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[jeff_rigby]

if its a 'normal' AMD APU the GPU isn't that amazing, but I could see Sony going with something like that and using the embedded GPU for ancillary tasks. eg physics acceleration, encoding video for remote play to vita, post processing etc. Then have a separate GPU for the main grunt work.

While a GPGPU can do physics calculations, the setup time is higher than for a FPU or a PPU+SPU combination. For parallel array work like Voice and gesture recognition where on-going (GPU compute units already setup) comparisons on streams (thus the name stream processor) of audio or video a GPU with hundreds of processors is best.

Otherwise for a proper next gen console you'd need a completely custom solution - there isn't anything on the normal AMD APU roadmap with the kind of power we're talking about here is there? and if AMD could squeeze a quad core CPU alongside a 7970m level GPU on one chip, why wouldn't they have done that for the PC market?

They have a roadmap and some of the roadmap requires 28nm and 20nm which is just coming on-line at Fabs. AMD has been planning this for 5 years as has IBM. They had to wait for the technology to make it practical, some for Sony. Second GPU may move to the APU @20nm in 2 years.

Another point, I expect Sony and IBM have been talking and planning the PS4 since before the PS3 was released. AMD should have joined the conversation just after 2008 when IBM turned to AMD for GPUs and they formed the Consortium (IBM, AMD/Global Foundries and others). IBM in 2010 dropped support for Cell but Sony patented a 1PPS4SPU HSA module Dec 2010 that had crossbar-coherent cache and more that are very similar to AMDs HSA plugin building block design.... coincidence? Dec 2011 patent and the 1PPU+4SPU element is interchangeable with the term APU which is talked about in 2009 for AMD FUSION APUs.

This can be Sony totally ignorant of AMD plans and the benefits of using GPUs for stream processing (Voice and gesture recognition 2008 Toshiba and Sony talking about it for TVs and more using Cell) which IBM was researching and publishing whitepapers using Nvidia GPUs and Cuda in 2008 or more likely Sony developing 1PPU4SPU modules for use in other CE equipment and the PS4. It could be either.....

If Sony wasn't (as some believe) forced to change plans to use AMD because the 1PPU4SPU wafer patented in Dec 2010 was not ready Dec 2011 and Sony switched to AMD because they had a solution READY (latest Sony comment says they are not worried about being later if that makes the PS4 better) then the 1PPU4SPU does still have a use. Any other logic has to assume Sony is stupid and suddenly decided to switch from Cell to AMD APU (X86+GPU).

The PS3 could be redesigned with 1 or 2 (1PPU4SPU) modules in a SOC with stacked memory to be released at the end of this year. OS would have to be redone but that same OS could be used in the PS4 if it had 1 or 2 (1PPU4SPU) modules to provide backward compatibility. Toshiba is using what is essentially 1 CPU plus 4 SPUs to provide head tracking, Gesture recognition and video codec support in their 4K TVs (No dual use for GPU so SPUs are more practical in a TV).

This is all wild speculation with little to support it. Current developer hardware has FPUs, next (3rd) generation developer platforms may have Jaguar + Cell as FPU. Developers will use the same calls and may not know the Cell is in the SOC. Backward compatibility would not need to be known by developers and added functionality using Cell may wait till after PS4s release. IF a slimmer slim is announced at TGS 9/20/2012 then my wild speculation has more weight. Sept is when Khronos has targeted AR and is the next Gnome 6 month cycle which is the same as the GTKwebkit and Gstreamer cycle.

 

[TronLight]

Wait a moment... Are they going to use a notebook CPU? Is that a good idea?

 

[Gaming4Lyfe]

please don't be 599 :|

IT wont be, It will be 899 lol

 

[Gaming4Lyfe]

Well, I've been waiting on these new consoles to hit for over a year now. If these specs are anywhere close to true... then I'm just going to keep gaming on my pad and phone while using my PC for more graphic heavy games. Developers are bringing more and more games to the PC and with consoles having DirectX11 maybe console ports on the PC won't be so terrible. I'm not very knowledgeable on the technical aspects of everything, but I know enough to understand that the specs that are floating around as rumors right now put the PS4 and the new Xbox as a weaker platform than my laptop.

