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Epic: Unreal Engine 4 is for "purely next-gen" games, UE3 is for scalable development

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
I totally get what you're saying. Though wasn't similar things said about DirectX11? How long has that been out? and are we seeing all games releasing DX11 versions yet? That is a legitimate question as I don't have the numbers for that, but are we seeing PC games releasing with DX11 support across the board? I think if you haven't seen devs fully 100% accept that yet, then expecting a UE4, that doesn't down scale some what, seems really risky. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see in time.

Its like you mentioned that UE3 on the iOS platforms has a lot of features turned off, I think you'd be able to see the same for an UE4, but again we'll see.

There are quite a few games that are still DX9 only, but I think that actually fits with what I mean.

When the 360 and PS3 came out, a lot of games released with requirements way above what most people had on PC. We even had mods like OldBlivion and BioShock Shader Model 2.0 to try and make 2006/2007 console games run on the average hardware that PC gamers used.

However, now that we're late in the generation, developers are almost universally still designing games for those consoles, so the requirements to run PC games are quite low as developers don't actually care about expanding for the capabilities of the platform.

Following this trend though, I would expect next-gen games to run like garbage on most people's PC hardware when the consoles first come out, and then four years later be quite lax relative to where the average core PC gamer's hardware has moved to, and then by the end of the generation, seem ancient again.

I mean, even with a game like CoD we're only seeing around 2-3 million copies sold on PC, and a ton of games sell in the six digit range on the platform. It's good money, but when we're talking about 2-25+ million copy hit games, it's an audience that developers are able to jerk around with.

That said, PC gamers often hail games with high PC requirements. Battlefield 3 has some of the most strict minimum hardware requirements of a modern game, but it is what is referred to as a great PC port and sold very well on the platform.

Now, if we were making SimCity, obviously we want something with much lower requirements, but that's not something that's going to be a next-gen console game.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
I don't think it not being scalable down to current hardware means that it can't scale downward to some degree. At least that's how I read his statement.

Also, where would that leave ios devices? UE4 not appearing on those platforms for a few years seems like a bit of a misstep. I suppose they could wait, but it would be quite a long wait.
iOS devices aren't even close to exploiting everything UE3 is capable of. When the iPad contains hardware strong enough to run The Samaritan demo at native resolution get back to me. We'll get there, no doubt, but it sounds like UE4 is designed to go well beyond even that and deliver something which today's high-end PC hardware isn't even capable of fully supporting.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
iOS devices aren't even close to exploiting everything UE3 is capable of. When the iPad contains hardware strong enough to run The Samaritan demo at native resolution get back to me. We'll get there, no doubt, but it sounds like UE4 is designed to go well beyond even that and deliver something which today's high-end PC hardware isn't even capable of fully supporting.

Right, there is really an incredible amount of headroom still for what they already have.
 

deadlast

Member
It be nice to know who the developers were. I believe that would give us some insight into who was behind the NDA.
 

ElFly

Member
There will be a lot of games released for the 360 and PS3 well into their successors lives. The transition will be slow and the previous consoles will be supported for longer than any previous generation change.

Why? Couple of factors. The HD Twins hold different parts of the worldwide market (which means that if you want to target several markets, you have to do a dual release), and even the PS3 has a bigger installed base out of any "losing" console in any generation (except maybe Sega Genesis -edit: even the Genesis is crushed by the ps3-).

The other factor is that the engines will scale up pretty well. We saw this with some UE2 games this generation (the most important would be bioshock, iirc), and chances are that UE3 on next gen consoles won't look that poor compared to their UE4 brethren.

This situation will benefit the WiiU if it can't run UE4, as they can get a bunch of UE3 ports. Big AAA games will want to release on as many consoles as possible, and this will mean UE3 support until the hd twins wane and die, and maybe even beyond if the WiiU has success with the third parties.
 

