Foxy the Fox
Member
The US-centric entitlement is real.
The right and left changes according to the country and context you know?
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German Interior Ministry shuts down and raids left-wing website
- Thread starter Xando
- Start date
The US-centric entitlement is real.
The right and left changes according to the country and context you know?
That's something different. If you include hate speech, that's correct. If you talk about violent crimes (Koerperverletzung) and criminal damage (Sachbeschaedigung), it's different. Though at least for violent crimes the numbers apparently changed last year, so that one is higher for right-wing motivated cases now:
You end up rather easy as leftwing criminal in the statistics. There was just recently the case of a police officer bumping into a journalist. The journalist ended up being part of the statistic because she took revenge on his polite complaining about it.
ultratruman
Banned
A lot of people don't know this, but a big reason for the Nazi's polling victory was the explosion of constant Left-wing vs Right-wing street violence in the early 30s.
The centre Left in Germany were utterly discredited and fractured by the violence; the Right (as always) remained more unified.
I'm not saying this is a good move by German authorities, but Germany takes a hard line on all forms of political violence for a reason. Physical violence poisons politics, it is an extremely dangerous thing to advocate.
The centre Left in Germany were utterly discredited and fractured by the violence; the Right (as always) remained more unified.
I'm not saying this is a good move by German authorities, but Germany takes a hard line on all forms of political violence for a reason. Physical violence poisons politics, it is an extremely dangerous thing to advocate.
Good. No reason radical leftists should be treated differently than right-wing extremists or Islamists. Being allowed to call for violence against others is not freedom of speech, it's harmful to society.
Calling the German police "murderers" is idiotic; only 11 people were shot in 2016.
As comparison, the Washington Post lists 963 fatal police shootings in the US for 2016.
Man with Knife
Member
If that's true, it's good they got shut down
PdotMichael
Banned
I mean the RAF was totally not a thing in Germany.
D
Deleted member 98878
Unconfirmed Member
for example
first name/last name/street address/postcode/city/e-mail/phone number/DoB/(party) membership number
crowphoenix
Banned
Really why should you settle for mediocre extremism? It costs the same and they want just as much of a tip.
The extreme left often oversteps boundaries too and sometimes needs to be reigned in. The raid found plenty of weapons so there was an actual threat here.
That's because the extreme right is under intense surveillance and scrutiny and they know that any wrong move gets their groups and marches banned immediately while the extreme left is more open and careless. Demonstrations by the extreme right are much less likely to descend into violence (unless the police fucks up and the counterprotesters get to them). The extreme right is still more dangerous but they're sneakier.
That's something different. If you include hate speech, that's correct. If you talk about violent crimes (Koerperverletzung) and criminal damage (Sachbeschaedigung), it's different. Though at least for violent crimes the numbers apparently changed last year, so that one is higher for right-wing motivated cases now:
That's because the extreme right is under intense surveillance and scrutiny and they know that any wrong move gets their groups and marches banned immediately while the extreme left is more open and careless. Demonstrations by the extreme right are much less likely to descend into violence (unless the police fucks up and the counterprotesters get to them). The extreme right is still more dangerous but they're sneakier.
PdotMichael
Banned
It's pretty simple. If you call for violence against a group of people you are already violating the very first article of the Basic Law.
(1) Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.
(2) The German people therefore acknowledge inviolable and inalienable human rights as the basis of every community, of peace and of justice in the world.
So this isn't Germany becoming a police state because limitations were placed on free speech?
No?
Muffin1611
Banned
Limitations on free speech of this kind are almost sixty years old.
AcademicSaucer
Member
PdotMichael
Banned
Well, the USA not just went a massive propaganda campaign against anything socialist they just plain banned any revolutionary group - Smith Act, COINTELPRO, McCarthy's antics.
Glorious freedom of speech! Gonna teach me more about it, GAF!
Defending hate speech, hm?
I welcome this move. It has the drawback that the police won't be able to monitor the left scene with this site anymore, but another one will pop up eventually. Extremist webpages always do, in one form or another.
The next step should be shutting down the Red Flora in Hamburg. They have shown the world that they cannot protest non-violently, so they have lost the right to be part of any social movement. The Antifa is a bloody stain on any form of activism.
Rote Flora actually opposed the overstated violence, followed the demands of the police and has the backing of the people in the area, including store owners.
But okay. You have already setup your worldview, so I might as well talk with a wall.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction
Germany has seen a bit more of this than the US or Britain
Germany has seen a bit more of this than the US or Britain
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Both sides, huh? Any thoughts on Charlotte while you're pontificating?
Seems to work pretty well then. If surveillance and intense scrutiny help prevent extremist crimes, as you suggest, then such surveillance on the extremist left should also be intensified - instead of saying there's no issue with left-wing extremism as the Linke and parts of the SPD do.
