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Cujshi · Jul 12, 2011

sorry to disappoint you, but I do not declare myself as Christian. I believe in Jesus, but I am not a follower of any known Christian subgroup.

For me, Jesus's words are enough, and I dont need old geezers and child molesters to tell me what's right.

And, I believe in Jesus that was not Jedi. My Jesus doesnt have "The force" he is just a regular guy that was closest to God, and we should all follow his path.

in other words, referencing the Holy Trinity - Jesus the Son showed us the beauty of Holy spirit, that would, when followed, take us back to the Father.

Jasup said:
Oh, sorry it took me so long to answer. Some of my friends came to visit.

Honest answer: No. Eternal life (in whatever form) sounds like pure torture. Infinity of boredom, even if it's "happy" boredom.

What keeps me going on is a) interest on what's happening around me b) small mysteries in the universe c) trying to make a little better for me and my fellow human beings (it's my chosen profession)

World is such an interesting place I don't want to leave this life. But if life was eternal and I would be granted all the knowledge in the universe - there would be nothing else to know, nothing else to search or nothing else to find anymore, and that would only be the first day of eternity. I'd have to give up my conscience in order to do that.

And no, I would not live an eternal life knowing there are people living in eternal torture. And as I'm writing this I'll make a deal with your God: I'll willingly go to to suffer eternal torture if he's willing to take even just one soul out from hell.

Minding about my own salvation is just selfish and wrong.

Plus, I'm perfectly fine with the idea that someday I just won't exist anymore.

have you ever tried to take your head out of the Box, and think for one second that afterlife is not defined by time ?

yeah, now you're going to ask me - then how is it defined ? so, let's jump right to the answer -

I dont know. *insert trollface*

But, im curious about it. and, removing time from equation (or adding something more complex than time) makes the taught of afterlife rather interesting. It is a MISTAKE to consider time, as a benefit of existence, time is actually a handicap! but it is really hard to even imagine that kind of existence, so at this point, im not able to give you an answer, but an Idea.

and one more thing - Eternity/Infinity is only a mathematical concept. according to MOST mainstream theories, there is no such thing. Universe is limited cause it's a bubble, at best - time is only partially infinite (in one direction) cause it has a starting point (BB, but it will most probably collapse/stretch, numbers are infinite but there are no things unmeasurable, cause everything has a total.

Noirulus · Jul 12, 2011

mike23 said:
You misundestood me. I wasn't arguing for religion. I am an extreme atheist. I was just pointing out that science can never explain religion.

I'm quite sorry about that. I just woke up when I typed that up >_<

Jasup · Jul 12, 2011

Cujshi said:
have you ever tried to take your head out of the Box, and think for one second that afterlife is not defined by time ?

yeah, now you're going to ask me - then how is it defined ? so, let's jump right to the answer -

I dont know. *insert trollface*

But, im curious about it. and, removing time from equation (or adding something more complex than time) makes the taught of afterlife rather interesting. It is a MISTAKE to consider time, as a benefit of existence, time is actually a handicap! but it is really hard to even imagine that kind of existence, so at this point, im not able to give you an answer, but an Idea.

and one more thing - Eternity/Infinity is only a mathematical concept. according to MOST mainstream theories, there is no such thing. Universe is limited cause it's a bubble, at best - time is only partially infinite (in one direction) cause it has a starting point (BB, but it will most probably collapse/stretch, numbers are infinite but there are no things unmeasurable, cause everything has a total.

So what's the difference between eternity and non-existence when both are both?

Atramental · Jul 12, 2011

So Cujshi, if you're not a Christian what are you exactly? Is there a specific name for your belief system?

The reason why I wondered if you were a new age mystic is because I hear about these new agers including Jesus and many other "holy" men and women into their belief systems.

Kinitari · Jul 12, 2011

On Morality -

Why does it have to be objective? Why can't it simply be an accumulation of subjective opinions that you personally find to be the 'best'. If things are 'getting better' - it's only because we personally percieve it so. To some, it is getting worse because maybe they don't feel the direction we are heading in is 'good' - and are they more or less right than us? I don't think they are either, I think morality is in essence - weightless. So I assign it my own weight, and judge it myself. Who better than myself to decide what is good or bad?