Instro

Member
iOS devices aren't even close to exploiting everything UE3 is capable of. When the iPad contains hardware strong enough to run The Samaritan demo at native resolution get back to me. We'll get there, no doubt, but it sounds like UE4 is designed to go well beyond even that and deliver something which today's high-end PC hardware isn't even capable of fully supporting.

Oh I don't disagree with that, it just strikes me as a little odd to have devs to utilizing two different engines with different feature sets and so on instead of unifying development under one engine.

Maybe I just find it hard to believe that UE4 is that far beyond engines like Frostbite 2 and CryEngine 3. Perhaps scaling down UE4 would essentially just be making a UE3 game so there's no point to doing so.
 

subversus

I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
There are quite a few games that are still DX9 only, but I think that actually fits with what I mean.

When the 360 and PS3 came out, a lot of games released with requirements way above what most people had on PC. We even had mods like OldBlivion and BioShock Shader Model 2.0 to try and make 2006/2007 console games run on the average hardware that PC gamers used.

Well, I remember shader 2.0 patch, I thought it was hilarious because Bioshock was perfectly playable at 720p on 8600 GT which was quite cheap.

but if Epic really pushed platform holders as they did it last time then we can expect stuff you are talking about.

and damn, Epic seem to push them hard.
 

TheOddOne

Member
I don't see how it could mean anything else unless the demos they showed were for a game (or games) and a publisher put an NDA on it.

Has to be a Microsoft/Sony thing, and I suspect it might be because it is for a game exclusive to one of those platforms. EG: Gears 4 UE4 tech demo.
This would be my guess as well :p
 
The publisher has marketing control on games they fund.

Sure, but you don't have to show a game to display an engine. Like I said earlier, Epic could easily whip up some random assets and a couple of scripts to show their engine, as they seem to want to do. This has to be a hardware thing.
 

Blizzard

Banned
At least we know it will still use Nvidia Physx, new video on Samaritan clothing there too.

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gdc-2012-nvidia/727876
I really wish someone would come up with an OpenCL physics implementation for stuff like capes flapping, so it would work on both AMD and nVidia cards. It would seem to me like that would be good for consoles as well as PCs, but I don't know much about whether OpenCL is even feasible for consoles.
 

Krilekk

Banned
What does this mean for Wii U?

That it won't get UE4. But nobody should have ever expected otherwise. I mean we did see Nintendos E3 reel of games, right? Why would they show stuff like the Zelda tech demo if the hardware would be capable of 10x that? Next gen will be just like this gen, Wii U gets special versions of PS4/720 games that only share the name. But I fear that even if Wii U is 2x 360 it might only get 360 games because developers will create their games with that in mind.
 

Krilekk

Banned
Sure, but you don't have to show a game to display an engine. Like I said earlier, Epic could easily whip up some random assets and a couple of scripts to show their engine, as they seem to want to do. This has to be a hardware thing.

Nope, because you don't have to tell people what it's running on. They could've easily gone the "this is running on 3 GTX580" route. This can only be related to what they're actually showing. And Epic has a history of their engine demos making heavy use of ingame assets of their next big game.

Remember some time ago when Epic was getting ready to show something new and their publisher stepped in at the last minute and prohibited it? Back then everybody was assuming it was Gears of War Kinect - but what if it was their next big thing and MS had originally planned the next Xbox to release in late 2011, then pushed it back a year due to the Kinect success?
 

deleted

Member
That it won't get UE4. But nobody should have ever expected otherwise. I mean we did see Nintendos E3 reel of games, right? Why would they show stuff like the Zelda tech demo if the hardware would be capable of 10x that? Next gen will be just like this gen, Wii U gets special versions of PS4/720 games that only share the name. But I fear that even if Wii U is 2x 360 it might only get 360 games because developers will create their games with that in mind.

Why? For all we know, they could have shown a demo on WiiU and because of that it falls under an NDA.
 
