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Kid Icarus should be held more accountable for it's controls
- Thread starter AgentOtaku
- Start date
This thread is weird. Almost everyone that's defended the game says the controls are/were a problem, but they're offering excuses like "you get used to it".
You can still be a fan of the game and criticize it, folks. You don't have to defend everything about a game you love.
I have never played it, but the controls are clearly an issue for a majority of people (at some point in their play experience).
You can still be a fan of the game and criticize it, folks. You don't have to defend everything about a game you love.
I have never played it, but the controls are clearly an issue for a majority of people (at some point in their play experience).
That's awesome. hahahahaha
The_Darkest_Red
Member
Indeed. I'm a big fan of Peace Walker but I find the controls in that game far worse than the ones in KI.
I think it's more that people (some of them, anyway) who love the game have gotten through the learning curve period (as well as the period of fine-tuning settings) to the point where they generally think the controls are good and work very well for the game. That's where I am, anyway.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Totally agree with OP. I LOVE the game, but there's no way around it. These controls are broken. At first it didn't seem like an issue at all. I'm almost halfway through the game now though and my right wrist sore. And I'm not even marathoning. Just doing a level a day.
For what it's worth, I love the stand though as I always wanted to play the 3DS while lying down on my stomach without actually holding the handheld up. It'll be great with other games. Unfortunately it's nowhere near fixing the problem with Kid Icarus though.
For what it's worth, I love the stand though as I always wanted to play the 3DS while lying down on my stomach without actually holding the handheld up. It'll be great with other games. Unfortunately it's nowhere near fixing the problem with Kid Icarus though.
Version 3.0
Member
I have a bigger problem with the single action button than the stylus aiming. This would've been a fantastic Wii game, and there would be 4 action buttons available with the Wiimote/nunchuck setup, instead of just 1 on the 3DS.
When your "portable" game ships with a stand, maybe the damn game shouldn't be releasing on a portable system.
When your "portable" game ships with a stand, maybe the damn game shouldn't be releasing on a portable system.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
This is an opinion that I honestly can't argue with. I think KI would have been a fantastic Wii game (and probably better than it is on 3DS). Luckily for me I'm a huge fan of handheld gaming so it ends up not bothering me, but I can definitely understand that perspective.
Well, I never claimed they were a problem!
diffusionx
Gold Member
I played Moon on the DS and liked it. But it was a fairly slow paced game and this is not.
I played a few chapters of Kid Icarus and the game is good. I don't think dual analog would be an optimal setup. The game is way too fast for that.
I know all the fans will say that people just need to "get used to it", or "realize what Sakurai was going for", but that's missing the point. The controls are pretty awkward, even if you understand what Sakurai was going for and are trying to get used to it. Ultimately it's irrelevant - these controls are problematic.
BUT... I don't think the problem is the stylus.The problem is the weird position I need to put my left hand in because of the L button. Rather than a stand, they should have shipped this game with an adapter that let me press the L button from lower in the system, in a more natural grip.
I played a few chapters of Kid Icarus and the game is good. I don't think dual analog would be an optimal setup. The game is way too fast for that.
I know all the fans will say that people just need to "get used to it", or "realize what Sakurai was going for", but that's missing the point. The controls are pretty awkward, even if you understand what Sakurai was going for and are trying to get used to it. Ultimately it's irrelevant - these controls are problematic.
BUT... I don't think the problem is the stylus.The problem is the weird position I need to put my left hand in because of the L button. Rather than a stand, they should have shipped this game with an adapter that let me press the L button from lower in the system, in a more natural grip.
Um...
N64 controller
Gamecube Controller
Wiimote
DS Touchscreen
just to name a few reasons
You're not allowed to have that opinion!
But seriously, I'm sure it's a fantastic game, but people shouldn't be making excuses for controls. Controls should be intuitive off the bat. Some people might only play the first hour and be frustrated that they're not understanding the controls and either return or sell the game.
Which would be a shame as I've heard it's a great game. Fans should WANT easy to use controls so more people can enjoy the game, thus leading to a healthy multiplayer community and more sales.
ShockingAlberto
Member
For me, personally? As someone that enjoys the game?
I got used to the controls. They're awkward, but I never reached a point of frustration with them. If I had, maybe I would have dumped the game, maybe not. But there was a learning curve that did not outstrip the amount of fun I was having, so once the game clicked, it stopped being a concern.