Dude Abides · Jul 12, 2011

The_Darkest_Red said:
Sure, why not. When I look at where I am in my life right now I realize that I couldn't have made it here on my own. I know myself better than anyone and I know that deep down inside I am a ridiculously prideful, sarcastic, hateful, selfish, and quite frankly disgusting human being. However, ever since I have given my life to Christ I have found myself becoming more humble, less hatefully sarcastic, less selfish, and less disgusting. I'm not saying I'm perfect or that I'm some immaculate specimen of a human being, because like I said I couldn't do it on my own, but I am 100% convinced that there is something and someone supernatural helping me out in my day to day life. Some will say that it's all just psychology, that there is nothing there other than my own thoughts and ill-informed logic shaping my thought patterns into something different (some may even bold this sentence and say "this" in a post), but I just can't buy that. It's just too powerful to brush aside as something like that.

Are you sure you read The Bible and not The Secret?

Fernando Rocker · Jul 12, 2011

Funny how some of the atheists in this thread have avatar with demons.

Count Dookkake · Jul 12, 2011

Fernando Rocker said:
Funny how some of the atheists in this thread have avatar with demons.

Funny how some of the theists in this thread have avatars with heroic artificial men.

Creating life is the province of god, right?

Atramental · Jul 12, 2011

Fernando Rocker said:
Funny how some of the atheists in this thread have avatar with demons.

Yeah but that doesn't mean I'm a Satan worshiper.

If anything, I have Satan as an avatar to troll Christians because some of them believe that we are Satan worshipers.
http://youtu.be/93MfGZAcw5o

Kinitari · Jul 12, 2011

Fernando Rocker said:
Funny how some of the atheists in this thread have avatar with demons.

Mine is of a Minotaur, it's what I play in DnD, lawful good. It used to be a scrubs gif.

Or! I'm the king of Satan worshipers. Or, something else demonic. Lol

DragonGirl · Jul 12, 2011

Fernando Rocker said:
Funny how some of the atheists in this thread have avatar with demons.

Mine is of me wearing a dragon mask of my own creation. I am the god of this mask.

Jasup · Jul 12, 2011

Kinitari said:
Mine is of a Minotaur,

Oh, so it is.. I never looked at it closely and thought the other horn was a tail. Does this mean you worship Odin?

Kinitari · Jul 12, 2011

Jasup said:
Oh, so it is.. I never looked at it closely and thought the other horn was a tail. Does this mean you worship Odin?

If I could choose a God, it would totally be odin. The dude is boss. Has a kickass spear, a six legged horse, is always getting into scraps! Crazy.

Dai101 · Jul 12, 2011

Kinitari said:
If I could choose a God, it would totally be odin. The dude is boss. Has a kickass spear, a six legged horse, is always getting into scraps! Crazy.

Somehow related:

Jasup · Jul 12, 2011

Aww, I just realised I got my pantheons mixed... Minotaur is the son of Zeus.

Odin is the Norse god, equivalent of Ukko in my local tradition. Odin has a hammer and Zeus is a dirty old lecher - big difference.

This is quite embarrassing.

Leunam · Jul 12, 2011

Kinitari said:
Mine is of a Minotaur, it's what I play in DnD, lawful good.

Is this a 4th ED thing or can I find it in a 3.5 book?

Sibylus · Jul 12, 2011

DragonGirl said:
Ten beautiful lies about Jesus.

Is Jesus even an actual historical figure? I've always been in the "he's a composite figure" camp.

I've little doubt he was a religious figure of some sort and was executed by the Romans, but I think it a plausible suggestion that a number of his sayings, parables, and doings originated from the wider Christian and Jewish tradition. Kind of analogous to the thinking that a number of Solomon's proverbs were attributed to him by other authors, possibly wishing for their writings to be associated with such.

JGS · Jul 12, 2011

DragonGirl said:
Ten beautiful lies about Jesus.

Well, heck, if David Fitzgerald wrote it, it has to be true!

I love Dave apparently

The ten myths mentions have some that are truthful (Biblically so), some that are not, some that are kinda (like the Gospel myth that is always brought up but never in a million years proven by anything beyond the statements) and some that can't be proven in either direction. None of the accurate myths of course have nothing to do with Jesus existing so they are pointless.

