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[Father_Brain]

MOD NOTE: Use this thread to discuss circuitry and power consumption. This is a business/industry implication discussion thread. You can feel free to discuss this quote in the other thread as well, but the goal here is to have a thread where we can discuss the business and positioning facets instead of having every thread be a circuitry debate.

Anyone see this new Totilo quote? If anything, the bolded bit has me even more confused about how the UE3/UE4 distinction will work in practice, given the realistic power/heat limitations for next-gen consoles that have been discussed in this thread and many others.

The state of things is represented by Epic Games' 2012 version of their show-off session. Every year at GDC, the company's top marketing guy Mark Rein shows a roomful of reporters Epic's latest Unreal graphics tech and talks about how wonderful a toolset it is for game developers big and small to use to make attractive games. But this year, Rein wouldn't show us Epic's best tech. The company's demonstration for Epic's Unreal Engine 4 was for non-press—just for life-signing-away game makers. UE4 is meant to help make games for gaming consoles none of us owns today. Shielded from that, the press got to see another iteration of last year's dazzling "Samaritan" demo for Unreal Engine 3, a better-looking-than-anything-we-have-now Blade-Runner-style sequence that both shows where Epic thinks next-gen gaming should go but is capable of running on today's engine. The point, Rein explained to me, is that, if you were making a game for next-gen systems that you'd also want running on current systems, you would still go with UE3 and try for Samaritan-level sizzle in the next-gen versions of the game. But if you were going purely next-gen, you'd go with UE4. But forget the gens, because Rein was up there showing Unreal Tournament III running in Flash in a web browser, a la Farmville. And he's saying Epic wants to get Samaritan running in that. Somehow. And that is where gaming is going.

---

Also, some quips about the UE4 demo:

That's what the studio told assembled press at GDC yesterday, adding that the decision to put its UE4 demo behind closed doors - and viewing developers under non-disclosure agreement - at the conference "wasn't our decision".

Source: http://www.computerandvideogames.co...ter-in-2012/?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=CVG-General-RSS

"We're doing [Unreal Engine 4] and I don't think anybody else is doing anything as incredible as that," Rein boasted. A developer who had seen Epic's UE4 demo was sitting nearby, eavesdropping. He vigorously nodded his head in agreement.

"Right? You've seen it?" Rein asked him. That developer gave us his non-verbal impression of Unreal Engine 4 by offering us an eyes-glazed-over, jaw-dropped look.

"UE 4? Look out. Game changer," Rein boasted. "I've said enough."

Source: http://www.gametrailers.com/side-mission/2012/03/07/unreal-engine-4-everything-i-could-get-out-of-epic-vp-mark-rein/

 

[Nirolak]

Since it has been a frequently debated topic about whether or not UE4 will scale a lot, I thought this would make a good new thread.

That said, I am hoping to focus on the business implications here instead of having Circuitry Debate Thread #2424242.

So, at least from this quote, it's clear that Unreal Engine 4 won't support the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3, and thus likely has rather high requirements for the base of what it does.

 

[AndyH]

Edit: Wrong thread.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

the title makes it seem like UE4 is not scalable

 

[Nirolak]

the title makes it seem like UE4 is not scalable

Yes, at least in a downward direction.

 

[Horse Armour]

What does this mean for Wii U?

 

[iceatcs]

Hopefully Wii U will join for UE4. I got feeling it will be unlikely.

 

[Blizzard]

Yes, at least in a downward direction.

I'm hoping it is still feasible to run it on 5000-level ATI cards and I don't have to upgrade TOO soon. =P

Also, I am wondering if dynamic lighting is a big reason for no downscaling. Potential lighting system changes are probably the single biggest thing I am looking forward to.

 

[Mr Swine]

I told you guys that Wii U was probably not getting UE4

 

[Bullza2o]

Hopefully Wii U will join for UE4. I got feeling it will be unlikely.

Same here, but oh well. It's usually the Nintendo games that I buy Nintendo consoles for.

 

[Reallink]

So I take it the "behind closed doors and NDA" stipulations "not being their decision" pretty much confirms MS and/or Sony are going to unveil their hardware using UE4 sometime this year--depending on it even.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

damn I hope Nintendo was able to hit the bare bottom of UE4 smh if they repeat being left out again

 

[EloquentM]

This doesn't mean anything for wii u, positive or negative. Wait until the final hardware is released and epic comments on it before you just assume.