Yeah, if I had to guess I think maybe this is tied to MS's new console, and after the recent leaks they got cold feet and didn't want to risk this somehow giving away more. If I am correct Epic originally implied that we would see the engine sooner rather than later. The other option, as other people have suggested, was rather than a tech demo they were showing off a game, and the publisher decided not to unveil it this way and wait for a more proper announcement. Still, Im kinda hoping that this is tied to next-gen consoles, and that MS may have something to show at this e3 with a 2013 launch.
 
Sure, but you don't have to show a game to display an engine. Like I said earlier, Epic could easily whip up some random assets and a couple of scripts to show their engine, as they seem to want to do. This has to be a hardware thing.

I've been saying the same, OTOH, assets and environments are expensive, can they really "whip those up"?

Thinking back to the original UE3 demos they were all basically Gears of War assets, remember? I cant recall a UE3 demo that WASNT basically Gears assets.

But, Samaritan seems to be the definition of "whipped up", as supposedly a small team built it. Dont know why they couldn't do that again. Then again Samaritan probably took 10 people and several months, no small expense either. But if your company is an engine company, it seems like that (a proper generic UE4 demo) would certainly be a worthwhile expense.

Just as easily I dont know how it can be a hardware thing, as even the next gen consoles are NOT going to be more powerful than the most powerful PC's right now (considering, you could put together a PC with 16GB RAM and triple GTX580's or Crossfired 7970's). So I dont see why they couldn't demo UE4 on a monster PC.

So in summation, I dont know, LOL. It probably somehow has to do with Durango and possibly also an IP such as Samaritan or Gears 5 though is my guess, despite the above caveats.

MS may have something to show at this e3 with a 2013 launch.

Maybe, though I'm still skeptical we'll see anything next box at THIS e3. Even if it's a 2013 launch I expect we'd see it at e3 2013 first.

One other point worth mincing is that Rein said they "hope" to show UE4 later in 2012. So essentially that means it's possible they DONT show it in 2012. That is important information imo.
 

guek

Banned
A couple points:

- I have a hard time believing next gen consoles will be as powerful as Epic is hinting. There were various rumors beforehand that pointed in the opposite direction, and honestly, it seems more financially beneficial for MS/Sony to go a more conservative route. Then there are the heating issues, the 2GB ram hurdle, etc. etc. But you know, Epic certainly knows much more about next gen console development than anyone on gaf. Maybe they're completely right. Maybe they're just being optimistic. Or maybe they're just trying to hype up their new engine beyond belief. Either way, I'm excited to see it.

- I don't understand how any NDA could possibly prohibit epic from showing off their engine. Even if there is an exclusive game in development using UE4, epic could still build a demo distinct from that game and show it off to the public. In fact, I'm certain such a demo exists. Then there's the fact that whatever is coming on next gen consoles will probably be already eclipsed by PCs. Why would epic willingly demo the engine on a console when it would look better running on some ungodly uber PC? However, if there is some sort of clause that states whatever UE4 game is being made will be the first glimpse the public gets at the engine, I can't imagine such a contract being with any company other than Microsoft.

- If Wii U can't run UE4 well...fuck. I don't believe anything stated by Epic rules out the possibility of running on Wii U though. I will be sorely disappointed though if porting down to nintendo's next console isn't possible. There are so many different rumors flying around for that thing, it's hard to really predict what's going to happen there. I pray the April nintendo direct gives us a clearer picture of what to expect.
 
Maybe, though I'm still skeptical we'll see anything next box at THIS e3. Even if it's a 2013 launch I expect we'd see it at e3 2013 first.

One other point worth mincing is that Rein said they "hope" to show UE4 later in 2012. So essentially that means it's possible they DONT show it in 2012. That is important information imo.
If it is a 2013 release E3 2013 is too late to announce it thats onlt a couple of months of buildup to hit a holiday release.