NullPointer · Jul 12, 2011

Fernando Rocker said:
Funny how some of the atheists in this thread have avatar with demons.

All the more reason not to fear demons or other sundry boogeymen.

Pixel Pete · Jul 12, 2011

Fernando Rocker said:
Honest question... don't you like the idea of eternal life full of happiness next to our Creator instead of just dying and that's it?

An Atheistic lifestyle is more life affirming than a religious lifestyle (presuming a religion with an afterlife) can ever logically be.

Life is so sweet because it happens but once.

Dude Abides · Jul 12, 2011

JGS said:
Well, heck, if David Fitzgerald wrote it, it has to be true!

I love Dave apparently

If only his name was Luke.

JGS · Jul 12, 2011

Pixel Pete said:
An Atheistic lifestyle is more life affirming than a religious lifestyle (presuming a religion with an afterlife) can ever logically be.

Life is so sweet because it happens but once.

Why?

Or was your second sentence the reason?
EDIT: Nvm, I missed the afterlife part. Can I assume that religions not big on after life stuff are as life- affirming? Actually, I'm not sure what belief in an after-life has to do life being sweet now.

Pixel Pete · Jul 12, 2011

JGS said:
Why?

Or was your second sentence the reason?
EDIT: Nvm, I missed the afterlife part. Can I assume that religions not big on after life stuff are as life- affirming? Actually, I'm not sure what belief in an after-life has to do life being sweet now.

I live my life with the knowledge that's it's the only one I will get.

Now, not to suggest that your life won't be awesome, fulfilling, exciting, loving and memorable (while you're still alive), but you live it with the assumption that you keep going after you die. You can't logically impart as much meaning into your life as someone who only has one finite life.

This cup of coffee I'm drinking is pretty awesome. But if it was the last cup of coffee I would ever drink? It'd be worth so much more.

SO MUCH of religion's origins can be traced back to the fear of death. So much. I'm not personally afraid to die. Pain of death won't be nice, but death itself doesn't bother me.

As Mark Twain said: "I'm not afraid of death. I was dead for billions of years before I was born and it didn't bother me in the slightest."

NullPointer · Jul 12, 2011

JGS said:
Why?

You will not be reunited with loved ones in an afterlife so every moment you share in this life matters.

You don't act with empathy out of a fear of being judged in an afterlife, but because its the right thing to do.

God will not repair the world at some further point down the road, so stewardship of your planet matters for the long term. In the same manner there is no preparation for the end times to take your eyes off the ball of living sustainably.

That's my take anyway.

Pixel Pete said:
As Mark Twain said: "I'm not afraid of death. I was dead for billions of years before I was born and it didn't bother me in the slightest."

Great point and great quote

Pixel Pete · Jul 12, 2011

icarus-daedelus said:
Call this atheism or no, but it is an interesting refutation to the idea that humans somehow have an innate attachment to or need for belief in higher powers.

I think, in part, we owe it to our attachment to ritual.

Amir0x · Jul 12, 2011

Fernando Rocker said:
Funny how some of the atheists in this thread have avatar with demons.

you don't know how hard i lol'd in real life at this little bit of precious absurdity. what an outrageous comment, Fernando. but hilarious

Fernando Rocker said:
The Bible is God's words.

The Bible is not the word of men inspired by God but the actual Word of God.

How is this so? We don't actually have the original words that all the Biblical manuscripts are based on. We only have horrendously transcribed versions that have literally hundreds of thousands of errors, both small and significant.

How can something be the 'word of God' if we don't even actually HAVE the word of God as it was originally written down?

Seems suspicious. We have at least 2,000 significant changes that literally throw entire belief standards into question and at least 250 changes that are so hotly debated they still can't get agreement among Biblical scholars. Changes so large they literally change doctrine.

How can something be the divine word of God if we don't actually have the word, but thousands upon thousands of various copies filled with errors that came down hundreds of years after the fact?

The earliest manuscripts, which aren't even complete because they're so degraded, come from the second century and don't even contain all the books of the new testament.

Seems to me that if God was actually involved this problem wouldn't exist.