 

[Barrel Cannon]

Same here, but oh well. It's usually the Nintendo games that I buy Nintendo consoles for.

This be true. The only Unreal engine titles that I can think of that I liked on a nintendo console is Metroid Prime and the original Splinter Cell(GBA connectivity!!!).

 

[HigherLevel]

I think this says the next gen consoles will be pretty powerful and we'll be hearing something soon.

 

[EatChildren]

So I take it the "behind closed doors" stipulation "not being their decision" pretty much confirms MS and/or Sony are going to unveil their hardware using UE4 sometime this year.

I don't see how it could mean anything else unless the demos they showed were for a game (or games) and a publisher put an NDA on it.

Has to be a Microsoft/Sony thing, and I suspect it might be because it is for a game exclusive to one of those platforms. EG: Gears 4 UE4 tech demo.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

This doesn't mean anything for wii u, positive or negative. Wait until the final hardware is released and epic comments on it before you just assume.

we should really replace NeoGAF believe with NeoGAF assume that is what we do best these days... it has become harder to believe without leaks to believe in

 

[GrizzNKev]

I think this is good news and bad news at the same time. Where the Wii U sits right now, as much of an improvement as it may be over what we currently have in consoles, doesn't seem like a platform for UE4 the way they're talking about.

It means we're going to see a segmentation of what defines multiplatform development in the future. I'm seeing a set of possibilites:

Current-gen + Wii U multiplat: for the next year or so, we'll see UE3 games with scaled visuals down from the top point of the Wii U.

Ultra multiplat: UE3 games that exist on all next-gen and current platforms, with 720, PS4, and Wii U having similar visuals and a downscale to 360 and PS3.

Next-gen - Wii U multiplat: UE4 games on 720 and PS4 only, similar to what we have now.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Yes, at least in a downward direction.

I don't buy that though. I think you're going to see UE4 on stuff as downward as the iOS platforms.

I don't see how it could mean anything else unless the demos they showed were for a game (or games) and a publisher put an NDA on it.

Has to be a Microsoft/Sony thing, and I suspect it might be because it is for a game exclusive to one of those platforms. EG: Gears 4 UE4 tech demo.

Well we know the demo was run on a PC running a new Nvidia GPU, so it has nothing to do with MS or Sony. It probably has to do with one of Epics own games though that may end up on future consoles.

 

[EloquentM]

we should really replace NeoGAF believe with NeoGAF assume that is what we do best these days... it has become harder to believe without leaks to believe in

Idk quotes like this just cater to the speculation bottom feeders, doom spreaders, and fanboys. You can't really take much from the quote other than the wii u, durango, or ps4 were possibly shown running UE4 behind closed doors. In fact they didn't even specify is it was a next gen system they were running it on. All they said was that it was intended for next gen systems. For all we know they could have been running the demo on a pc.

 

[Nirolak]

I don't buy that though. I think you're going to see UE4 on stuff as downward as the iOS platforms.

They're still actively developing Unreal Engine 3, so they can sit on that until iOS platforms eventually become UE4 capable.

I mean, how many games even use UE3's full capabilities on the platform?

 

[Instro]

Yes, at least in a downward direction.

I don't think it not being scalable down to current hardware means that it can't scale downward to some degree. At least that's how I read his statement.

Also, where would that leave ios devices? UE4 not appearing on those platforms for a few years seems like a bit of a misstep. I suppose they could wait, but it would be quite a long wait.

 

[DarkChild]

I'd bet my house on Samaritan being exclusive for nextbox. If president of Epic says NDA's are not their choice, we know they are from MS or Sony, much more likely MS.

 

[iamshadowlark]

Idk quotes like this just cater to the speculation bottom feeders, doom spreaders, and fanboys. You can't really take much from the quote other than the wii u, durango, or ps4 were possibly shown running UE4 behind closed doors. In fact they didn't even specify is it was a next gen system they were running it on. All they said was that it was intended for next gen systems. For all we know they could have been running the demo on a pc.

There is no logical reason that I can of, that would make Epic not be able to show there own product on a PC. The only thing that comes to mind is NDA'd hardware. I mean its awfully strange that we can get all these details about what the UE3 Samaritan demo ran on but non for UE4 which was the main display.

