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New Algorithm to Depixilize Pixel Art is Magical.

T

TheExodu5

Banned
Princess Skittles said:
Other than the incorrect aspect ratio by using square pixels, this is pretty much exactly how the games looks over CRT with the SNES hooked up via s-video.
Click to expand...

They really don't.

Also, here's the "correct" aspect ratio:

ff6_bad2.png


But this is a 5:4 ratio, and on a CRT TV, the image would have been stretched to 4:3, hence the rectangular pixels. Notice the tops of the cylindrical towers. In 5:4, they're ellipses, while in 4:3, they're actually circular. They were meant to be displayed in 4:3.

Here's the shot with the CRT filter, at 4:3 (with a bit more accurate brightness level)

ff6a_scaled2.png


But really, try looking on a CRT TV...the pixels are not square/rectangular at all. They are very much rounded.

edit: woops, slightly different shot...no chocobos in the top shot! Oh well.
 
T

Tain

Member
Princess Skittles said:
Other than the incorrect aspect ratio by using square pixels, this is pretty much exactly how the games looks over CRT with the SNES hooked up via s-video.
Click to expand...

Definitely not on my CRTs. scanlines and blur.

I sit kinda close to them, though.
 
R

Rustymonke

Member
Orayn said:
On the contrary - Because of the inherent flaws of CRT, that's exactly what it was meant to look like. CRT is presumably what these games were developed and playtested for. The curvature, the color gamut, the shape of the pixels, everything.
Click to expand...
Why is this concept so hard for people to grasp?
 
M

Mael

Member
I knew something bothered me with the square looking charaters in FFVI...

Imbarkus said:
I suppose I would agree with most posters here that this is pretty useless when applied to actual pixel art, which has a beauty all it's own.

But speaking as a guy who has had to do graphic design in the dirty messy real world where business guys often don't have anything to give you for their own logo other than some low res scan someone did for them years ago, this shit looks like it might be pretty useful. I haven't bothered with Livetrace in a while, and Genuine Fractals has also disappointed me greatly, so I pretty much have taken to the habit of just spending time recreating low res images if I need them in high res.

This could be a big time saver.
Click to expand...

Then it's a wonder they didn't use that as an example instead of the horrible examples they used.
 
S

sajj316

Member
after reading some of the posts in this thread .. isn't it all about preference. Some like scan-line and want to make it as close to CRT as possible. Some like no filter. Some like these hq4x filters currently offered on recent version emus. To each his own. I personally don't have a problem playing with hq filters.

tech is phenomenal though, no question.
 
S

soldat7

Member
finalozzo said:
really cool, only Ax Battler is horrible.
Click to expand...

They're all horrible, especially the Space Invaders. I can't believe anyone would want to spoil beautiful pixel art like this. Sure, the algorithm is neat and I'm sure there are a variety of valid applications, but certainly not in gaming.
 
NeonZ

NeonZ

Member
Why do people even like scanline filters at all? When I look at the screen of an old tv set, I don't see a bunch of black lines across the screen. That kind of artifact only appeared if you took a picture of the tv... so I don't see the advantage at all. The games weren't originally designed to run in that state.
 
I

Imbarkus

As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
Mael said:
I knew something bothered me with the square looking charaters in FFVI...



Then it's a wonder they didn't use that as an example instead of the horrible examples they used.
Click to expand...

Even better question is why even post this on the gaming boards...
 
T

TheExodu5

Banned
NeonZ said:
Why do people even like scanline filters at all? When I look at the screen of an old tv set, I don't see a bunch of black lines across the screen. That kind of artifact only appeared if you took a picture of the tv... so I don't see the advantage at all.
Click to expand...

I'm not a huge fan of scanlines myself...especially in any of the filters I've seen so far. There was just one shot I've seen that had scanlines and curvature so right, I thought I was actually looking a picture of the game running on a TV.
 
M

Mael

Member
Imbarkus said:
Even better question is why even post this on the gaming boards...
Click to expand...

Well to be fair the Gaffer who posted that saw a bunch of gaming picture thought it could be neatly applied to emulators or what have you and then posted away.
I doubt the OP is part of the project or yeah that was a stupid move...
 