DefectiveReject · Jul 12, 2011

Lead people to believe for years and years in a Magical Man who can encircle the world in one night, leaving vast swathes of presents in his midst. A rabbit that leaves chocolate eggs for you. A fairy that collects teeth from childrens pillows as they sleep leaving behind local currency.
Tell that person then, they don't really exist and were purely tools used in childhood to make it magical. And with time and a little understanding they come to terms and move on.

Tell a person though that ONE being didn't create all that exists, won't be there for you when you die, really didn't have a son at 13bn years old with a random lady (surely he could of just magiced one out of nothing....right), a tool used in the dark ages to control man and gain power and authority.

But no matter how much time and effort you put in, that person can't or won't take that on board.

Beggars belief

Botolf said:
I've little doubt he was a religious figure of some sort and was executed by the Romans, but I think it a plausible suggestion that a number of his sayings, parables, and doings originated from the wider Christian and Jewish tradition. Kind of analogous to the thinking that a number of Solomon's proverbs were attributed to him by other authors, possibly wishing for their writings to be associated with such.

I think he was more of a David Copperfield of his time, a master magician or even a con artist.
Or even a crazy cultist who people fell for. Or even or three

DragonGirl · Jul 12, 2011

icarus-daedelus said:
I know this was posted like 30 pages ago but I was paging through the thread and I thought I'd throw something out there.

The oldest mode of religion, as opposed to, say, monotheism or polytheism, is animism, which generally encompasses religions that encourage belief in a) the existence of spirits which b) are present in all aspects of an environment (humans, plants, rocks, etc). This puts these aspects on an equal level (usually within the sacred space of this world/environment/universe) rather than placing these things below some kind of *higher* power.

Although these religions may have been categorized as including 'irrational' or 'supernatural' beliefs, they did not address the existence or nonexistence of one or more gods, but they also did not include them, either.

So, extrapolating from the best evidence we have - that is, record of indigenous cultures prior to colonial contact as separate geographically and temporally as the Inuit and Aboriginal Australians - the dominant mode of human thinking re: religion for most of the existence of the species (say, 200k years minus the last 5k to 10k) as best we can tell likely did not include any conception of god or gods.

Call this atheism or no, but it is an interesting refutation to the idea that humans somehow have an innate attachment to or need for belief in higher powers.

Also these people.

jay · Jul 12, 2011

Fernando Rocker said:
Funny how some of the atheists in this thread have avatar with demons.

Is it that they subconsciously believe and know heaven and hell are real and this inherent understanding reveals itself through avatar selection, or that they're secretly demons who are on a video game forum in order to destroy the souls of any who will listen, yet not clever enough to not advertise that they are demonic?

Both are awesome (and true) but I'm not sure which you're implying.

Amir0x · Jul 12, 2011

Cyan said:
I'm fond of this quote: "What is true is already so. Owning up to it doesn't make it worse. Not being open about it doesn't make it go away. And because it's true, it is what is there to be interacted with. Anything untrue isn't there to be lived. People can stand what is true, for they are already enduring it. " - Gendlin

I always liked Richard Bentley's commentary about the uproar about Mills finding of some thirty thousand variations among the Biblical texts. It caused an outrage, particularly among Protestants, because they believe Catholics would use it as proof that the Bible is not the sole source of Godly knowledge but the Apostolic Tradition through the church must also be utilized as guide. But Bentley pointed something simple out, and this applies to all truths:

You can't render something insecure by simply pointing out something that has always been there, since whether you noticed them or not they existed with or without your approval.

Richard Bentley said:
If we are to believe not only this wise author [collins] but a wiser Doctor of your own [Whitby], He [Mill] was labouring all that while, to prove the Text of the Scripture precarious... for what is it, that your Whitbyus so inveighs and exclaims at? The Doctor's Labours, says he, make the whole Text precarious; and expose both the Reformation to the Papists, and Religion itself to the Atheists. God Forbid! We'll still hope better things. For sure those various readings existed before in the several Exemplars; Dr Mill did not make and coin them, he only exhibited them to our View. If Religion therefore was true before, though such various readings were in being: it will be as true and consequently as safe still, though every body sees them. Depend on't; no Truth, no matter of fact fairly laid open, can ever subvert true Religion.

Such simple logic. Such force.

Cyan said:
On the other hand, is that last sentence actually correct for edge cases such as your mother, where her belief in something untrue can lessen her very real suffering? Where it can, in fact, help her endure what is true?