 

[volpone]

Oh man. Nintendo are fools if they haven't been consulting with Epic this time around. UE3 was the biggest middleware engine this gen. If the Wii U can't hit the bottom line of UE4 then third party support will definitely be hampered.

 

[Nirolak]

I don't think it not being scalable down to current hardware means that it can't scale downward to some degree. At least that's how I read his statement.

Also, where would that leave ios devices? UE4 not appearing on those platforms for a few years seems like a bit of a misstep. I suppose they could wait, but it would be quite a long wait.

There's a huge network of people that know UE3, and it's not like it is an incapable engine for most platforms.

I mean, Epic is still leading on iOS with it and getting featured in just about every Apple conference.

 

[Acosta]

I don't think it not being scalable down to current hardware means that it can't scale downward to some degree. At least that's how I read his statement.

Also, where would that leave ios devices? UE4 not appearing on those platforms for a few years seems like a bit of a misstep. I suppose they could wait, but it would be quite a long wait.

UE3. Cheaper, proven, scalable and well known.

UE4 will be an expensive, all guns ablaze engine destined to big studios that can handle such kind of pipeline. No point in thinking about iOS with UE4 at this moment.

 

[iceatcs]

I don't buy that though. I think you're going to see UE4 on stuff as downward as the iOS platforms.

I don't think so it will going further older devices, even UE3 don't support one day and not all iOS do. (only iPhone 3GS or later)

 

[GarthVaderUK]

Well we know the demo was run on a PC running a new Nvidia GPU, so it has nothing to do with MS or Sony. It probably has to do with one of Epics own games though that may end up on future consoles.

I'd have guessed they'd be coding next gen console games on PCs right now - maybe I'm wrong though.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

They're still actively developing Unreal Engine 3, so they can sit on that until iOS platforms eventually become UE4 capable.

I mean, how many games even use UE3's full capabilities on the platform?

I suppose so, but even on PCs are you going to tell me UE4 isn't going to downscale to say a 6670? Do you really think they're going to tell PC devs to make an UE3 and UE4 version of their game for PC? Because UE4 only works on Keplers and Mid to high end 7xxx cards.

I would agree with Instro, I think there's obviously going to be some downward scalability.

I bet my house on Samaritan being exclusive for nextbox. If president of Epic says NDA's are not their choice, we know they are from MS or Sony, much more likely MS.

I wouldn't do that unless you plan on being homeless.

 

[Nirolak]

I don't think so, even UE3 don't support all iOS. (only iPhone 3GS or later)

I feel it's notable that their games even only run with all intended features on the newest devices.

I suppose so, but even on PCs are you going to tell me UE4 isn't going to downscale to say a 6670? Do you really think they're going to tell PC devs to make an UE3 and UE4 version of their game for PC? Because UE4 only works on Keplers and Mid to high end 7xxx cards.

I would agree with Instro, I think there's obviously going to be some downward scalability.

I think they feel the PC market isn't that large and that by 2013 or later there will be a pretty high baseline on what is in PCs for the people who do buy what are primarily console games.

I mean, look at the state of early PC ports from the 360 generation.

 

[themadcowtipper]

I'd bet my house on Samaritan being exclusive for nextbox. If president of Epic says NDA's are not their choice, we know they are from MS or Sony, much more likely MS.

Yes because Nintendo Never uses NDA's....
It coul be any company.
This thread will be amazing to watch how people read this info to further their agendas.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I don't think so it will going further older devices, even UE3 don't support one day and not all iOS do. (only iPhone 3GS or later)

I was speaking more of just current, like the iPad3, and upcoming iOS releases like the iPhone 5. My point was solely that even stuff like that an iPad3 or hell even a future iPad 4 isn't going to be packing the GPU power of the stuff this was demoed on, but I would not be surprised to see UE4 on them.

I'd have guessed they'd be coding next gen console games on PCs right now - maybe I'm wrong though.

Dev kits are in the wild for all 3 next gen systems. If this was running on a dev kit, it would have been said that it was. Saying it was running on a 200 watt GPU is not the same as saying it was running on a dev kit.