If history is anything to judge by, the next generation of gaming systems will be more powerful than any gaming laptop that's currently on the market.

Game consoles are actually the most powerful system for running games during release years. About a year or 2 later, PC gaming systems catch up and surpass them.

 

[JonathanPower]

Wait a moment... Are they going to use a notebook CPU? Is that a good idea?

Even so, they would still need to have a very customized design, otherwise it would be a waste of silicon. An AMD X86 CPU contains a lot of stuff that is completely useless in a console, since a console is not meant to run general purpose applications.

 

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

Game consoles are actually the most powerful system for running games during release years. About a year or 2 later, PC gaming systems catch up and surpass them.

That wont be the case this time round...a top end PC of Q4 2013 will be way beyond a PS4 or 720...assuming the rumoured specs are at least semi accurate.

 

[Represent.]

Jesus christ. All hat info jeff_rigby posted ... I dont understand any of it. :|

In DBZ terms, how powerful are those rumored PS4 specs? If Wii U = Kid Gohan, PS4 = ...?

lol

 

[DieH@rd]

That wont be the case this time round...a top end PC of Q4 2013 will be way beyond a PS4 or 720...assuming the rumoured specs are at least semi accurate.

Already today you can get your hands on this beast.
http://pcper.com/news/Graphics-Cards/Computex-ASUS-Mars-III-Dual-GTX-680-Card-Comes-8GB-RAM

Mars IV will be even more insane in a year.

 

[TronLight]

Even so, they would still need to have a very customized design, otherwise it would be a waste of silicon. An AMD X86 CPU contains a lot of stuff that is completely useless in a console, since a console is not meant to run general purpose applications.

But beside that, I hope that with a "simple" CPU for PC the console won't "age faster".

 

[nelsonroyale]

That wont be the case this time round...a top end PC of Q4 2013 will be way beyond a PS4 or 720...assuming the rumoured specs are at least semi accurate.

I think some of the highest spec set ups are ridiculous...yes they are very powerful but they require massive wattage considering...personally, I think it is wasteful consumption

 

[TronLight]

But the Tahiti GPU will be a portable version too?
IE a 7970M?

 

[sTeLioSco]

Already today you can get your hands on this beast.
http://pcper.com/news/Graphics-Cards/Computex-ASUS-Mars-III-Dual-GTX-680-Card-Comes-8GB-RAM

Mars IV will be even more insane in a year.

are you serious?

who is gonna make multimillion dollar games with amazing gfx for a couple hundred gfx cards??

pc dudes should beg that the next consoles are as high powered as possible,or else you will max all the games that are graphically the same forever with a 560.

 

[JonathanPower]

But beside that, I hope that with a "simple" CPU for PC the console won't "age faster".

If it is customized in order to be future proof it won't.

 

[Cake Boss]

Yeah I don't get the appeal of buying that 600$ card now when no game comes close to even utilizing its full potential.

 

[thuway]

Yeah I don't get the appeal of buying that 600$ card now when no game comes close to even utilizing its full potential.

truth.

 

[DieH@rd]

Im waiting for 2014 for upgrade of my 2011 midrange PC. It can play EVERYTHING in 1080p.

 

[iamshadowlark]

Yeah I don't get the appeal of buying that 600$ card now when no game comes close to even utilizing its full potential.

Yeah you just summed up why I've avoided PC gaming for so long. I don't give a fuck about insane amounts of pixels with overkill AA and AF. Give me actual graphical advances.

Definitely gonna build a rig soon though.

 

[Cake Boss]

Yeah I am still looking into building a PC this fall though.