Simply from the point of view of lessening suffering in the world, it does seem like it would be wrong to take away her comfort, even if it's based on a false premise.

Yea, it's something I've struggled with. It's hard for me because they frequently preach to me and I'm always trying to restrain myself from really returning their volleys, as a gesture of kindness. And I know they do it because they love me and genuinely think it means my everlasting life.

But it is a very difficult conundrum. To live the lie and yet be at peace mentally or to fully accept the truth and all its implications, where in these cases you have only a dark, harsh life ahead of you.

Pixel Pete · Jul 12, 2011

It begins to feel like certain people think they are owed comfort and reassurances from the universe.

blame space · Jul 12, 2011

Satan is the God of Earth.

Cujshi · Jul 12, 2011

Atramental said:
So Cujshi, if you're not a Christian what are you exactly? Is there a specific name for your belief system?

The reason why I wondered if you were a new age mystic is because I hear about these new agers including Jesus and many other "holy" men and women into their belief systems.

the absence of a "name" is the key for my belief. as soon as I name myself, I become "one of many" which would eventually lead to some already existent sociological form that is doomed to make a mistake.

it's kind of a paradox, cause I know for certain that Jesus never wanted for Christianity to go this way. those men have argued over the concept of holy trinity for ages, killed others in name of religion, they have made hundreds of different belief groups, and most of their doings are focused on something that is not, and should not be important. And, if that didnt form - no one would know about Jesus. always makes me wonder why God did it that way, maybe cause there was no other .. ?

Sutton Dagger · Jul 13, 2011

The_Darkest_Red said:
Sure, why not. When I look at where I am in my life right now I realize that I couldn't have made it here on my own. I know myself better than anyone and I know that deep down inside I am a ridiculously prideful, sarcastic, hateful, selfish, and quite frankly disgusting human being. However, ever since I have given my life to Christ I have found myself becoming more humble, less hatefully sarcastic, less selfish, and less disgusting. I'm not saying I'm perfect or that I'm some immaculate specimen of a human being, because like I said I couldn't do it on my own, but I am 100% convinced that there is something and someone supernatural helping me out in my day to day life. Some will say that it's all just psychology, that there is nothing there other than my own thoughts and ill-informed logic shaping my thought patterns into something different (some may even bold this sentence and say "this" in a post), but I just can't buy that. It's just too powerful to brush aside as something like that.

That's just me being honest, take it for what it is.

The discussion regarding morality was interesting, if you go a few pages back a few of us were making the point that we can use a frame of reference 'harm and happiness' to achieve objective moral values.

On your broader point, you are just simply reaffirming your preconceptions about God, not discovering evidence of his influence over your life. Let me tell you about myself before I became an Atheist. I was a hateful person, everyone was a sinner and deserved to burn in hell if they didn't accept Jesus, especially homo-sexuals. I was less humble, how could I be humble when God created the earth for us and it was our rightful place to rule over all living things. I was a fearful person, every deed or thought was being monitored by THE omniscient being. Now that I'm an Atheist, I have respect for people based on their actions, not how they were born. I appreciate that I'm a part of the natural world, the product of Evolution just like every other living creature. I'm no longer fearful that my private thoughts or deeds are being monitored like Big Brother. Do my statements amount to evidence of God's non-existance based on your premise?

Fernando Rocker · Jul 13, 2011

Pixel Pete said:
It begins to feel like certain people think they are owed comfort and reassurances from the universe.

Well... the Bible says we are co-heirs with Christ.

So, yes... basically, me, accepting Jesus as my savior, the whole Universe will be a small part of my reward.

Count Dookkake · Jul 13, 2011

FWIW, Anton LaVey's Church of Satan only uses demonic/devilish imagery, terms and symbols to troll Christians.

Pixel Pete · Jul 13, 2011

Fernando Rocker said:
Well... the Bible says we are co-heirs with Christ.

So, yes... basically, me, accepting Jesus as my savior, the whole Universe will be a small part of my reward.

Narcissistic much? The universe doesn't owe you anything. It was here first.

Sutton Dagger · Jul 13, 2011

Fernando Rocker said:
Well... the Bible says we are co-heirs with Christ.