This is were I 100% disagree. First of all, the Wii version will be gimped graphically, largely because it can only dream of pulling off the shaders and particle effects found this game. Secondly, how can someone honestly take IR over both the 3DS' gyroscope AND touchscreen (both of which I think are far superior and more intuitive than the Wii's IR)?
Anyways, this game is a game with great scope made with the 3DS in mind all the way through.
Um...
N64 controller
Gamecube Controller
Wiimote
DS Touchscreen
just to name a few reasons
......Whoa.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Because the action gets too hectic for other methods to use. At least they give you the option to use the face buttons or the circle pad, but you will find soon it is not as accurate.
That would be Apple fans.
But it goes both ways. There's sects on GAF that seem to be unable to control anything that doesn't use dual analog. Like some mental block in their brains determined that almost any touch or gesture based controls are impossibly broken.
Game also has a crapload of adjustable sliders and do dads when it comes to controls.
My first hour of the game was spent on the target range.
Also to add a bit more to this, I'm a lefty and depending on which weapon I'm using I switch up the controls. I don't need to be super accurate with claws for example so I go XBAY reticule with the sensitivity way up and left pad movement, but when I'm using something to snipe I used either right handed stylus or CC Pro aiming.
Also the very premise of the thread is a bit pointless. Literally the only thing any reviewer has to say about the game is that the controls are bad and everything else is top notch. This goes for the lower and the higher rated reviews.
My first hour of the game was spent on the target range.
Also to add a bit more to this, I'm a lefty and depending on which weapon I'm using I switch up the controls. I don't need to be super accurate with claws for example so I go XBAY reticule with the sensitivity way up and left pad movement, but when I'm using something to snipe I used either right handed stylus or CC Pro aiming.
Also the very premise of the thread is a bit pointless. Literally the only thing any reviewer has to say about the game is that the controls are bad and everything else is top notch. This goes for the lower and the higher rated reviews.
That's because the people saying this actually do get used to the controls, and "getting used to" doesn't mean "tolerating," it means the controls literally become perfectly fine, so you don't even notice them and so you even enjoy them. That was the case with me after warming up in Training and then working through the first couple chapters. I've been playing it fine ever since, sitting in my chair, holding the system in my hand, using default controls, with sensitivity maxed on the aiming and camera stopping. I love it.
I'm a right hander so I guess I can't say much to counter the OP. I personally find it to be one of the best game experiences I've ever played.
The game was designed for a touch screen interface, and whether or not it's perfectly comfortable, it's the way the game is and with a dual-analog setup it wouldn't be the same. KI:U's unique value is the speed and dexterity to which you can move and aim Pit. Some of the multiplayer matches are just wild, and I honestly feel that would be lost in a dual analog setup. It's like a blistering fast Dragon Ball Z style fight.
I find the 3DS uncomfortable to begin with. Any game I play hurts my hands because it's too damn small and I have big hands. So I bought a grip for the controller, and now everything is fine. Part of the reason KI:U works so well for me is that grip. I can't recommend one highly enough.
Just to note, the game is apparently patch-able. Send a letter to Nintendo. It shouldn't be too much work to get the CCpro analog to act as the aim/movement.
The game was designed for a touch screen interface, and whether or not it's perfectly comfortable, it's the way the game is and with a dual-analog setup it wouldn't be the same. KI:U's unique value is the speed and dexterity to which you can move and aim Pit. Some of the multiplayer matches are just wild, and I honestly feel that would be lost in a dual analog setup. It's like a blistering fast Dragon Ball Z style fight.
I find the 3DS uncomfortable to begin with. Any game I play hurts my hands because it's too damn small and I have big hands. So I bought a grip for the controller, and now everything is fine. Part of the reason KI:U works so well for me is that grip. I can't recommend one highly enough.
Just to note, the game is apparently patch-able. Send a letter to Nintendo. It shouldn't be too much work to get the CCpro analog to act as the aim/movement.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
True, I see your points. I'll meet you somewhere in the middle --- I think the 3DS version would probably still be my favorite for the reasons you mentioned along with the fact that I love handheld games in general but I still think a Wii version of the game could have been great. That doesn't mean I want a Wii version though, I'm totally satisfied with what I have, I'm just looking at it from the perspective of those who would have preferred it on the Wii.