 

[sTeLioSco]

Yeah I am still looking into building a PC this fall though.

my next pc-built is when the ps4 and nextxbox launch.after the first pc benchmarks of multiplaform nextgen titles.....

then for the 5 next years you will probably be ok unless you want to play at crazy resolutions with 3 screens.

 

[JABEE]

How would the Orbis compare to the Durango as of right now?

 

[NemesisPrime]

How would the Orbis compare to the Durango as of right now?

Don't go there.

 

[joshwaan]

I like this thread very interesting reading about what is going to be in the PS4

I have a question for jeff or anyone that may be able to answer it. Say the PS4 get's BC through a mini cell or what not, could it upscale and add extra's like AA to games like Last of US and GOW 3?

I mean the games look killer as they are, but could they get extra eye candy once the game is emulated via the Mini Cell or AMD CPU they use?

Like if the CPU or Cell bit is fully emulating the PS3 what some of extras could the GPU provide apart from upscale and AA?

I'm understand a little bit about hardware but not to the extent of some of you guys and girls

 

[Brad Grenz]

I'd actually consider those kinds of enhancements basically impossible, simply because the Cell processor was so heavily involved in producing the graphics in PS3 games. Devs are doing too much post processing with Cell for MLAA, motion blur and other effects that assume a certain frame-buffer that you couldn't arbitrarily raise the resolution without breaking the game.

 

[joshwaan]

I'd actually consider those kinds of enhancements basically impossible, simply because the Cell processor was so heavily involved in producing the graphics in PS3 games. Devs are doing too much post processing with Cell for MLAA, motion blur and other effects that assume a certain frame-buffer that you couldn't arbitrarily raise the resolution without breaking the game.

Thanks for your response I guess I can just hope we get at least BC on the PS4 so I can play Last of US and Demon Souls

 

[jeff_rigby]

I like this thread very interesting reading about what is going to be in the PS4

I have a question for jeff or anyone that may be able to answer it. Say the PS4 get's BC through a mini cell or what not, could it upscale and add extra's like AA to games like Last of US and GOW 3?

I mean the games look killer as they are, but could they get extra eye candy once the game is emulated via the Mini Cell or AMD CPU they use?

Like if the CPU or Cell bit is fully emulating the PS3 what some of extras could the GPU provide apart from upscale and AA?

I'm understand a little bit about hardware but not to the extent of some of you guys and girls

Mini-cell in PS4 would probably not be used for anything but Sony OS enhancements. The reason is to keep AMD and developers happy with a common (between PC, PS4 and possibly Durango) AMD library of HSA calls. This is also a reason we might not see Mini-Cell in a PS4 unless it makes sense in some way to include it (math, flexible codec, use in Medical imaging) to give the Sony chipset an advantage over what could be provided by an off the shelf AMD APU in a PC.

BC and upscaling the picture on a PS4, don't know but I doubt it.

 

[joshwaan]

Mini-cell in PS4 would probably not be used for anything but Sony OS enhancements. The reason is to keep AMD and developers happy with a common (between PC, PS4 and possibly Durango) AMD library of HSA calls. This is also a reason we might not see Mini-Cell in a PS4 unless it makes sense in some way to include it (math, flexible codec, use in Medical imaging) to give the Sony chipset an advantage over what could be provided by an off the shelf AMD APU in a PC.

BC and upscaling the picture on a PS4, don't know but I doubt it.

Thanks for replying mate, could PS4 run PS2 games run 1080P and AA +AF do you think it be powerful enough to do such a thing?

Edit: Jeff do you think the rumor of the 16 Core CPU for the next xbox or do you think it be 4 Core setup with 12 Threads?

If 16 Core CPU is what Microsoft is aiming at, is it limted to 2.5GHZ on each core like someone has posted on this forum or can they go higher?'

Would a CPU like that have massive L3 cache providing 1MB on each Core?