So, yes... basically, me, accepting Jesus as my savior, the whole Universe will be a small part of my reward.

Hesiod's Works and Days describe man's condition based on Pandora's (first woman) disobedience to a divine command. This first 'sin' explains the origin of all resulting suffering and evil subsequently experienced by mankind (I can't remember where I have read this before).

Why aren't you worshipping the Greek pantheon, these myths explain your perception of mankind just as well as the Bible.

state-of-the-art · Jul 13, 2011

Fernando Rocker said:
Well... the Bible says we are co-heirs with Christ.

So, yes... basically, me, accepting Jesus as my savior, the whole Universe will be a small part of my reward.

And you'll get to watch all those people you don't like suffer and burn! Mmmm, such sweet vindication.

that1dude24 · Jul 13, 2011

This is the type of stuff that depresses me when it comes to religion. People are restricting themselves to pleasures that do no others harm and aren't really living, because, as fernando put it, "the whole Universe will be a small part of [their] reward".

Erigu · Jul 13, 2011

NullPointer said:
Great point and great quote

Then again, I don't think it's all that surprising for me to be worrying a lot less about that cliff, behind, than about the abyss time inexorably pushes me towards.
(this bit of existential dread free of charge! you're welcome!)

Orayn · Jul 13, 2011

Sutton Dagger said:
Hesiod's Works and Days describe man's condition based on Pandora's (first woman) disobedience to a divine command. This first 'sin' explains the origin of all resulting suffering and evil subsequently experienced by mankind (I can't remember where I have read this before).

Why aren't you worshipping the Greek pantheon, these myths explain your perception of mankind just as well as the Bible.

He's clearly closed-minded and hasn't felt the presence of Apollo in his life.

mike23 · Jul 13, 2011

JGS said:
Why?

Or was your second sentence the reason?
EDIT: Nvm, I missed the afterlife part. Can I assume that religions not big on after life stuff are as life- affirming? Actually, I'm not sure what belief in an after-life has to do life being sweet now.

If you truly believe in God and Heaven, then the only rational thing to do is to die as soon as possible without ruining your chances at heaven.

Pixel Pete · Jul 13, 2011

Erigu said:
Then again, I don't think it's all that surprising for me to be worrying a lot less about that cliff, behind, than about the abyss time inexorably pushes me towards.
(this bit of existential dread free of charge! you're welcome!)

That abyss of time is really quite daunting. Or rather, it would be if I wasn't dead at the time

tubster68 · Jul 13, 2011

I love reading these Atheist vs Theist/ Evolution vs. Creation/ Science vs. Religion threads when i was still a lurker. I'm an atheist but i still love listening to everybody go at it. From what i noticed though is that nobody will "win" or come to a conclusion because in the end nobody knows the answer, YET. We as humans do not have enough "power" to be able to prove things like the existence of God or if God exists. The only reason why humans are so confident that there is a God today is because we are still primitive in our technology. Having said that, i do believe that in the future, when we can travel farther in the universe, religion will slowly become obsolete ^^.

However an interesting story happened today. I was waiting for the bus (its cheaper) going to school when suddenly this old guy(probably in his 60s) wearing a fedora/cowboy-ish hat and walks around with a binder in his hand, approaches me and takes out a little catalog from his binder. He didn't even introduce himself he just went straight to talking about the catalog, i read the title and it says "Why you can trust the bible". So he told me about why you should trust the bible and stuff blah blah, now i didn't really say anything rebellious because first i don't want to get into a big argument convo, second i wanted to see this catalog, third he looked tired. So i took it and we said our thanks and goodbyes. I read a bit of the catalog and i stopped in the first paragraph (because the bus was there

). Basically it just gives information about some arguments that the bible is contradictory, and basically just takes an excerpt from the bible that this is wrong.

Now the first thing that i thought about after this is. Wow, are they this desperate? Why would they need to go around doing this if they have confidence on what the believe? All these things about atheist movement just went through my mind until i got to school lol. Has anyone been approached by these people? I live in Vancouver Canada.

I was also approached (in the same bus stop) by this naturally cute chick before, i thought it was about my number but she just gave me a similar catalog about God and left. I would totally go for it only if she wasn't going around trying to convert people, total turn off =(.