F

Fersis

It is illegal to Tag Fish in Tag Fishing Sanctuaries by law 38.36 of the GAF Wildlife Act
BREAKING:
New Magical algorithm developed in Japan:
Input
battlefield3_08-w800-550x309.jpg


Output:
metal-slug-3-big.gif


BAM! HARRY POTTER'D!!
 
linko9

linko9

Member
Well, this is by far the best filter I've seen, so that's cool. Sometimes I like to play games with a filter on just for fun, it mixes things up. But I pretty much always try to stick with unfiltered, even when playing on an LCD (obviously with a CRT I'd never use a filter).
 
T

Tain

Member
NeonZ said:
Why do people even like scanline filters at all? When I look at the screen of an old tv set, I don't see a bunch of black lines across the screen. That kind of artifact only appeared if you took a picture of the tv... so I don't see the advantage at all.
Click to expand...

It's pretty easy to see unless you're sitting across the room or something.

Every time I see an arcade monitor running a low-res game, the scanlines are easily visible.
 
L

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
WOW. That new Mame HLSL filter is completely amazing. I've seen other CRT RGB filters but that one is by far the best.

As for this new clipart filter, fine I guess, this kind of thing works for some games, sometimes.
 
S

soldat7

Member
Tain said:
It's pretty easy to see unless you're sitting across the room or something.

Every time I see an arcade monitor running a low-res game, the scanlines are easily visible.
Click to expand...

They did a wonderful job of this for Final Fight: Double Impact. Looks just like it did at the 7-Eleven back in the day.
 
D

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
You know, this topic reminds me of the fact that I annoyed I can not longer make emulators play in their native resolution on a CRT. Windows 98, on board video chip, no problem. But today, Window's refuses to let my monitor below 640x480. Heck, if I try to test any resolution lower in the Nvidia control panel, Windows flat out crashes.

At least I can do native 640x480 on my CRT.
 
S

Seraphinianus

Banned
put me in the "don't fuck with pixels" camp.

I like filters that attempt to emulate CRT, but smoothing is yuck. Even a nicer algorithm like this makes human shapes look like blobs. A whole screenshot of Golden Axe would look like bad claymation.

Even the PhotoZoom 4 comparison pic retains the detail in his face.
 
S

Seraphinianus

Banned
The Lamp said:
This is kind of neat. The overreactions in this thread are hilarious. Keep convincing people to take gamers seriously.
Click to expand...


yes, this was a key issue in the gamer seriousness quotient and we totally dropped the ball for having a different opinion than you.
 
T

Tain

Member
onken said:
So I've got the latest MAME release, how do I turn that crazy awesome filter on?
Click to expand...

Specifically, you need something based on 142u4, like the latest MAMEUI. If you check the mame.ini file (under the ini folder) you'll see all the options under "DIRECT3D POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS". They're not in the UI yet, unfortunately.

drkirby said:
You know, this topic reminds me of the fact that I annoyed I can not longer make emulators play in their native resolution on a CRT. Windows 98, on board video chip, no problem. But today, Window's refuses to let my monitor below 640x480. Heck, if I try to test any resolution lower in the Nvidia control panel, Windows flat out crashes.

At least I can do native 640x480 on my CRT.
Click to expand...

That's the video card more than anything, I think. I remember getting an ArcadeVGA card to output in a million different low resolutions, but it wound out kinda useless for me because the refresh rates were so off.

The Lamp said:
This is kind of neat. The overreactions in this thread are hilarious. Keep convincing people to take gamers seriously.
Click to expand...

Who gives a shit about that? Why would someone give a shit about that?
 
onken

onken

Member
Tain said:
Specifically, you need something based on 142u4, like the latest MAMEUI. If you check the mame.ini file (under the ini folder) you'll see all the options under "DIRECT3D POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS". They're not in the UI yet, unfortunately.
?
Click to expand...

Cool, do you still have to use an effect though?
 
B

Baron Aloha

A Shining Example
I haven't been able to look at the paper yet but from the screenshots in the OP this doesn't seem any different than HQ2X, HQ3X, etc.

Edit: OK, I just noticed there are HQ4X comparisons there. Guess they are different, but not that different IMO.
 
T

Tain

Member
Nah, leave the normal MAME "effect" option turned off. Just enable the HLSL stuff, and then play with the numbers. Left at their defaults, the HLSL settings won't make a visual difference.

