point though.
rural america is such a shit show. drugs, single parents, call centers, fast food chains. no opportunity. exclusively minimum wage jobs. bad schools, no health care, constant car problems. everyone is overworked, overstressed. everyone is taken advantage of.
"it's their fault their lives are like that". even looking at it from the outside, at best they could've taken on massive college debt, left their friends and deserted their family to go 6 hours away to a city and their lives would possibly, maybe be "better" - alone and isolated. lol. keep on and have no empathy
Technically 100 million people didn't vote. Apathy has been running terribly high in the United States for a long time.
I don't see how the racists of America could be more energized than they were this election. It's time for the progressive left to wake back up.
I'm not about to tolerate intolerance, bigotry, xenophobia, misoginy, bullying and pettyness because roughly 3% less than the majority of people who voted are telling me, apparently, that it's ok.
Trump ran with a certain record, and by saying, doing and promising certain things that, for any other politician ever, would have been career ending, let alone be electable to the highest office of the land.
I am also not giving anyone a pass for voting for a charismatic demagogue who happens to have 100% name recognition because he is a boisterous billionaire and reality tv star, who happens to say, with conviction or not, what a lot of people who feel disenfranchised feel like.
Trump's voters are either racists, xenophobes and misogynists themselves, or they are at the very least comfortable enough with the idea to ignore it or give it a pass.
I can't.
It's worth nothing in practice, but as far as I'm concerned, Trump isn't my president because, contrarily to most halfway decent candidates I even happen to strongly disagree with on ideas and policies, he does not appear to be a half-decent human being.
He does not, for me, pass the very minimum standard of being even qualified to run for any form of office.
I will just have to live with it, and Vote Like Hell whenever possible, and encourage others to do so as well.
Trump ran with a certain record, and by saying, doing and promising certain things that, for any other politician ever, would have been career ending, let alone be electable to the highest office of the land.
I am also not giving anyone a pass for voting for a charismatic demagogue who happens to have 100% name recognition because he is a boisterous billionaire and reality tv star, who happens to say, with conviction or not, what a lot of people who feel disenfranchised feel like.
Trump's voters are either racists, xenophobes and misogynists themselves, or they are at the very least comfortable enough with the idea to ignore it or give it a pass.
I can't.
It's worth nothing in practice, but as far as I'm concerned, Trump isn't my president because, contrarily to most halfway decent candidates I even happen to strongly disagree with on ideas and policies, he does not appear to be a half-decent human being.
He does not, for me, pass the very minimum standard of being even qualified to run for any form of office.
I will just have to live with it, and Vote Like Hell whenever possible, and encourage others to do so as well.
JesseEwiak
Member
Right. So, not the real racists, just the people who will vote for the racist anytime the other side is too nice to the brown and black people.
PastorOfMuppets
Banned
Gandhi got stabbed, Jesus was crucified and MLK got shot.
This thread is depressing. Minorities are being expected to eat shit and pretend they like it rather than inconvenience people who think theyre sub-human and those who condone it. Like, I really want to believe in other people and have empathy for them, but its really fucking hard when they automatically view me as sub-human and treat race and gender issues as white noise with no intention of any meaningful compromise. Its like minorities are forever stuck in no-win situation.
Snowybreak
Member
Extremely accurate. It isn't hard to look back at history and see that racism not only existed throughout our country's lifetime, but proliferated and seeped into the foundation of our laws.
I mean, just look at the war on drugs.
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