Fernando Rocker · Jul 13, 2011

tubster68 said:
I love reading these Atheist vs Theist/ Evolution vs. Creation/ Science vs. Religion threads when i was still a lurker. I'm an atheist but i still love listening everybody go at it. From what i noticed though is that nobody will "win" or come to a conclusion because in the end nobody knows the answer, YET. We as humans do not have enough "power" to be able to prove things like the existence of God or if God exists. The only reason why humans are so confident that there is a God today is because we are still primitive in our technology. Having said that, i do believe that in the future, when we can travel farther in the universe, religion will slowly become obsolete ^^.

However an interesting story happened today. I was waiting for the bus (its cheaper) going to school when suddenly this old guy(probably in his 60s) wearing a fedora/cowboy-ish hat and walks around with a binder in his hand, approaches me and takes out a little catalog from his binder. He didn't even introduce himself he just went straight to talking about the catalog, i read the title and it says "Why you can trust the bible". So he told me about why you should trust the bible and stuff blah blah, now i didn't really say anything rebellious because first i don't want to get into a big argument convo, second i wanted to see this catalog, third he looked tired. So i took it and we said our thanks and goodbyes. I read a bit of the catalog and i stopped in the first paragraph (because the bus was there ). Basically it just gives information about some arguments that the bible is contradictory, and basically just takes an excerpt from the bible that this is wrong.

Now the first thing that i thought about after this is. Wow, are they this desperate? Why would they need to go around doing this if they have confidence on what the believe? All these things about atheist movement just went through my mind until i got to school lol. Has anyone been approached by these people? I live in Vancouver Canada.

I was also approached (in the same bus stop) by this naturally cute chick before, i thought it was about my number but she just gave me a similar catalog about God and left. I would totally go for it only if she wasn't going around trying to convert people, total turn off =(.

Is not that we are desperate as you say.

But one of our... how do I say it... duties (that's not the exact word I'm looking for, but I can't think of an English translation) is to teach God's word.

Erigu · Jul 13, 2011

Pixel Pete said:
That abyss of time is really quite daunting. Or rather, it would be if I wasn't dead at the time

Of course, dying without even noticing seems like the way to go... We won't all be that lucky though.

tubster68 · Jul 13, 2011

Fernando Rocker said:
Is not that we are desperate as you say.

But one of our... how do I say it... duties (that's not the exact word I'm looking for, but I can't think of an English translation) is to teach God's word.

I do understand that "God's words" needs to be taught to people. But i thought that's what the church is for. Unless we don't agree that people should choose what they want to believe on their own, then why go around and approaching individuals and presenting things that they probably didn't even care about until now? I just feel like its so forced.

NullPointer · Jul 13, 2011

tubster68 said:
I do understand that "God's words" needs to be taught to people. But i thought that's what the church is for. Unless we don't agree that people should choose what they want to believe on their own, then why go around and approaching individuals and presenting things that they probably didn't even care about until now? I just feel like its so forced.

That and I don't think people would take to the idea so kindly when they found a bunch of atheists standing outside their Sunday services handling out pamphlets debunking creationism and explaining evolution in detail.

CornBurrito · Jul 13, 2011

Question to Christians who believe that those who sin are doomed to eternal hellfire.

If you have children, you generally love them more than anything else in the world. It seems to me that the greatest act of love would be to ensure they have a secured spot in heaven. Game Analysist mentioned in another thread that children get a free pass into heaven if they die before being able to accept Christ as their savior.

With all the influences of the devil out there wouldn't it be wiser to kill your children (or since murdering someone directly is not okay in god's book, send them to really really really dangerous places) to ensure they get a place in heaven?

Also if faith is the only thing needed to get into heaven (and good works count for nothing) then you aren't even harming your own chances.

Also another question: Is smoking considered a sin, since it shortens one's lifespan considerably and could technically count as suicide?

If not, why not put yourself into danger on purpose (take a vacation to Africa and don't get any of the vaccinations and don't use a net to surround your bedding) to ensure you get to heaven even earlier? If Heaven truly existed I'd sure as hell want to get there ASAP. Especially if I were a Christian like RyanReedy or Daverytimes who thought humans deserved punishment and that the world was a rotten shithole.

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