And if you haven't used much MAME, I'd suggest turning on "Sync to Monitor Refresh" and turning off "Throttle" for most games. Gets rid of screen tearing without giving the lag that comes with vsync/triple buffering.
 
I

infinityBCRT

Member
I'd like to see a filter which renders pixels as soft circles instead of squares like most of these CRT/scanlien recreation filters are doing.
 
L

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
infinityBCRT said:
I'd like to see a filter which renders pixels as soft circles instead of squares like most of these CRT/scanlien recreation filters are doing.
Click to expand...
The one presented in this thread does just that.
 
J

jaypah

Member
I love pixel art but filters can be fun too. It makes my classics that I've seen a million times look different/zany. When i tire of them i turn them off and my pixels return. Its just an option. But i was always like that, hunting down game genie codes that only changed the color of the background or adjusting the hue on my TV to make the game look different. "Today megaman you shall be purple!". I understand filters aren't for everybody but that's why its an option. Thanks for sharing OP!
 
Z

Zombie James

Banned
TheExodu5 said:
They really don't.

Also, here's the "correct" aspect ratio:

[ig]http://www.thejayzone.com/pics/snes/ff6_bad2.png[/img]

But this is a 5:4 ratio, and on a CRT TV, the image would have been stretched to 4:3, hence the rectangular pixels. Notice the tops of the cylindrical towers. In 5:4, they're ellipses, while in 4:3, they're actually circular. They were meant to be displayed in 4:3.

Here's the shot with the CRT filter, at 4:3 (with a bit more accurate brightness level)

[ig]http://www.thejayzone.com/pics/snes/ff6a_scaled2.png[/img]

But really, try looking on a CRT TV...the pixels are not square/rectangular at all. They are very much rounded.

edit: woops, slightly different shot...no chocobos in the top shot! Oh well.
Click to expand...

What filter or shader is this?
 
I

infinityBCRT

Member
Lord Error said:
The one presented in this thread does just that.
Click to expand...
HLSL? Its also introducing artifacts that are limitations of CRTs as well though (deformation, discolouration-- I think, scanlines-- which aren't necessarily bad but I'd like to see a filter without it)
 
Oppo

Oppo

Member
Orayn said:
On the contrary - Because of the inherent flaws of CRT, that's exactly what it was meant to look like. CRT is presumably what these games were developed and playtested for. The curvature, the color gamut, the shape of the pixels, everything.
Click to expand...

Welllll.... sort of.

I've been making computer art for a long long time now and I can tell you that you are sort of right, but there was never any remote amount of precision to it. Dithering was a big deal, shadowing was a big deal.

But as for curvature of CRT, overscan, interlacing, gamut/NTSC.... you never had any idea of what your user was going to see in the end, the variation between CRT sets is so massive. Some of them didn't even have colour. :)

So while it's technically correct that good pixel artists anticipated distortion and a wide colour shift, there wasn't that much you could actually do about it, other than try not to make something so fiddly that it could get lost in some dot crawl or whatever.

It wasn't like, oh the CRT will have 15% curvature at these points, so I will correct for that... you had no idea, it was a total crap shoot. You just knew the IQ would get worse but you didn't really know how.
 
CamHostage

CamHostage

Member
As a filter it looks strong. Maybe not so spectacular at preserving details when the pixels are finely tuned for each possible color (Golden Axe looks like a cartoon blob, but it's impressively smooth for outlines and simple art.

I would like to see this in motion however. If the lines don't flow together right then the results are worthless. We've also got to see how this composites sprites against a background.

And of course, this is only good as a filter. Any release using it (assuming it isn't a new game, at which point I'm not sure why they'd use pixel art and then filter it like crazy, but maybe it'd be interesting?) would pretty much have to have the original art as an option or else no thanks.
 
K

KittenMaster

Member
CRT and blurry monitors are definitely how pixel art was designed back then and the best way to hide pixels without ruining art design. However; we need to keep in mind that filters like this don't really give us a proper replacement.
 
I

infinityBCRT

Member
PortTwo said:
Welllll.... sort of.

