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Wii U Speculation Thread of Brains Beware: Wii U Re-Unveiling At E3 2012
- Thread starter bgassassin
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ThoseDeafMutes
Member
I doubt it will have a strong presence at CES - they might show off a game or two from the WiiU and give a talk about the design opportunities that the uPad offers. They will save the big guns for E3.
StreetsAhead
Member
Iwata never said re-unveil, I wish the title of this thread would be changed. He said they'd show it in it's final format at e3, which is slightly different.
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/111028/05.html
jump_button
Banned
0_o some real news fuck yeah about time
Freezie KO
Banned
I'm so anti-hyped for the Wii U at this point that I'm in a pretty good position for a Nintendo hardware unveiling. Low expectations.
Don't crush our hopes now =\
jump_button
Banned
AceBandage
Banned
We won't get anything from CES. They'll be there, showing it off to developers and maybe a limited number of press.
And that'll be it.
No showings, no floor demos. Just a little "OK, this is where we are right now." to important people.
And that'll be it.
No showings, no floor demos. Just a little "OK, this is where we are right now." to important people.
That's usually a recipe for leaks.
AceBandage
Banned
If this was any other company...
But regardless, we shall see.
But regardless, we shall see.
Refreshment.01
Member
Dreamwriter, you can't take one example and make indefectible law out of it. Just look at Metro 2033, 4A is a small studio that created higher quality assets than what the console can handle. To counter your FFXIV example, which is a heavily stylized game so it's easier to hide technical shortcomings. In Metro 2033 case is easy to appreciate the differences between the game running on a decent spected PC in comparison to the Xbox360 version, you can consider it a generation ahead. Other examples that might be good are Crysis 1/2, Physx titles like the Batmans or Mafia.Spoken like someone who'se never played around with settings in an advanced PC gameYou know what happens if you take FFXIV), for example, and turn on Ambient Occlusion, Depth of Field, Texture Filtering, and render the whole thing at twice the resolution you are displaying? and the end result isn't really that much different than not doing it at all. These kind of effects can make things look subtly better.
Sorry, should be more specific, "trueHD" in regards to televisions sets 1080p.
stereoscopic 3D was just one example among others i gave don't know why you specifically centered around it. It's funny because you are using the same argument the Wii advocates were using to justify the Wii lack of processing power in relation to the adoption rate of HDTVs. Sony is heavily investing on it at least.
Regarding sandbox games. Was talking about limitations like slow downs, reduced draw distances and texture quality, environment and object pop up. Just look what modders have done with the game in PC, the same game with the added effects looks miles ahead of the console versions.
It's quite clear at least to me.
Dreamwriter
Member
Exactly my point - higher quality assets cost more to make, 95% of the games won't push a system because of that. Otherwise most games on Xbox would look like Gears of War, most games on PS3 would look like Uncharted.
I was countering the argument that the ONLY thing that mattered was effects, since my argument was that being able to push more detail means nothing unless developers are willing to spend the money to create that detail. The games you are bringing up aren't looking better based on effects alone.
The difference is, HDTV was a government standard that was already in 20% of households when the Wii came out, with a schedule to remove all non-digital programmin, and all major networks were broadcasting in HD at the time. 3DTV's aren't even close to that point - even the manufacturers don't have a 3D standard yet, though they are working on one, and I think there are like two 3D channels, one available on satellite, one on cable, neither are major networks.
Read what you said there - MODDERS creating better assets like texture packs. These are games that could have looked better but the developer chose not to spend thetime and money to do it. I've not read one single interview of any sandbox game developer complaining at lack of system power, and blaming that for any limitations. And I already talked about slowdown, my point of view is based in the Wii-U able to do the best the XBox 360 and PS3 can do, but at 1080p at 60fps.
Refreshment.01
Member
The "only thing that matter are effects". Who made that statement? Because it certainly wasn't me.
There's some heavy interpretation from your part, but in reality some of the examples i gave are looking substantially better because of the effects mainly. And my original point, that you are choosing to ignore for whatever reason, is that for the next round costs won't exacerbate as much as the Xbox and Xbox360 generation, so the hit has been taken and devs has wised up more, taking significant measures to mitigate the effects of raising dev costs. All of these has been clearly stablished in previews posts. Developers will be getting appreciable visual improvements even maintaining similar assets. That's my point and its a logical one based on real examples.
Don't understand why you keep gravitating toward the 3D adoption matter. I just mentioned the stereoscopic 3D gaming as an example of how developers, if they choose to, could employ the extra processing power while maintaining similar asset throughput. That's clear, is logical so there's no more need for you to keep arguing that.
It's not a good discussion practice to completely disqualify a reasonable statement because of what you could consider minor inconsistencies in it.
In the specific case of GTAIV mods, i.e. Icehancer or ENB, there's a heaven to earth difference in the game graphical presentation just by effects alone, that's a fact. That's how these mods started. Of course higher texture quality also improves the presentation ten fold.
bgassassin
Member
So I guess at CES this will all be a "behind a closed door" type of visit.
You wouldn't see at least 600 for the GPU? I'm still expecting at least 600, but I see why you are saying that.