Yep, same for me (except I still like the stand), and the controls are actually designed in a way that once you finally start to master them you just feel completely and totally in the zone.That's because the people saying this in fact do get used to the controls, and "getting used to" doesn't mean "tolerating," it means the controls literally become perfectly fine, so you don't even notice them and so you even enjoy them. That was the case with me after warming up in Training and then working through the first couple chapters. I've been playing it fine ever since, sitting in my chair, holding the system in my hand, using default controls, with sensitivity maxed on the aiming and camera stopping. I love it.
I simply don't see this as completely objective. Sure sometimes controls are not responsive and actually do not work. Some Wii games had waggle controls that actually did not function. However, I personally like a wide variety of control options and see that there are also a wide variety of skill levels with different control mechanisms.
I'm bad at Dual Analog shooting, but I don't hate the control method. I try to examine if I'm the problem or if I feel the controls are broken and it's more of a continuum than a "this is just objectively bad" thing for me.
The amount of enjoyment I get out of the game in general is also important. I LOVE Fire Pro Wrestling, which has good controls but very particular timing. It's frustrating for new people to play and difficult for me at times, but my enjoyment of game is greater than my frustration.
This extends beyond just "Nintendo fans" and is more about how an individual likes to play games and what their threshold is for different games. This is why so many people see this as subjective. The experience is more complex than "broken or not broken" and "Nintendo fanboy vs other gamers."
UncleSporky
Member
This is going to be a quote-heavy post, so I apologize for that...
Throughout this thread there have been a lot of people anticipating horrible controls for lefties, pitying us etc.:
So I wanted to see how true this is. Basically a survey of how many lefties are fine with the controls in Kid Icarus vs. those who dislike them.
I searched this whole thread and collected every leftie quote I could find, and here are the results.
Lefties who are fine the controls:
*raises hand* I use a CPP and the controls are fine, and I tried it using the buttons for movement and could definitely adjust to that as well.
Lefties who do not like the controls:
Likes: 14
Dislikes: 3
And that's just this thread, I expect there are quite a few more in the 132 page OT. I can dive in there too if I need to.
Actually I kind of doubt the ratio is much different for right handed people. Heck, it might even be worse.
So people pitying us lefties, don't! We generally like the game! And lefties who aren't buying it because they expect to hate it, maybe take a closer look!
Would anyone else like to chime in on this point, add your leftie voice to the tally?
Throughout this thread there have been a lot of people anticipating horrible controls for lefties, pitying us etc.:
So I wanted to see how true this is. Basically a survey of how many lefties are fine with the controls in Kid Icarus vs. those who dislike them.
I searched this whole thread and collected every leftie quote I could find, and here are the results.
Lefties who are fine the controls:
*raises hand* I use a CPP and the controls are fine, and I tried it using the buttons for movement and could definitely adjust to that as well.
storafötter;36493881 said:
Lefties who do not like the controls:
Likes: 14
Dislikes: 3
And that's just this thread, I expect there are quite a few more in the 132 page OT. I can dive in there too if I need to.
Actually I kind of doubt the ratio is much different for right handed people. Heck, it might even be worse.
So people pitying us lefties, don't! We generally like the game! And lefties who aren't buying it because they expect to hate it, maybe take a closer look!
Would anyone else like to chime in on this point, add your leftie voice to the tally?
Why is that when someone likes (or doesn't have a problem with) a Nintendo game is labeled as a "Nintendo fan"?
Heck, I know PS3 fanboys that love Kid Icarus and have no problems with the controller.
*******
That there should've been more customization options, that many don't like and don't comfortable with any of the possible combinations; yeah.
And I don't know the whole "should be held accountable"...for what?
Should we bake cupcakes and send them to Nintendo now? Should we travel back in time and force Sega to include a "simpler" setup for Gunvalkyrie? While there, go back even more and force Bungie to fix the Warthog controls of Halo (1) with a patch?
Of course the OT is going to have more people voicing their disappointment with the controls. Same way we have more threads complaining about how much Gamestop sucks. People that not like something tend to be more vocal about it, than the ones that do like it.
Reviewers that had problems with the controls of Kid Icarus deducted points, reviewers that didn't; well.. didn't deducted points.