I've been making computer art for a long long time now and I can tell you that you are sort of right, but there was never any remote amount of precision to it. Dithering was a big deal, shadowing was a big deal.

But as for curvature of CRT, overscan, interlacing, gamut/NTSC.... you never had any idea of what your user was going to see in the end, the variation between CRT sets is so massive. Some of them didn't even have colour. :)

So while it's technically correct that good pixel artists anticipated distortion and a wide colour shift, there wasn't that much you could actually do about it, other than try not to make something so fiddly that it could get lost in some dot crawl or whatever.

It wasn't like, oh the CRT will have 15% curvature at these points, so I will correct for that... you had no idea, it was a total crap shoot. You just knew the IQ would get worse but you didn't really know how.
Click to expand...

Yeah... if you look at a game like MK1/2/3, while the game runs in 4:3 and the backgrounds were drawn in 4:3, the resolution is actually 400x256 which if displayed with square pixels would be a 16:10 resolution and the character sprites look like they were designed for a 16:10 resolution. If you put the game in widescreen the characters don't look stretched because of this (but you can tell the backgrounds are stretched if they have any circular objects).

The early EA NHL games ran in a 256x256 resolution. When they ported it to PC it ran in a 320x200 resolution. So on Genesis, those sprites looked fat. On PC they looked a lot better as it was closer to the 4:3 aspect ratio. On SNES they even ended up redrawing the sprites to match the aspect ratio of the PC version.
 
L

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
infinityBCRT said:
HLSL? Its also introducing artifacts that are limitations of CRTs as well though (deformation, discolouration-- I think, scanlines-- which aren't necessarily bad but I'd like to see a filter without it)
Click to expand...
Looks like you can control every aspect of it, so you can disable the curvature for example, or control how much you want of it.
 
T

TheExodu5

Banned
Zombie James said:
What filter or shader is this?
Click to expand...

BSNES's NTSC filter. (I think it's blaarg's NTSC filter...I've seen it in ZSNES or SNES9x I think, but it didn't look nearly as nice). I set it to the RGB preset (though you can set RF, Composite, and S-Video as well), and calibrated the brightness to avoid any black crush.
 
T

TheExodu5

Banned
KittenMaster said:
CRT and blurry monitors are definitely how pixel art was designed back then and the best way to hide pixels without ruining art design. However; we need to keep in mind that filters like this don't really give us a proper replacement.
Click to expand...

There's nothing preventing us from accurately reproducing the image we would see on a CRT. A CRT has a specific input response, and that input response just needs to be replicated through the use of filters. There's no technical barrier here...it's just that not many people are interested in doing this. If you had someone with a good knowledge of digital imaging systems, they could build you a filter (which, with GPUs, are ridiculously easy to implement) to replicate the image of a CRT.

Building the filters is easy. You just create them in something like MATLab, apply them to the image, and if they work out, implement them as GPU shaders.

The only real technical limitations we have with modern displays are static contrast ratios and motion. In that sense, you won't quite replicate a top of the line CRT. But besides the motion and input lag, you really won't be far off at all.

edit: there's also scaling...but that will also highly depend on your display's resolution. The higher the resolution, the better the potential scaling. If you're scaling to a resolution that's a multiple of the original, then you shouldn't have any scaling artifacts at all. Take the raw image at the top of this page, for example. Zero scaling artifacts.
 
V

Version 3.0

Member
I'm impressed by filters from a tech standpoint, and I've sometimes fiddled with them and did a side-by-side with a real SNES, for example. But the goal should be to make my HDTV/Monitor look like a real SNES and CRT TV (or whatever) looks, not magically transport us into "no pointy edges cartoon world".

I don't like the splotches and blobs, and not everything is supposed to be curvy and rounded in any case.
 
Z

Zombie James

Banned
TheExodu5 said:
BSNES's NTSC filter. (I think it's blaarg's NTSC filter...I've seen it in ZSNES or SNES9x I think, but it didn't look nearly as nice). I set it to the RGB preset (though you can set RF, Composite, and S-Video as well), and calibrated the brightness to avoid any black crush.
Click to expand...

Thanks, it looks really good in that screenshot.
 
S

Somnid

Member
Nearest-neighbor is really the only way to go. Just enhance what it was already doing, not simulate the artifacts or introduce new ones.
 
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