bgassassin
Member
Me personally I wouldn't read much into the memory model of it. With the likelihood of Sony using a UMA and that being GDDR5, the Jaguar's memory controller may not be relevant since it's most like designed for DDRx memory.
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IGN rumour: PS4 to have '2 GPUs' - one APU based + one discrete
- Thread starter gofreak
- Start date
Me personally I wouldn't read much into the memory model of it. With the likelihood of Sony using a UMA and that being GDDR5, the Jaguar's memory controller may not be relevant since it's most like designed for DDRx memory.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Won't a system with multiple CPUs and Unified Memory Addressing need some way to schedule memory access (reason for fabric model) and GDDR memory logic unusable? Possible that the PS4 memory inside the the SOC is fabric model with a second memory pool outside the SOC and used by both the SOC and GCN GPU. New wrinkle?
I did a quick search and found that IBM has been planning to abandon Cell since 2010.
The article also speaks to Sony going with AMD's fusion.
There will probably not be a Cell/RSX single chip. So there will probably never be an add-on that would support BC in the PS4. BC might only be achieved through software.
The article also speaks to Sony going with AMD's fusion.
There will probably not be a Cell/RSX single chip. So there will probably never be an add-on that would support BC in the PS4. BC might only be achieved through software.
Yeah, good luck with that lol
evil solrac v3.0
Member
jeff_rigby
Banned
PS4 hardware issues - won't arrive in 2013?
Last Updated: 30th Apr 2012
Last Updated: 30th Apr 2012
Put this rumor together with Jaguar CPU and Sony could be implementing 2014 AMD Tech (SOC & Fabric computing).
Gemüsepizza
Member
Wait, the source said Sony is restructuring the PS4 hardware, and this website says this means there won't be a PS4 in 2013? I don't think this is necessarily the case. I heavily doubt this will be a massive restructuring, for example a change of the CPU architecture, more likely something like additional RAM.
Death sentence. The only way to redeem themselves is to put in Android no matter the cost.
Stacking issues perhaps. And of course there are a lot of beneficial industry movements in 2013/214.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Already done by AMD
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36843444&postcount=995 said:
Also possible. Really so much happening 2013-2014 it could be anything. As others have said, even waiting a few months could make possible a major feature, more speed, cheaper design etc.Ashes1396 said:
First truly HSA arch only in 2014.. June and the AMD developer conference will have more news.
Allows efficiencies for a total of 113%: http://www.amdzone.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=532&t=139067#p216589
This applies to FPGAs as well, the CPU has hardware like branch prediction that GPUs and FPGA do not have. CPUs can make decisions for GP GPUS and other CPUs and pre-fetch data. This is 2014 tech and probably requires changes to the CPU, a reason for Jaguar?
In 2014 they plan to be implementing actual HSA standards which stands for Heterogeneous Systems Architecture.
2014 designed Fusion SOC with true HSA could include multiple third party "IP" CPUs like Cell SPUs, FPGA, DSP...
http://netmgt.blogspot.com/2012/04/power-amd-itanium-and-sparc.html said:
Always-honest
Banned
Good launch lineup is more like it.
jeff_rigby
Banned
You are probably correct, SPUs would not be needed but it's still possible. How about a FPGA? DSPs do not need bandwidth, FPGAs, GPUs and CPUs do need memory bandwidth. DSPs can be in the APU just to reduce MB complexity and to get data from the USB 3.0 that should be in the APU.
Read this thread from page 20, now re-read the March 2 SimiAccurate post. It now sounds to me like he is trying to protect a source as he hits every point but in vague terms; catching EVERY point is not vague.
Yes I know it's recursive speculation based on too few rumors and News articles but the March 2 SimiAcurate post is before the AMD investor meeting or the April 12th 2.5 & 3D stacking PDF I posted.
tinfoilhatman
all of my posts are my avatar
If Sony launches more than 2-3 months after Microshaft their DOA here in the states.
you mean like the one Vita had?
They can't be late, no matter how good the launch lineup is.
you mean like the Wii & PS3 was DOA last time?
I think this time around it would be better to come out later, I really don't see many people rushing out to by a new console next year unless it's a real game changer like a Apple Console or something really cool that get's everyone talking or a really big game that can't be played on the old consoles.
there has to be a really big buzz over the next year for the 1st Console that comes out or it's going to be a really slow start so that head start won't mean much if the Consoles that's coming out later has the right price & games when it come out & create a bigger buzz.