 

[EloquentM]

There is no logical reason that I can of, that would make Epic not be able to show there own product on a PC. The only thing that comes to mind is NDA'd hardware. I mean its awfully strange that we can get all these details about what the UE3 Samaritan demo ran on but non for UE4 which was the main display.

The demo could be an actual game in development that's NDA'd

 

[DarkChild]

Yes because Nintendo Never uses NDA's....
It coul be any company.
This thread will be amazing to watch how people read this info to further their agendas.

What fucking agenda? I'm neither MS or Nintendo employee, I'm just guessing. Epic would surely love to work on another MS exclusive, while MS would definitely want system seller like Gears was this gen. Since Sony and Nintendo are better regarding 1st party games output, and considering Epic/MS relationship and recent Durango rumors I guess that could be it. You guys are taking this to seriously, really. Only people having agenda lately are Nintendo fanboys who are constantly reassuring themselves that Sony and MS won't go crazy for next gen and give definite answered like the guy who quoted me before on this page while not knowing shit like the rest of us.

 

[iamshadowlark]

The demo could be an actual game in development that's NDA'd

IMO that is less likely than it being console HW. I don't think Epic has ever displayed there engine with their customer's IP. Not initially anyway. I also doubt that they have licensed their current crown jewel tech to anybody this early either.

 

[scitek]

I don't buy that though. I think you're going to see UE4 on stuff as downward as the iOS platforms.



Well we know the demo was run on a PC running a new Nvidia GPU, so it has nothing to do with MS or Sony. It probably has to do with one of Epics own games though that may end up on future consoles.

I have a feeling UE3 will still be in use several years from now and everyone will be pissed because they'll feel UE4's going to waste.

 

[themadcowtipper]

What fucking agenda? I'm neither MS or Nintendo employee, I'm just guessing. Epic would surely love to work on another MS exclusive, while MS would definitely want system seller like Gears was this gen. Since Sony and Nintendo are better regarding 1st party games output, and considering Epic/MS relationship and recent Durango rumors I guess that could be it. You guys are taking this to seriously, really. Only people having agenda lately are Nintendo fanboys who are constantly reassuring themselves that Sony and MS won't go crazy for next gen and give definite answered like the guy who quoted me before on this page while not knowing shit like the rest of us.

my agenda comment was in general, not directed towards anyone. Look at the posts, no info in the article, everyone assumes it is MS. BTW I own a 360, wii and ps3. I do the majority of my game playing on the 360.
The reason I quoted you was about the ,NDA you said it would most likely be ms or sony.All 3 use NDA's..

 

[Father_Brain]

I have a feeling UE3 will still be in use several years from now and everyone will be pissed because they'll feel UE4's going to waste.

I think that's plausible, but it probably won't be until well into 2013 that we start to get a real sense of how things are playing out in that respect.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I think they feel the PC market isn't that large and that by 2013 or later there will be a pretty high baseline on what is in PCs for the people who do buy what are primarily console games.

I mean, look at the state of early PC ports from the 360 generation.

I totally get what you're saying. Though wasn't similar things said about DirectX11? How long has that been out? and are we seeing all games releasing DX11 versions yet? That is a legitimate question as I don't have the numbers for that, but are we seeing PC games releasing with DX11 support across the board? I think if you haven't seen devs fully 100% accept that yet, then expecting a UE4, that doesn't down scale some what, seems really risky. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see in time.

Its like you mentioned that UE3 on the iOS platforms has a lot of features turned off, I think you'd be able to see the same for an UE4, but again we'll see.

 

[magash]

I have a feeling UE3 will still be in use several years from now and everyone will be pissed because they'll feel UE4's going to waste.

I also agree. I think the biggest stumbling block to UE4 acceptance, implementation and usage might be the prohibitive cost of development this gen. For Gods sake a game with average graphics and yearly iterations like the COD series cost $40 million just to develop.

The CEO of UBISOFT said he expects the cost of development to rise to $60 million this coming gen...this is ridiculous. UE3+ is still going to be used well into UE4's life span.

 

[DarkChild]

my agenda comment was in general, not direct towards anyone. Look at the posts no info in the article, everyone assumes it is MS. BTW I own a 360, wii and ps3. I do the majority of my game playing on the 360.