Well I said pretty much all of it so there was room for one or two things I could agree with. But nobody is speculating just on what's in the dev kit. When a company tells devs target specs, that usually means that's what's in the process of being made. There's been nothing to say it will have a quad-core other than that clearly fake rumor. And we have to remember that the I/O processor will be there to relieve the burden on the CPU and GPU making a fourth core unnecessary. Plus considering the complexity of designing an OoO processor, Nintendo's not going to change that after E3 unless they already had something in the works for four-cores as well. And that I don't see.
And they sell it by showing what the games look like and other features both next year and once the other consoles are released. In these past few months I've come to learn there are a lot of people posting on message boards that know little about tech and prefer to make comments based on that lack of knowledge instead of at least learning basic things. Nintendo's not going to win them over on paper specs pretty much no matter what they do barring building a $500 console (which even then some of them would expect it to be beaten in some fashion). I'm expecting a decent amount in that group to show some level of disappointment once the other two consoles have their specs revealed, even though in reality they would be powerful consoles.
Also those were my specs from that prediction thread.
28nm.
You wouldn't see at least 600 for the GPU? I'm still expecting at least 600, but I see why you are saying that.
Well I said pretty much all of it so there was room for one or two things I could agree with. But nobody is speculating just on what's in the dev kit. When a company tells devs target specs, that usually means that's what's in the process of being made. There's been nothing to say it will have a quad-core other than that clearly fake rumor. And we have to remember that the I/O processor will be there to relieve the burden on the CPU and GPU making a fourth core unnecessary. Plus considering the complexity of designing an OoO processor, Nintendo's not going to change that after E3 unless they already had something in the works for four-cores as well. And that I don't see.
And they sell it by showing what the games look like and other features both next year and once the other consoles are released. In these past few months I've come to learn there are a lot of people posting on message boards that know little about tech and prefer to make comments based on that lack of knowledge instead of at least learning basic things. Nintendo's not going to win them over on paper specs pretty much no matter what they do barring building a $500 console (which even then some of them would expect it to be beaten in some fashion). I'm expecting a decent amount in that group to show some level of disappointment once the other two consoles have their specs revealed, even though in reality they would be powerful consoles.
Also those were my specs from that prediction thread.
While traversing and discussing around the Internet, someone was kind enough to let me take a peak at the dev kit, which confirms lherre's description. Obviously the info is very sensitive so I won't say much on it or who (just in case don't think lherre, as I wouldn't put him in this kind of position thanks to what he's already kindly shared with us.) But I have to believe based on how compact it is, that the GPU will see some kind of die shrink for Nintendo to place a hot chip in that case. So being with what I've researched I'm still leaning towards a GPU at
600MHz would work as well in that scenario (3.6 : 6; 1.8 : 3 - clean multiplier). Also, as I already wrote some time ago, the only hint I've seen so far would point at a 32nm GPU. And that would actually make sense, as both IBM and Renesas have 32nm fabs and are producing 32nm chips for about a year now.
bgassassin
Member
^ Ok. I definitely don't expect it to be 40nm. That's for sure.
Well that's my belief at least EloquentM.
But y'all know I can't do that. I made sure to get approval before even saying that much. I actually saw it about a week or so ago.
Well that's my belief at least EloquentM.
But y'all know I can't do that. I made sure to get approval before even saying that much. I actually saw it about a week or so ago.
28 or 32 nm won't be that big of a deal. Both are pretty great options.
If Nintendo's decision to die shrink is coming in this late we might even see a performance boost for the GPU. Not more shaders and stuff, but probably higher clock speed. A high speed GPU (600+ MHz) is quite likely anyway, because it's much cheaper to improve performance that way as opposed to creating a larger chip.
If Nintendo's decision to die shrink is coming in this late we might even see a performance boost for the GPU. Not more shaders and stuff, but probably higher clock speed. A high speed GPU (600+ MHz) is quite likely anyway, because it's much cheaper to improve performance that way as opposed to creating a larger chip.
Ok give us a hint at the RAM amount like Iherre did, shroud it in mystery and enigmas, so we must decipher your meaning.
Godlike. Well, this is the question that'll satiate me for now, are you happy with what was there? We have mostly similar expectations of the system.
@bgassassin: is it really fair to make inferences on the manufacturing process based on seeing the dev-kit casing? At the very least you'd have to combine that with expected chip complexity (e.g., number of ALUs), something that really is very much in the air right now, to make any reasonable speculation toward manufacturing process. You took a new fact (size of the dev-kit) and speculated on that... I'm just afraid a lot of readers will neglect to noticed the required chip complexity assumptions and jump to conclusions as they like to do.
Why are people hanging on 28nm so much? The only way I think it would make sense, is if the smaller process were to be employed to make more complex chips while limiting chip cost. But at the same time, the same chip complexity could be kept and the smaller manufacturing process used to only make the chip less expensive. Considering that there aren't any 28nm parts available yet, I doubt Nintendo would have a technological target that critically depended on good results from a young process. I mean, they're going to be using 45nm for their CPU. As I see it, 28nm or not it is not going to have an impact on what the specs of the machine are going to be, because I believe their target won't be dependent on that. If anything, it would increase their profit margin.