Gemüsepizza
Member
Different target group? And it is a fact that the PS3 had a hard time in the beginning, although they recovered incredibly well.
I don't get how people can really think next gen console sales will be slow. People are hungering for new tech, they will sell like hot cakes.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Gemüsepizza said:
And we know exactly to whom these new machines are being targetted, in terms of launch titles, online platform, features and services etc.
PS3 suffered because it was outrageously, prohibitively, expensive and had a weak launch line-up.
Are we really going to make the same mistakes we made last gen when anticipating who was going to come out on top?
Gemüsepizza;37504683 said:
who's to say that Sony won't go for a different target group?
Gemüsepizza;37504683 said:
PS3 had a pretty good 1st year for a $600 Console going up against a new $250 console from Nintendo & a cheaper HD console that already had a year head start into the HD console race.
Gemüsepizza;37504683 said:
the new Consoles are really going to need something new to separate them from the PS3,Xbox 360, wii & iOS gaming & a few 'it' games if they want to get the masses to upgrade or pay a higher price for the new hardware over getting the cheaper consoles that's already out that's good enough for most people's gaming needs.
tinfoilhatman
all of my posts are my avatar
Really, you don't see the painfully obvious differences this time around?
PS3 had BluRay and HUGE momentum from PS2 and Wii is Nintendo(which a certain group of people will always support) and was kinda a one time casual phenomenon with the motion controls.
Xbox is now pretty much synonymous with Video Games and I don't see that changing anytime soon, Sony has to launch first(or at the same time) and deliver an INCREDIBLE product(and lineup and price) in order to stand head to head with Microsoft this time around.
Sony had a huge amount of goodwill from consumers and developers going into this gen. If it weren't for that, they'd have never recovered from the botched launch.
They don't have that luxury going forward. They need to absolutely knock it out of the park with PS4 from day one.
They don't have that luxury going forward. They need to absolutely knock it out of the park with PS4 from day one.
I have a feeling they're getting their first parties working on PS4 ASAP so as not to have as dry of a first year as the PS3 did. It seems like ND, SSM, Ready at Dawn, Guerrilla, Sucker Punch, and Media Molecule are all looking forward to new IPs and installments and I doubt they're all aiming for the end of the PS3 next year. I have a feeling that GoW: A is the last big first party game we'll see for the PS3.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Burai said:
Absolutely meaningless considering Sony never capitalized upon the groundswell of third-party support they had for PS2, partly because they didn't follow MS's lead of buying exclusivity but also because they had to maintain PS2 support for the first couple of years of the PS3's life.
The difference maker was XBL. Period. Because it dovetailed extremely well with the then "new hotness" of online gaming. The real coup-de-grace though was the way this new connected environment was taken up by the enthusiast press, creating a buzz within that community which helped to evangelize the product.
It also needs to be said that Sony didn't do themselves any favours with anyone through their arrogance, not to mention the numerous PR gaffes and debacles that haunted them for years peaking with last years PSN hack, which ironically seems to have marked a turning point in their public image. They appear to have "bottomed-out" so-to-speak, leaving nowhere to go but up.
Long story short, its not just about release-timing. To focus on that is a gross oversimplification of a complex situation. Because if nothing else, what should be taken from this generation is that noone is too big to fail.
H_Prestige
Banned
From what I remember in 2006, there wasn't that much hype about the ps3 because it was fucking expensive and it wasn't really worth it for most people. I think a lot more people were excited about the wii, and the sales obviously prove that. So I don't understand the idea that Sony had all this momentum going into this gen. They might have if they played their cards right, but they just kind crashed and fumbled their way towards launch. They didn't have any sort of momentum going in.
It was the success of PS2 that kept developers on board in spite of the difficulty in programming for PS3. It was the multi platform development model that kept Sony in the game when Microsoft should have steamrolled them.
Had third parties known in advance just how slowly PS3 would have sold, they may not have been so charitable.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Lots of good comments in the last few post except for the doom if not launched at the same time as the Xbox.
Look at the features that will be in the AMD APU/SOC as a standard: AMD supplied PDF showing features in APU chipset with MANY future game console related must have features Carefully read all features!!!!!!
Notice infinity view can have 4 1080P screens side by side for a total of 8K by 4K which is what the Sony CTO mentioned as one of the goals <grin>.
