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[StevieP]

Anyone thinking they'll have more than 4 is nuts...

Remember when people were nuts for thinking Sony would abandon the Cell?

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Anyone thinking they'll have more than 4 is nuts...

It's actually much more likely now than it was six months ago.

 

[i-Lo]

Continuation from my previous post. I wanted to share the design of the Radeon HD 6990. It has 16 GDDR5 chips laid out over its front and back after being divided equally.

Now (as aforementioned, I'm a certifiable n00b) the can't they carry over a similar design philosophy on board larger than this, given that they won't produce the same amount of heat a processing chip would?

The density size for GDDR3 hasn't increased either. It's the same as GDDR5.

GDDR5 has 512MB chip density?

 

[bgassassin]

This is why I put the qualifier "if I fuxored up" in there. I was initially thinking 1 gig GDDR5 and 5 gigs GDDR3. If they really are going for a split pool I'd expect more RAM chips to be used purely for higher total overall. Otherwise you'd just be better suited for a smaller unified pool. Most of the game world though (and here's the catch) would be designed to fit into that smaller faster pool. You could have things streaming in and out of the slower pool as a giant cache, but at some point it just becomes redundant.

If they want to go just for size, they could get a unified pool of 8 gigs GDDR3 under the same chip budget of the first 360.

Or they could go for something with insane speed like a unified pool of GDDR5. At 256MB a chip you're top end would be 2-3 gigs at the maximum. And that's with 8-12 RAM chips on the board.

The density size for GDDR3 hasn't increased either. It's the same as GDDR5.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

The density size for GDDR3 hasn't increased either. It's the same as GDDR5.

Then ignore that PM.

 

[StevieP]

The density size for GDDR3 hasn't increased either. It's the same as GDDR5.

Thankfully, as you already know DDR3 chip densities are higher than both

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Thankfully, as you already know DDR3 chip densities are higher than both

I still can't believe any manufacturer would just choose size as opposed to speed.

I mean just clocking it higher can get rid of some of the latency issues, but DDR3 is slow as dirt.

 

[bgassassin]

GDDR5 has 512MB chip density?

256MB.

Thankfully, as you already know DDR3 chip densities are higher than both

Stacked DDR3 will be even better.

 

[phosphor112]

Remember when people were nuts for thinking Sony would abandon the Cell?

Yeah, with patents from 2011 still showing Cell technology being used. Unlike you, I really don't have insider information but my assumption was valid.

Anyway 4 gigs is a lot. Especially with high bus speeds...
If you do know what's going on behind the scenes, stop beating around the bush. >=/

 

[StevieP]

I was throwing out a hypothetical of course to see what us tech-minded folks would think about that if it were to come to fruition (see tag - trollface.jpg). bg is just baiting jeff (lol)

Seriously, though, if a console manufacturer decided to use a larger pool of slower memory vs a smaller pool of faster memory - it would certainly satisfy forums like us here, wouldn't it?

Look at every next gen related thread in the past 2 years and you'll find quite a large percentage of posts reflecting that.

 

[Fafalada]

That slow of RAM coupled with slow disc read speeds equals some truly epic load times.

Let's just make something clear here - RAM speed has no bearing on load times (unless you're talking 1970s RAM speed).

But as a general rule - hw-maker TRC restrictions have far more effect on average loading-times then any underlying hw. PS2 generation was a good example of having no real differentiators on hw level, but people still perceive some console to be drastically better then another (and ironically, usually the one with slowest hardware).

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Let's just make something clear here - RAM speed has no bearing on load times (unless you're talking 1970s RAM speed).

But as a general rule - hw-maker TRC restrictions have far more effect on average loading-times then any underlying hw. PS2 generation was a good example of having no real differentiators on hw level, but people still perceive some console to be drastically better then another (and ironically, usually the one with slowest hardware).

Consider me purely and utterly owned.

 

[USC-fan]

You guys are crazy MS having 4 GB of DDR3 and 2GB of DDR5 would make the board so complex is not even funny.
If you going to add some many ram chips you could well as go for 3 to 4 GB of DDR5 and call it a day .

No it would be set up a lot like a PC. 4GB ddr3 on cpu bus, 2gb gddr5 with the gpu. Most PC are set up this way.

 

[iamvin22]

so whats GAF's perfect PS4 final spec sheet look like?

 

[StevieP]

so whats GAF's perfect PS4 final spec sheet look like?

Check the photograph a couple pages ago (lol)

 

[phosphor112]

I was throwing out a hypothetical of course to see what us tech-minded folks would think about that if it were to come to fruition (see tag - trollface.jpg). bg is just baiting jeff (lol)

Seriously, though, if a console manufacturer decided to use a larger pool of slower memory vs a smaller pool of faster memory - it would certainly satisfy forums like us here, wouldn't it?

Look at every next gen related thread in the past 2 years and you'll find quite a large percentage of posts reflecting that.