 

[i-Lo]

Already today you can get your hands on this beast.
http://pcper.com/news/Graphics-Cards/Computex-ASUS-Mars-III-Dual-GTX-680-Card-Comes-8GB-RAM

Mars IV will be even more insane in a year.

I think the true significance of this card is RAM. 8GB of ram on a board that is a around 1/3rd-1/4th size of PS3/360's motherboard.

So here's the question. If Asus can fit 32 256MB GDDR5 chips on a board that size without the intention of sacrificing reliability, why are some people here saying that motherboard design for PS4 will become enormously complicated if Sony moves up 2GB GDDR5?

 

[disap.ed]

I think the true significance of this card is RAM. 8GB of ram on a board that is a around 1/3rd-1/4th size of PS3/360's motherboard.

So here's the question. If Asus can fit 32 256MB GDDR5 chips on a board that size without the intention of sacrificing reliability, why are some people here saying that motherboard design for PS4 will become enormously complicated if Sony moves up 2GB GDDR5?

This isn't a matter of what is possible but how many will be able or even willing to buy it @1000$.

 

[DieH@rd]

I think the true significance of this card is RAM. 8GB of ram on a board that is a around 1/3rd-1/4th size of PS3/360's motherboard.

So here's the question. If Asus can fit 32 256MB GDDR5 chips on a board that size without the intention of sacrificing reliability, why are some people here saying that motherboard design for PS4 will become enormously complicated if Sony moves up 2GB GDDR5?

Answer: As with previous Mars cards, Asus will make only 100-200 of these new ones and will price them for >1000$.

My belif is that Sony will go with 4gb.

 

[AuthenticM]

The PS3 could be redesigned with 1 or 2 (1PPU4SPU) modules in a SOC with stacked memory to be released at the end of this year. OS would have to be redone but that same OS could be used in the PS4 if it had 1 or 2 (1PPU4SPU) modules to provide backward compatibility. Toshiba is using what is essentially 1 CPU plus 4 SPUs to provide head tracking, Gesture recognition and video codec support in their 4K TVs (No dual use for GPU so SPUs are more practical in a TV).

This is all wild speculation with little to support it. Current developer hardware has FPUs, next (3rd) generation developer platforms may have Jaguar + Cell as FPU. Developers will use the same calls and may not know the Cell is in the SOC. Backward compatibility would not need to be known by developers and added functionality using Cell may wait till after PS4s release. IF a slimmer slim is announced at TGS 9/20/2012 then my wild speculation has more weight. Sept is when Khronos has targeted AR and is the next Gnome 6 month cycle which is the same as the GTKwebkit and Gstreamer cycle.

That's crazy. Why would Sony even think of releasing a redesigned PS3 with a different hardware configuration? That would assuredly fragment the userbase. Unless the only thing Sony does with the additional SOC is unveil its new OS. They would have to tell developers to avoid using it to program games. But even this seem to be a completely irrelevant thing to do, seeing how far we are in the generation.

 

[i-Lo]

Answer: As with previous Mars cards, Asus will make only 100-200 of these new ones and will price them for >1000$.

My belif is that Sony will go with 4gb.

While they may sell them at over $1000 I'd say they'll still be making significant profits on each card sold. On a console, the base parts can be had for a lot cheaper. Also, this RAM will be shared between the CPU and GPU. As such I don't believe that pushing the RAM from 2GB to 4GB will end up doubling PS4's price tag.

Also, I am in agreement with thy belief.

 

[DieH@rd]

While they may sell them at over $1000 I'd say they'll still be making significant profits on each card sold. On a console, the base parts can be had for a lot cheaper. Also, this RAM will be shared between the CPU and GPU. As such I don't believe that pushing the RAM from 2GB to 4GB will end up doubling PS4's price tag.

Also, I am in agreement with thy belief.

2 more GB of ram will not DOUBLE the price of the console. Adding additional 256mb to the X360 costed MS a "billion", but that was only in the long run [add average of $20 for 50 million consoles = $1 billion].