Single Large Surface (SLS) mode is activated when you create an AMD Eyefinity technology display group in the AMD Catalyst™ Control Center. SLS mode combines the resolutions of all the connected displays, and then essentially “tricks” the operating system into believing that there is one display with that large combined resolution.http://mandetech.com/2012/01/10/sony-masaaki-tsuruta-interview/ said:
Will Xbox have the same, only if they go with an AMD APU also which seems likely and means both should launch at the same time. Problem solved!
Only if Sony is waiting for something like a FPGA to include in the APU is there a chance that the PS4 could launch later. It that case the FPGA advantages will show up and should impact sales within the first 2 years.
So is Nintendo & PlayStation
Sony don't have to launch 1st , Nintendo is in need of a new console not Sony & MS.
PS3 is doing good right now & it's the same price the Wii was at launch & this is almost 6 years later. they are bringing out games that will appeal to younger gamers now & the price is right for the younger gamers & might even go lower over the next year.
unless WiiU is priced at around $250 - $300 this Christmas is going to be really good for PS3 if the price drop,
you talk like MS is running away with gaming right now while Sony is in the back running out of breath waiting for a tag in.
test_account
XP-39C²
True, i dont mean that graphics is a defining factor in general, but it could boost interest in a game. CoD sold a lot more on PS3/Xbox 360, and i think that this is due to the different hardware capabilities.
Since when did Sony reveal their launch date? It's just bizarre to see people spouting nonsense based on self made assumptions and failing them would apparently lead to the death of the console. Calling it retarded would be an understatement.
Anyway, Jeff_Rigby, for a lay person such as myself, what does the new piece of information mean in context to potential development of PS4 (technical innards)?
Anyway, Jeff_Rigby, for a lay person such as myself, what does the new piece of information mean in context to potential development of PS4 (technical innards)?
Kazuma Kiryu
Member
they're not standing head to head with ms now? sony launched a year late yet has pretty much the same install base? i'd argue that worldwide xbox still isn't as big as nintendo or playstation. unless you're only talking about the us market, which i can see the point of releasing before or at the same time with ms's next console.
statham
Member
really now, the ps3 could launch with no games and sell 5 million, ps3 will overcome the 360 year headstart within 6 months, xbox 1.5. revisit old threads, the 599 put a small damper on people, but most people believed the ps3 was going to stream roll the 360. and with the Wii, even with the sellouts and not finding the system for sell, everyone believed it was going to be short-lasted and would fade within a year.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Really the Posts from page 20 on are just confirming the SimiAccurate post is possible. Everything fits but it's still speculation with only a vague idea of the final performance.
Best guess; Sony is going to use a 2014 AMD APU model with FULL HSA. The rest is in the SimiAccurate post and the cited Interview with the Sony CTO. There was speculation that the SimiAccurate post was using the information from the Sony CTO interview but it has more information than provided in the interview.
Best articles:
http://mandetech.com/2012/01/10/sony-masaaki-tsuruta-interview/
http://semiaccurate.com/2012/03/02/sony-playstation-4-will-be-an-x86-cpu-with-an-amd-gpu/
http://www.gsaglobal.org/events/2012/0416/docs/3D_Panel.pdf
AMD supplied PDF showing features in APU chipset with MANY future game console related must have features
Giant Panda
Member
Delaying a year just to get a better APU isn't going to get Sony more sales or money. You have to have something special if you come out late, that's why Wii did fine. A little extra hardware power is not special.
I don't believe that Sony would do that.
I don't believe that Sony would do that.
bgassassin
Member
I guess my take on it is different. I'm kind of confused where the multiple CPUs come from. My take would be an SoC that has the CPU and GPGPU. The DSPs could either be in the SoC as well or external. Then there would be a MC specifically designed for the UMA which said UMA would be external to the SoC.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
For most people outside of uber tech nerds, COD games are the definition of orgasmatory realistic visuals. I still remember reading report upon report back when CoD4 was being first demoed how it was the most realistic looking war game ever made.
It will be the same/similar to how it is with PPUs and SPUs and more integrated the GPGPU side is to the actual CPU the better. (IE possible to write same cache or scratch pad.)
It certainly would be great if you can read/write to same buffer with the main GPU as well.