I don't see why they coudn't do something similar to what Nintendo did last year, they obviously have at least one engine and rumours have the devkits being in peoples hands for a couple of months now, still a couple of months away from E3.

I think if they have enough to show there is no downside to showing it as long as they are clear it's a late next year release.
 
If it is a 2013 release E3 2013 is too late to announce it thats onlt a couple of months of buildup to hit a holiday release.

I don't see why they coudn't do something similar to what Nintendo did last year, they obviously have at least one engine and rumours have the devkits being in peoples hands for a couple of months now, still a couple of months away from E3.

I think if they have enough to show there is no downside to showing it as long as they are clear it's a late next year release.

Can easily reveal it at the 2013 Spring Showcase and then do the full public blowout at E3. I still think it's going to be a 1H of 2013 launch though with an E3 small tease and some kind of fall/winter show will be the huge event. (show will be after Halo 4 drops)
 

Krilekk

Banned
So in summation, I dont know, LOL. It probably somehow has to do with Durango and possibly also an IP such as Samaritan or Gears 5 though is my guess, despite the above caveats.

Is this a joke or is Epic pulling a Lowe or why do you keep talking about Gears 5 when we didn't even have a Gears 4?
 

Mik2121

Member
The two big things I want to see changed from a development point of view...

1) Better alpha map support (if it's unlit it isn't as big of a problem, otherwise the shader complexity goes crazy)
2) Better dynamic lighting (right now it's way too heavy, quality isn't all that good and overall the engine relies too much on lightmass and prebaked lighting, so certain game genres get kind of kicked in the balls because it's hard to get some quality day/night real-time cycle on consoles).
 

pottuvoi

Banned
They should release another awesome video explaining to me how it doesn't scale down
If the engine is anything like what they have been talking about, it simply cannot be 'scaled down' because it requires a lot of programmability from GPU and huge amounts of paraller processing power.
http://graphics.cs.williams.edu/archive/SweeneyHPG2009/TimHPG2009.pdf

IE.
If they went and created new exotic renderer using compute which sidesteps normal GPU rasterization problems, it needs GPU which can actually reun compute shaders and is fast enough.
This is something I'm quite certain that they have done, it can be something similar to REYES or not. ;)
- If Wii U can't run UE4 well...fuck. I don't believe anything stated by Epic rules out the possibility of running on Wii U though. I will be sorely disappointed though if porting down to nintendo's next console isn't possible.
If WiiU isn't fully capable in compute shading, I'm certain that there will be no UE4 on it.
 

Krilekk

Banned
Can easily reveal it at the 2013 Spring Showcase and then do the full public blowout at E3. I still think it's going to be a 1H of 2013 launch though with an E3 small tease and some kind of fall/winter show will be the huge event. (show will be after Halo 4 drops)

Seriously, can they have a bigger game than Halo 4 for a new Xbox? If they'd launch the next console shortly after Halo 4 it would make much more sense to delay the game. There really is only one good way: Release Halo 4 on both 360 and next Xbox, launch new Xbox in 11 2012, cut price of 360 by $50 to $75 to make life very hard for Wii U. And then they have Epics new IP for their second holiday season.
 
Seriously, can they have a bigger game than Halo 4 for a new Xbox? If they'd launch the next console shortly after Halo 4 it would make much more sense to delay the game. There really is only one good way: Release Halo 4 on both 360 and next Xbox, launch new Xbox in 11 2012, cut price of 360 by $50 to $75 to make life very hard for Wii U. And then they have Epics new IP for their second holiday season.

Well they did the same with Halo 2.
 
Seriously, can they have a bigger game than Halo 4 for a new Xbox? If they'd launch the next console shortly after Halo 4 it would make much more sense to delay the game. There really is only one good way: Release Halo 4 on both 360 and next Xbox, launch new Xbox in 11 2012, cut price of 360 by $50 to $75 to make life very hard for Wii U. And then they have Epics new IP for their second holiday season.