More than a year ago these were the prices of gddr5:
http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/1461/q2msa.gif
5.0Gb/s 1GB GDDR5 (8 chips) -> $21.57.
5.0Gb/s 2GB GDDR5 (8 chips) -> $43.13.
6.0Gb/s 2GB GDDR5 (8 chips) -> $56.77
Also, 1GB of gddr5 spends >15W of power.

 

[jeff_rigby]

That's crazy. Why would Sony even think of releasing a redesigned PS3 with a different hardware configuration? That would assuredly fragment the userbase. Unless the only thing Sony does with the additional SOC is unveil its new OS. They would have to tell developers to avoid using it to program games. But even this seem to be a completely irrelevant thing to do, seeing how far we are in the generation.

There is a complicated logic behind it.

1) Sony may be creating a 1PPU4SPU wafer building block to be used in multiple platforms (Sony Dec 2010 patent) like AMD is doing to create SOCs using Process optimized building blocks. This is third generation 3D stacking using TSVs to reduce the cost of SOCs (IBM, AMD, Samsung and more).

4 1PPU4SPU building blocks to create a PS4 (changed sometime in 2011 to AMD HSA (X86+GPU))
2 1PPU4SPU building blocks to create a PS3
1 1PPU4SPU building blocks in 4K TVs (this is what Tohsiba is doing using SPUs)

It's economics where using building blocks produced in massive quantities and pretested would cost less to use than shrinking a Cell for the PS3 that only has one use. Further, using other AMD or IBM building blocks rather than older obsolete PS3 parts might be cheaper also. Use 1 gig of stacked memory inside the SOC instead of XDR. Problem is that the hardware would be different and require emulation. Plus is this same emulation could be used (with minor changes) on a PS4 if it had 2 1PPU4SPU mini-cells in it being used for other purposes.

All this may have been dropped when Sony decided to go with a AMD Fusion SOC (X86 +GPU) rather than 4 (PPC+4SPUs).

Without some type of refresh I can't see the PS3 getting much cheaper. We are seeing a flattening of sales for the PS3 and Xbox360 so something has to happen to reduce the cost of each. A SOC made to emulate a PS3 could emulate a Xbox360 and have power to spare for Kinect. A PS3 with an extra PPU and SPU with more memory (some CPU and extra memory is needed for emulation) would be a PS3.5 (kinect interface built in).

 

[AuthenticM]

There is a complicated logic behind it.

1) Sony may be creating a 1PPU4SPU wafer building block to be used in multiple platforms (Sony Dec 2010 patent) like AMD is doing to create SOCs using Process optimized building blocks. This is third generation 3D stacking using TSVs to reduce the cost of SOCs (IBM, AMD, Samsung and more).

4 1PPU4SPU building blocks to create a PS4 (changed sometime in 2011 to AMD HSA (X86+GPU))
2 1PPU4SPU building blocks to create a PS3
1 1PPU4SPU building blocks in 4K TVs (this is what Tohsiba is doing using SPUs)

It's economics where using building blocks produced in massive quantities and pretested would cost less to use than shrinking a Cell for the PS3 that only has one use. Further, using other AMD or IBM building blocks rather than older obsolete PS3 parts might be cheaper also. Use 1 gig of stacked memory inside the SOC instead of XDR. Problem is that the hardware would be different and require emulation. Plus is this same emulation could be used (with minor changes) on a PS4 if it had 2 1PPU4SPU mini-cells in it being used for other purposes.

All this may have been dropped when Sony decided to go with a AMD Fusion SOC (X86 +GPU) rather than 4 (PPC+4SPUs).

Without some type of refresh I can't see the PS3 getting much cheaper. We are seeing a flattening of sales for the PS3 and Xbox360 so something has to happen to reduce the cost of each. A SOC made to emulate a PS3 could emulate a Xbox360 and have power to spare for Kinect. A PS3 with an extra PPU and SPU with more memory (some CPU and extra memory is needed for emulation) would be a PS3.5 (kinect interface built in).