That's not enough, but yeah they can't go without that either. They need a full suite of great casual friendly games.
jeff_rigby
Banned
See above http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37515892&postcount=1457
SimiAccurate quote: Lots of stacked memory with TSVs, GSA Memory Conference PDF: 2.5D and 3D stacked chips for game consoles in 2013-2014 with the former using stacked memory on transposer and the latter using ultra wide stacked memory, Sony CTO: 8Kx4K video for games and multiple CPUs including DSP and programmable logic array (FPGA).
Best guess is that there will be no GDDR5 or GDR3 it will all be stacked memory in two pools with ultrawide in the AMD SOC. This only if the guess as to a 2014 design is accurate and if so, trying to use some analog of current PC tech designs won't work. Could you post the GSA Memory PDF on BY3D here. They are also making the same assumptions there.
8Kx4K requires high performance that will not be possible in a console power budget without HSA efficiencies including stacked memory and ultrawide buss 3D stacked memory in the SOC. Multiple CPUs and the full HSA model require the 2014 AMD design.
Stacked memory should be cheaper or eventually cheaper than Gddr5 or XDR2. Future performance memory will be stacked not XDR or GDDR. Game consoles are performance platforms. Arguments against this in the thread were it won't be available by 2013-2014 but the GSA memory conference PDF mentions 3D stacked and ultrawide buss 3D stacked memory used in Game console chips in 2013-2014.
Arguments against more than 4 gigs of memory in new consoles were about packaging which is also an older design problem that won't be seen with stacked memory. Economics is the consideration. Size and heat in the SOC will limit memory and type of memory there. There must be a second pool outside the SOC.
From what I have read on Gaf and other articles, dev kits are as close as you can get with current PC hardware prior to the release of full fledged devkits. Any delays in the release of hardware shouldn't affect developers negatively, unless the console maker doesn't give enough time for testing prior to releasing the new console.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I'd guess they would be slower than the final chipsets (at least for the APU), AMD compiler libraries already support SAIL and HSA features. Only Unreal Engine 4 (CPU bound) which required a NDA would fully use/require the performance in a 2014 design AMD APU. Most launch games will be GPU bound using less CPU.
AMD developer lectures were talking about bundled ray tracing for lighting which would use lots of APU.
Most of the features coming via the AMD APU and GPU are already on upper end AMD chipset PCs but are very power hungry and expensive chips and for both reasons won't be in a game console. 2014 designs can give nearly the same performance cheaper and with less power required; how nearly is the question no one but a developer can answer at this time.
I'd guess that PS4 SDKs released by Sony that support OS features like voice, facial and gesture recognition would use developer hardware but in the final chipset might use a FPGA for some features and as far as developers are concerned the routines would just be faster and more accurate, the SDK which defines how to use the routines remains the same.
tinfoilhatman
all of my posts are my avatar
I'm talking specifically about here in the states where hardware sales and software tie in's, the Xbox may be able to survive with support from Japan but the PS4 will not be healthy without significant support here in the states.
Funny how quickly people choose to forget these things
H_Prestige
Banned
Saying COD has shitty graphics is pretty stupid. It's not among the best, but it's still way beyond anything on last gen consoles. Same can't be said of a certain other console's games.
The point being made was that many of the top selling games of this generation did not rely on graphics. That goes across all consoles, not just the Wii. Even on Wii, the crappy-artstyle NSMB way outsold a decent looker in SMG. What the mass market obviously wants is not power, but compelling software. Sony sounds like they know this now, despite their goof up with the Vita. You and I and most others here know that compelling mass-market-friendly software is the primary driver of hardware - not the other way around.
H_Prestige
Banned
You're simplifying this way too much. COD4 would not have gotten anyone's attention in the first place if it looked like a ps2 game. There's a lot of factors involved here and different games appeal to different gamers for different kinds of reasons. A lot more of the COD fan base praises the games' graphics than the NSMB base.
Sony hasn't changed their software strategy at all. They've always pushed graphics since day one, have been doing it like crazy on the ps3, are doing it on the Vita, and I don't know what you've seen to make you think it will be any different on ps4. Just because most of the Wii user base doesn't need to be wowed by graphics doesn't mean it's true for the PS or Xbox crowd. Does it mean you can sell a game purely on graphics? No. But it's always been a big factor, and just because a few Wii games with no graphics emphasis sold over 20 million doesn't mean pushing graphics is pointless. I can guarantee you that visuals impact the sales of the uncharteds, the gran turismos, the halos, the zeldas, and the mario galaxys.