Heck, sometimes even adding more customization doesn't solve "problems". Look at Monster Hunter Tri G on the 3DS and how you can put a bunch of things, camera controls plus and the entire HUD on the lower screen, and people still talk about "the claw" about a second analog been mandatory".
There's no law that every game should have controls that please each and everyone. They "try to"; but of course they always don't. Even people had and have problems with "waggle" in DK Country Returns and New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Same way people that have played Zelda NES "now" don't like the lack of directions and only having A and B to put items. The games were ruined to them too; like most games...maybe a sequel will "fix" this; maybe it won't.
That's great that they feel natural after an hour, but in my opinion that's a failure. Maybe it's my business mind coming through, but they should be intuitive and natural right away. The developer shouldn't risk losing sales or having potential trade ins or resales. They should want as many people buying and keeping the game as possible.
Again, this post has nothing to do with the quality of the rest of the game.
Again, this post has nothing to do with the quality of the rest of the game.
For me the game is virtually unplayable without the stand. Playing the game as a portable, aka without the stand, left me with severe pain in my left hand after about 30 minutes of play. Shit, even with the stand, it is still fundamentally awkward.
Its a shame as I love everything else about the game
Its a shame as I love everything else about the game
StAidan
Member
This.
People saying controls should be immediately intuitive should stop and think about what makes controls intuitive in the first place -- because usually, intuitiveness is heavily related to past experience.
Dual analog would never have been invented with that mindset, but it was invented, because developers saw the limitations of existing control schemes and thought, "how can we make this work?"
I don't use the stand or CPP.
Took me a few hours to find a position where the controls ate tight and comfortable. Air battles were always perfect as everyone says, ground combat took 2-3 chapters before I got accustomed to them.
One of the greatest handheld games in the past 10 years.
Took me a few hours to find a position where the controls ate tight and comfortable. Air battles were always perfect as everyone says, ground combat took 2-3 chapters before I got accustomed to them.
One of the greatest handheld games in the past 10 years.
Guys, I did find a beautiful revelation about the motorcycle controls (I hated them at first).
Don't use the stylus!
Just use the Analog. The camera moves as if it is any other motorcycle game.
All you have to use the stylus for now is the speed-boost.
....as soon as I learned this it clicked and these sections are enjoyable and easy to play.
Don't use the stylus!
Just use the Analog. The camera moves as if it is any other motorcycle game.
All you have to use the stylus for now is the speed-boost.
....as soon as I learned this it clicked and these sections are enjoyable and easy to play.
You could probably make up for the graphics, but it'd still be Wii quality. Western sales will suffer as a result (who buys FPS's for the Wii, really?), and so will Japanese sales, since 'gamer' games just doesn't sell on the Wii in Japan.
The different states of handheld gaming between regions is probably going to affect people's reception to the controls. People that's hated the controls so far probably aren't going to grab a grip even if a thousand people online recommend it. Doubt 95% of the people complaining here will ever try suggestions offered, whether it be because they think it's condescending or they're only popping in to bitch and then going to another thread or because they can never be wrong (at least on the net). People in Japan will probably have an easier time: like with Monster Hunter and the Claw, they're going to see their buddies playing with grips, with an extra arm holding the thing some weird way, an extra finger on the pen-holding side, or whatever and figure out the best way to do things themselves.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Yeah, I used that, too. I don't think the motorcycle even aims where you're pointing.
I'll have to try that out. As for the speed boost, you can just use your Power toggle button to activate it which helps in the thick of things.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
That's a great point, actually. I think the learning curve I had when I first played Halo was far greater than the one I've had with KI. A learning curve is inevitable when developers try something new and somewhat risky, and I don't think that should be a reason for them to hold back. Kid Icarus is the awesome game it is because of the chances that were taken with it.
Yeah, that's how I play those sections as well. They could still be smoother but they're certainly manageable.
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
Where I got really good at the controls is multiplayer. Go get baptized by fire and you will come out with a great grasp of the controls(or really mad, haha). Single player got nothing on me.
Completely new hardware is a different beast. This is about using old hardware in new ways, especially when people have been using said hardware for 7+ years. But since we're talking hardware...