I understand Sony wanting to reduce the cost of the PS3 to keep it alive for as long as possible. But even though the new AMD Fusion SOC could emulate the current PS3 hardware configuration, I'm having a hard time believing that it could do so to the extent of making the entire PS3 library (retail discs + PSN downloadables) compatible. Emulation has its limits, no? If they were able to pull it off, then that's pretty exciting I guess. Wouldn't it give the PS3 (via its new OS) the ability to do more stuff?

 

[jeff_rigby]

I understand Sony wanting to reduce the cost of the PS3 to keep it alive for as long as possible. But even though the new AMD Fusion SOC could emulate the current PS3 hardware configuration, I'm having a hard time believing that it could do so to the extent of making the entire PS3 library (retail discs + PSN downloadables) compatible. Emulation has its limits, no? If they were able to pull it off, then that's pretty exciting I guess. Wouldn't it give the PS3 (via its new OS) the ability to do more stuff?

The AMD Fusion SOC can not real time emulate a PS3 without several SPUs. You are correct that it would be difficult to emulate a PS3 100%. You would have to have a virtual engine intercepting every PS3 program call and interpreting it passing routines to appropriate hardware...very complicated full of possible pitfalls and crashes. Doable? With a starting point the PS3 Cell simulation created by Barcelona Super Computer for IBM to run on a PC...maybe. Same BSC created the Xbox360 PPC simulation for IBM?

 

[AuthenticM]

The idea of a new PS3 redesign excites me a lot. I still have my 60GB launch SKU (refurbished) which makes a fuckton of noise whenever I'm playing. I would be very interested in switching it for something better. However, should Sony announce a slimmer slim at TGS in a way that you are suggesting (without full compatibility), they would have to make some points crystal clear lest people not buy this thing at all.

They'd have to specify exactly which games aren't compatible by releasing a list that PS3 owners or potential buyers can check, so as to make sure no games they are interested in could not be played on the new machine. This would be a must-do. If Sony gets on stage at TGS and proclaim: "We are releasing a new, slimmer PS3 that cannot play certain games", nobody will drop a cent on this thing.

Moreover, enticing people by saying the new PS3 can do stuff older PS3 can't would be a big selling point. I want wireless-N. I want the PS3 to take full advantage of SSDs. I want a new OS; something radically different than the XMB and nothing similar to the Vita's interface. I want some sort of backwards-compatibility with PS2 and PS1 games. I mean, shit, if the thing can emulate a PS3, it bloody CAN emulate a PS2. Although not essential in any means, two USB 3.0 ports would be nice.

All of those things are nice, but at the end of the day, they are releasing a slimmer PS3 to cut on costs. I'd understand if all of those things weren't in the new slim. However, if they announce a slimmer slim six goddamn years after the launch of the console, and the thing still does NOT have wireless-N, they can go fuck themselves.

 

[joshwaan]

2 more GB of ram will not DOUBLE the price of the console. Adding additional 256mb to the X360 costed MS a "billion", but that was only in the long run [add average of $20 for 50 million consoles = $1 billion].

More than a year ago these were the prices of gddr5:
http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/1461/q2msa.gif
5.0Gb/s 1GB GDDR5 (8 chips) -> $21.57.
5.0Gb/s 2GB GDDR5 (8 chips) -> $43.13.
6.0Gb/s 2GB GDDR5 (8 chips) -> $56.77
Also, 1gb of gddr5 spends >15W of power.

So about 80 dollars for them to go with 4GB roughly now, I think they should, I really like Sony to stay in the game the PS3 is a great console. I don't want this unit to have a great CPU/GPU and ram be a little lackluster.

 

[Proelite]

The 1.8tf BgAssassin mentioned for Orbis might be double precision.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

The 1.8tf BgAssassin mentioned for Orbis might be double precision.

Why