The Rote Flora didn't defend it, their lawyer just said it should be done in the richer districts of Hamburg
Others from the Rote Flora were actually more clever than that guy (or as KDR_11k would say: "sneakier") and didn't endorse the violence publicly.Just because left extremists barely exist in the USA doesn't that's the same everywhere in europe.
Germany specifically has quite a bit of history in this regard.
Indymedia has usually been savy enough to avoid trouble but after the G20 protests, someone was going to take a closer look to say they did something.
waveuponwave
Member
I hate the AFD but doxxing people like this is really shitty. Protest their politics, keep the private lives of party members out of this
There was a case in Berlin where people launched a campaign against a dentist because he joined the AFD, including protests in front of his practice, flyers to his patients etc and that takes anti-AFD activism way too far.
If there's evidence that someone discriminated against people in his job, sure, go for it. But as long as that's not the case everyone should have a right to privacy
That's something different. If you include hate speech, that's correct. If you talk about violent crimes (Koerperverletzung) and criminal damage (Sachbeschaedigung), it's different. Though at least for violent crimes the numbers apparently changed last year, so that one is higher for right-wing motivated cases now:
Try to take a look at the original data. This really is a perfect example for omitting lots of data and not getting the whole picture. This is what it actually looks like:
There is a lot more shit coming from the right side. What you just showed is misleading (looks like a FAZ article?).
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Not when you have someone in this thread claiming their the same as idealists as well.
Frankfurter
Member
I'm undecided on this. I'd like the owners of the website to sue to see what happens. Free speech isn't unlimited over here (it isn't unlimited in the US either, but anyway), but there need to be very good reasons to limit it in this kind of way.
Muffin1611
Banned
Don't bother. I gave him these exact statistics in a past thread already. It's on purpose.
Frankfurter
Member
I'm curious, is there this kind of data for more years, going back, say, all the way until ~2000?
Salty Rice
Member
After what happened in Hamburg good.
Fuck these guys.
Fuck these guys.
He was specifically talking about violent crimes (gewalttaten). The stats look relatively close there.
ClosingADoor
Member
But isn't that stuff from the right mostly propaganda and incitement to hatred. Which, like the other poster said, is not the violent crime part. The rest seems to be pretty even.
PdotMichael
Banned
Looking at the violence the gap isn't that big. Like there were more violence related crimes by the extremist left in 2015.
Bitch Pudding
Member
Took them way too long.
Muffin1611
Banned
They are relatively close, but looking at the breakdown it includes things like trespassing property or resisting arrest, which makes left extremism about even.
I think the asymmetry is what keeps the neonazi marches calmer. If counter demonstrations were dissolved as easily as their marches then the neonazis would face little opposition and the massive police cordons around their rally would shrink. Plus the neonazis would feel protected by the state and unopposed, this would allow them to grow like in the US. Denazification is an important process.
The extreme left is less of a threat to democracy as a whole (and a threat to democracy is the legal justification for banning neonazi operations).
Right, you're correct. That's what he said. I'm just a bit startled that you would want to focus on two indicators that are close and neglect everything else. You can't just pick to numbers and then say "look, they are the same!". We definitely shouldn't do that.
Yes, I did look at the original data and the right-wing cases are just much higher because of propaganda and hate speech. The really dangerous stuff where people are assaulted or their property gets damaged has about the same amount of cases on both sides (as shown in the table above).
Unless you want to argue that propaganda and hate speech is as bad as assaulting a person or setting refugee homes on fire.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I'd be genuinely curious how those stats would split depending on the severity of violent crimes.
This is my bias speaking but I don't recall many attempted murders that are motivated by the extreme left but I can for many murders or attempted by right wing if not stra8ght nazis
Check this post:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=247022398&postcount=77
That user has the detailed tables from the Verfassungsschutzbericht 2016.
The number is - thankfully - relatively small on both sides.
travisbickle
Member
yep
German police has killed less people in over 50 years than the US police does in a year.
There were (are?) organisations like the RAF that acted the same as terror organisations and killed innocent people
Well, the website was shut down based on the promotion of violent acts, so measuring violent acts of the supporters seems logical enough.
But really, the dick measuring is irrelevant. If the content of the site is deemed to be illegal, then it should be shut down, regardless of whether it is left-wing or right-wing. That doesn't mean that the actions both political groups are equal (we all know how Gaf loves saying "both sides"). But in terms of criminal prosecution, it really should be equally enforced on both sides, as that's kind of the point of the legal system.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
thanks that sounds about right with how I perceived it.
regardless you should look at these numbers proportionally rather than totally considering there's 4 times as many people living in the US
PdotMichael
Banned
Yes, the American police only shoots 25x so many people as the German police. It's all relative!