I'm not saying you have agenda, I just said I would bet on another console manufacturer being behind it, most likely MS. You know, if they announce it later this year (or in 2013) and than say "look, Samaritan is running on our system", thats why I think Rein said that even he doesn't know if his engine demo will be shown this year.

 

[DarkChild]

I also agree. I think the biggest stumbling block to UE4 acceptance, implementation and usage might be the prohibitive cost of development this gen. For Gods sake a game with average graphics and yearly iterations like the COD series cost $40 million just to develop.

The CEO of UBISOFT said he expects the cost of development to rise to $60 million this coming gen...this is ridiculous. UE3+ is still going to be used well into UE4's life span.

Biggest step was already made this gen. The biggest cost of development is asset creation. Higher quality assets=more cost. But this gen every developer makes high quality assets and than scales it for their games, those assets are something you could see next gen. Maybe even better.

Big big advantage of UE4 is deferred rendering pipeline, everything is dynamic and there is no reason to bake lights and shadows which are time consuming and restricting with open world games and destruction.

 

[jaypah]

Ok, I'm confused here. Was Samaritan shown running on UE3 on NVIDIA hardware to the press AND running UE4 behind closed doors? I can't find where they said the private UE4 demo was running on NVIDIA hardware. I think the possibility of the UE4 demo running on unannounced console hardware increases if it wasn't confirmed to be running on an NVIDIA GPU.

 

[iamshadowlark]

I'm not saying you have agenda, I just said I would bet on another console manufacturer being behind it, most likely MS. You know, if they announce it later this year (or in 2013) and than say "look, Samaritan is running on our system", thats why I think Rein said that even he doesn't know if his engine demo will be shown this year.

Exactly, if it was because of some secret game it would be very easy for them to come up with a couple assets and show their engine this year. The fact that he says "its not up to us" tells alot.

Ok, I'm confused here. Was Samaritan shown running on UE3 on NVIDIA hardware to the press AND running UE4 behind closed doors? I can't find where they said the private UE4 demo was running on NVIDIA hardware. I think the possibility of the UE4 demo running on unannounced console hardware increases if it wasn't confirmed to be running on an NVIDIA GPU.

They didnt, the UE3 Samaritan demo was what we got tech details from.

 

[StevieP]

This be true. The only Unreal engine titles that I can think of that I liked on a nintendo console is Metroid Prime and the original Splinter Cell(GBA connectivity!!!).

Metroid Prime didn't use UE2.

IMO that is less likely than it being console HW. I don't think Epic has ever displayed there engine with their customer's IP. Not initially anyway. I also doubt that they have licensed their current crown jewel tech to anybody this early either.

I would say you're correct. I know you're into the graphics field - do you know if Kepler is still under extremely strict NDAs? As of December you couldn't even whipser it without Nvidia lawyers lol

 

[jaypah]

They didnt, the UE3 Samaritan demo was what we got tech details from.

That's what I thought. Thanks.

 

[magash]

Biggest step was already made this gen. The biggest cost of development is asset creation. Higher quality assets=more cost. But this gen every developer makes high quality assets and than scales it for their games, those assets are something you could see next gen. Maybe even better.

Big big advantage of UE4 is deferred rendering pipeline, everything is dynamic and there is no reason to bake lights and shadows which are time consuming and restricting with open world games and destruction.

Then why did the CEO of UBISOFT claim he expects the budgets of next gen games to go as high as $60 million.
http://kotaku.com/5293126/ubisoft-ceo-expects-60-million-game-budgets-next-gen

 

[iamshadowlark]

Metroid Prime didn't use UE2.



I would say you're correct. I know you're into the graphics field - do you know if Kepler is still under extremely strict NDAs? As of December you couldn't even whipser it without Nvidia lawyers lol

I wish. Im not "in" the grapics field, its just where I study and most of my knowledge is. I'm trying to get a job though when I seperate from the military.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

It makes sense at this point in the generation (last year or so) to move to a much more capable engine, re-tooling an engine again and again becomes harder and less rewarding.

The use of UE3, particularly in the mobile sector is logical. Developers know the engine inside out. It has great tools, is quick and efficient to use and (in the right hands) can produce great results.

Like many here I feel this points to a Microsoft exclusive (Gears 4). If the Nextbox launches with Gears of War 4, running on significantly more capable hardware using UE4...it will move lots of hardware. No question.