Wii was intuitive, and had massive sales. Anyone can pick up a Wii and know how to use it. Nintendo is usually great at this "it's so natural feeling!" stuff. Not so much in KI.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
While I agree that the chance of people enjoying the controls are higher than most people would expect from this thread, let's make sure we don't fall into the trap of argumentum ad populum.
EDIT:
I can't agree with that one.
StAidan
Member
I'll concede that the age of the hardware might factor into some users' willingness to learn something new.
You're right, the Wii was extremely intuitive, but I'd argue that that's largely due to the fact that the Wii's motion controls weren't actually new -- they used motions that strongly corresponded to real-life actions that people start learning from childhood.
UncleSporky
Member
Actually this very thread gives a pretty glowing recommendation of the game. See above for lefties alone, and I noticed a lot of right-handers who were fine with it as well as I was going through.
The thread is mostly arguing back and forth from a few people, one offs saying they have the game and the controls are fine, and one offs saying they aren't buying the game because they heard it was so bad.
Then, why many (around here) had problems with Wii games like Twilight Princess (launch title), Skyward Sword (released a few months ago) and many other games like Donkey Kong or New Mario because of the "unnecessary waggle" in those 2 last cases?
Is not like Nintendo designs the games specifically, so that some people have problems with.
rollingstart
Banned
It's partly defending and partly how close minded people can be when it comes to empathizing with others. I'm mostly fine with the control, as in, the game is playable, but doesn't feel as good as it should. And that's just me. I can't blame others who have problems, especially left handed gamers.
More options would've been a good thing. If people like the current controls, they can play with them. If people wanted dual analog, do that. I would've liked more customization for the touch screen from increasing speed past the current max, adjusting dead zone, locking cursor, separate sliders for turn and aim, and other aiming related options.
The other problem is how many actions are mapped to the analog stick. If you could map dash/evade to a button, or add a new 'touch' zone on the screen that activates it, it would prevent those situations where I want to move a tiny bit but Pit dashes off a platform. I've also seen people request a better way to handle powers, like mapping a powers to d-pad directions instead of cycling through them.
also, one more grip suggestion is the Hori Mario Kart Racing Wheel. Good pictures from another thread:
My 3DS wheel arrived today. Really great fit and build quality, it even provides bigger L and R triggers.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B006CDLRK6/ £9.99
It's wheel shaped so your pinky moves inward as opposed to outward with normal grips, but it has large handles with deep grooves. There's a mechanism that makes the shoulder buttons larger and moves them further back; the shoulder buttons come down the side too, making them really easy to press. Plus it adds more space between the edge of the system and the analog/buttons, and it's rounded.
It almost feels as good as holding a console controller (360/Gamecube, not PS2) and the only thing holding it back is the wheel shape. But I use it for 3DS games that don't need the CPP, mostly for home use since it is quite bulky.
UncleSporky
Member
Should I go through and take stock of right hander testimony as well?
Honestly seems like this thread is nothing but vocal minority.
The only thing I'm arguing is that the controls, to a vast majority of people, take some time to get used to. For a lot of people, they eventually click. For some, they don't.
That is not how controlling a game SHOULD work on a platform that has been around for ages. You risk scaring people away before they even get into the game.
That is literally all I'm saying. From a business/mass market standpoint, this aspect is a failure. From a gameplay/quality/enjoyment standpoint, that's all opinion-based and I'm not touching that with a hundred meter stick. My comments had nothing to do with how good or bad the game is, at all, but were simply from the viewpoint of the mass public that would potentially purchase this game (and keep it).
That is not how controlling a game SHOULD work on a platform that has been around for ages. You risk scaring people away before they even get into the game.
That is literally all I'm saying. From a business/mass market standpoint, this aspect is a failure. From a gameplay/quality/enjoyment standpoint, that's all opinion-based and I'm not touching that with a hundred meter stick. My comments had nothing to do with how good or bad the game is, at all, but were simply from the viewpoint of the mass public that would potentially purchase this game (and keep it).
The_Darkest_Red
Member
I don't know, the game is selling well in Japan and it's got excellent word of mouth so I'm just not sure that's the case. A learning curve isn't ideal, of course, but I think there are certain games that by their very nature require one. I don't think KI could have been done to such an excellent extent without somewhat of a learning curve.
Only time will tell I suppose, but I think KI will be fine from a business perspective.