Why are people hanging on 28nm so much? The only way I think it would make sense, is if the smaller process were to be employed to make more complex chips while limiting chip cost. But at the same time, the same chip complexity could be kept and the smaller manufacturing process used to only make the chip less expensive. Considering that there aren't any 28nm parts available yet, I doubt Nintendo would have a technological target that critically depended on good results from a young process. I mean, they're going to be using 45nm for their CPU. As I see it, 28nm or not it is not going to have an impact on what the specs of the machine are going to be, because I believe their target won't be dependent on that. If anything, it would increase their profit margin.
Great news if it ends up being 28 so long as that means More Power (tm), although a small case like you saw could also be 32nm right? It seemed weird to me that if AMD were >< close to releasing their 28nm that Nintendo wouldn't be trying as hard as they could to get it into Wii U; so this is hopeful.
So, how about that RAM , CPU, USB 3, multiple controllers info bg? A PM is only a click away
So, how about that RAM , CPU, USB 3, multiple controllers info bg? A PM is only a click away
28 nm is new, its actually more expensive in the short term to use it, but if used, it allows for a more sophisticated, powerful chip per given wattage. If Nintendo were going for a conservative chip, it makes more sense to make it in a larger die and later opt for a 28 nm fabrication. This implies, though does not verify, their desire for a reasonably potent chip. Then again they may just want a conservative chip to run SUPER COOL to ensure rock solid reliability.
bgassassin
Member
Sorry guys. No additional specs were given to me that we don't already have an idea on. Just what it looked like. But if you want an example, imagine the early Wii dev kit with about half the height and what seems like poorer ventilation than the retail case we saw at E3.
Sarusama. I've felt for awhile that they would target a smaller process to make whatever they are planning cooler instead of more powerful. That is another option for targeting a smaller process. So considering the GPU was overheating in that case, then yes I believe it's fair to make that assumption, especially since GPUs normally run hotter than a CPU.
Sarusama. I've felt for awhile that they would target a smaller process to make whatever they are planning cooler instead of more powerful. That is another option for targeting a smaller process. So considering the GPU was overheating in that case, then yes I believe it's fair to make that assumption, especially since GPUs normally run hotter than a CPU.
Sigh. I just don't expect much power from this system. Will it be more powerful than the HD twins? Certainly. Substantially more? No. The doubling of RAM will give the impression in some game genres that it is though (If developers had 1 GB of RAM in the 360 right now many games would look substantially better with no additional power). It will run current gen assets just fine and can run downports from next-gen engine, in the exact same way the 360 is doing now with modern PC games. I'm fine with this.
What about the tablet controller? Did you get to see it work? Was it running wired? Was there only one?
If what Log4Girlz says is true, then I don't see them using 28nm. I really don't see them targeting something that will be more expensive early on, especially if they're not doing it for power.
bg, when you say that you'd assume the use of the process for cooling instead of power, aren't you again assuming a powerful chip that would be too hot if not on a small process? All these assumptions make me think that's you are very much considering what you'd like to have as opposed to what the company needs for a successful console. You should be speculating on what produces the best bang for the buck and then limit the absolute (as opposed to relative) amount of that buck to something that will fit in a reasonable price range. Considering all that, does 28nm make sense?
bg, when you say that you'd assume the use of the process for cooling instead of power, aren't you again assuming a powerful chip that would be too hot if not on a small process? All these assumptions make me think that's you are very much considering what you'd like to have as opposed to what the company needs for a successful console. You should be speculating on what produces the best bang for the buck and then limit the absolute (as opposed to relative) amount of that buck to something that will fit in a reasonable price range. Considering all that, does 28nm make sense?
Fourth Storm
Member
Nice digging, BG! This just confirms to me that the leak concerning the SPUs (640) and clock (500+Mhz) is accurate. If the chip were at 40nm, this would not be possible in that small case. But at 32 or 28nm, we're now in business.
@DCKing: There's nothing saying a die shrink was a late decision. It's most likely been the plan all along. It just takes a while to get things up and running.
@DCKing: There's nothing saying a die shrink was a late decision. It's most likely been the plan all along. It just takes a while to get things up and running.
It was probably being emulated with a DS lol
For a dev-kit? Nah, they probably used a gameboy.
regarding CES:
what? it was hardly small compared to a ps3/360 not to mention how big we expect the other next-gen systems to be. besides, an even smaller size will cause more power constraints.
what? it was hardly small compared to a ps3/360 not to mention how big we expect the other next-gen systems to be. besides, an even smaller size will cause more power constraints.
You might be in the minority. I though the majority though curves were sexy on consoles
Told you guys! Nothing new until E3!
Though I'm kind of scared that they won't show anything new half a year after E3, even if the Wii U will be a CES... unless they are keeping the "new" version of the Wii U for E3 or something.
And I like how it says it will release between THE START of E3 and the end of 2012.
Though I'm kind of scared that they won't show anything new half a year after E3, even if the Wii U will be a CES... unless they are keeping the "new" version of the Wii U for E3 or something.
And I like how it says it will release between THE START of E3 and the end of 2012.
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