Better to have new IP's at launch in order to build a brand (look at what it did for COD2 being the premier launch game on the 360) and 3rd parties wouldn't want to be overshadowed by Halo. Hard to get them to spend a bunch of money making launch games if nobody is there to buy them.

Plus the hundreds of millions they'll make on Halo 4 will help with some of the financial hit of a console launch.
 

darthdago

Member
Then why did the CEO of UBISOFT claim he expects the budgets of next gen games to go as high as $60 million.
http://kotaku.com/5293126/ubisoft-ceo-expects-60-million-game-budgets-next-gen

How to explain it best...
I would say its because with WiiU, 720 and PS4 we will have 3 nextgen consoles to develop for which takes a bit more time, more motion capture, etc. -> eating money.

But most likely such comments are made if they want to explain why they have to raise game price...

PS: I'm VERY sure about UE4 on WiiU
 
Better to have new IP's at launch in order to build a brand (look at what it did for COD2 being the premier launch game on the 360) and 3rd parties wouldn't want to be overshadowed by Halo. Hard to get them to spend a bunch of money making launch games if nobody is there to buy them.

Plus the hundreds of millions they'll make on Halo 4 will help with some of the financial hit of a console launch.

They also have COD, Battelefield, Gears(or new Epic IP), Bethesda RPG(expecting Fallout next), Ass Creed and such to fill the gap now too, they will be on the competitions machines aswell but there have been alot of franchises that have made huge leaps this gen in the west.
 
I really wish someone would come up with an OpenCL physics implementation for stuff like capes flapping, so it would work on both AMD and nVidia cards. It would seem to me like that would be good for consoles as well as PCs, but I don't know much about whether OpenCL is even feasible for consoles.

You would think AMD would get on this. And Khronos for that matter.
 
Nope, because you don't have to tell people what it's running on. They could've easily gone the "this is running on 3 GTX580" route. This can only be related to what they're actually showing. And Epic has a history of their engine demos making heavy use of ingame assets of their next big game.

Remember some time ago when Epic was getting ready to show something new and their publisher stepped in at the last minute and prohibited it? Back then everybody was assuming it was Gears of War Kinect - but what if it was their next big thing and MS had originally planned the next Xbox to release in late 2011, then pushed it back a year due to the Kinect success?

I don't see that at all. Epic are a highly capable games studio, if they wanted to show something besides a super secret game than they could have easily done that. Hell they could've used samaritan assets and made an impressive demo, they could use Gears, they could do a crytek style demo with random enviroments. The fact that its "out of their control" would suggest its hardware.


I've been saying the same, OTOH, assets and environments are expensive, can they really "whip those up"?

Thinking back to the original UE3 demos they were all basically Gears of War assets, remember? I cant recall a UE3 demo that WASNT basically Gears assets.

But, Samaritan seems to be the definition of "whipped up", as supposedly a small team built it. Dont know why they couldn't do that again. Then again Samaritan probably took 10 people and several months, no small expense either. But if your company is an engine company, it seems like that (a proper generic UE4 demo) would certainly be a worthwhile expense.

Just as easily I dont know how it can be a hardware thing, as even the next gen consoles are NOT going to be more powerful than the most powerful PC's right now (considering, you could put together a PC with 16GB RAM and triple GTX580's or Crossfired 7970's). So I dont see why they couldn't demo UE4 on a monster PC.

So in summation, I dont know, LOL. It probably somehow has to do with Durango and possibly also an IP such as Samaritan or Gears 5 though is my guess, despite the above caveats.



Maybe, though I'm still skeptical we'll see anything next box at THIS e3. Even if it's a 2013 launch I expect we'd see it at e3 2013 first.

One other point worth mincing is that Rein said they "hope" to show UE4 later in 2012. So essentially that means it's possible they DONT show it in 2012. That is important information imo.
Yeah its probably a combination of Durango and a new IP for MS.
 
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