Lol... you're not nice. And of course they'd use less ram with faster speeds. That's why I was perplexed in your last post. 4 is a lot, honestly I think they are better off with 2gig with storage for cache... Sure, stick a hybrid HDD in a performance PC, and it becomes a bottleneck because the HDD ends up downspinning often to save energy. That's not a problem (and can be bypassed) in a console. Sure, it's not as fast as adding 2 extra gigs of ram, but overall it'll probably be very cost efficient.

 

[bgassassin]

I was throwing out a hypothetical of course to see what us tech-minded folks would think about that if it were to come to fruition (see tag - trollface.jpg). bg is just baiting jeff (lol)

Seriously, though, if a console manufacturer decided to use a larger pool of slower memory vs a smaller pool of faster memory - it would certainly satisfy forums like us here, wouldn't it?

Look at every next gen related thread in the past 2 years and you'll find quite a large percentage of posts reflecting that.

I honestly forgot jeff keeps talking about stacked memory. I'm on a roll tonight for unintended puns and baiting.

 

[i-Lo]

so whats GAF's perfect PS4 final spec sheet look like?

Check the photograph a couple pages ago (lol)

Fix'd

 

[phosphor112]

I honestly forgot jeff keeps talking about stacked memory. I'm on a roll tonight for unintended puns and baiting.

Do you guys think Sony will go 3D wafers or not?

 

[Mrbob]

I hope MS is planning on at least 2GB of GDDR5 alongside 4-8GB DDR3. 1GB isn't enough for 1080P gaming.

 

[onQ123]

so whats GAF's perfect PS4 final spec sheet look like?

12GB Ram 4GB VRam

SOC made up of a AMD APU with 8 Steamroller cores ,Radeon HD 8790 , FPGA & a 2PPU 8SPU Cell for full BC


Radeon HD 8990 GPU


1TB Blu-ray drive & 1TB SSD

ohh & a 4K 480FPS 3D PlayStation Eye

all for $299

 

[StevieP]

299? Too expensive for that! 199 or bust

 

[dragonelite]

I hope MS is planning on at least 2GB of GDDR5 alongside 4-8GB DDR3. 1GB isn't enough for 1080P gaming.

Im not sure material is new too me.
But i think i rather have shared 3~4 GB of GDDR5 you get fast bandwidth and access times.
Because it is shared, CPU and GPU can use the same Geometry data. From what i remember VertexBuffers almost have the same layout as SIMD instructions need to do their thing just a array of floats/ints or other datatypes.
So far im told for a console you want a lot of bandwidth and fast access times to keep both cpu and gpu busy all the time and not let them wait for 80% of the time to process new data. Especially the GPU who loves to eat away at big streams of data because of all those cores.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

12GB Ram 4GB VRam

SOC made up of a AMD APU with 8 Steamroller cores ,Radeon HD 8790 , FPGA & a 2PPU 8SPU Cell for full BC


Radeon HD 8990 GPU


1TB Blu-ray drive & 1TB SSD

ohh & a 4K 480FPS 3D PlayStation Eye

all for $299

That $299 would probably barely pay for half the of the Radeon 8790! :lol

News broadcast: Following the successful release of the PS4, Sony announces bankruptcy.

 

[bgassassin]

Do you guys think Sony will go 3D wafers or not?

I don't. But that's because I don't currently see how it fits with the target specs.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I honestly forgot jeff keeps talking about stacked memory. I'm on a roll tonight for unintended puns and baiting.

I'll give you some more bait.

From Micron Stockholders meeting:

Graphics and consumer. Fair to say, a little bit of a slowdown here, specifically in the DTV segment. I'll speak more about what's happening in game consoles as well. A pretty good push for more memory coming up in the Game Console segment as a level of redesigns. We'll start to hit it over the next couple of years.

And talking about consumer again here. I thought it'd be beneficial to show you across a couple of key applications how this looks in terms of megabyte per system. On the left, what we have are game consoles. This is a space that's been pretty flat for a number of years in terms of the average shipped density per system. That's going to be changing here pretty quickly. I think everyone realizes that these systems are somewhat clumpy in their development. The next generation of system is under development now and that because of 3D and some of the bandwidth requirements, drives the megabyte per console up fairly quickly. So we're anticipating some good growth here.

We've worked with a number of these vendors specifically on both custom and semi-custom solutions in that space.

So insisting on using current Memory standard packaging is likely to be misleading. Memory packaging is taking advantage of TSVs to increase the memory density. Custom packages are now easily possible.

The Hybrid memory cube (Micron makes the memory and IBM makes the logic wafer on the bottom) has a serial buss and would not work in a SOC. The wafers that make up the HMC could be attached 2.5D to a SOC side by side and would work. We know that they will be available in 2013.

From Hynix a Memory supplier for AMD:

• GDDR5 Single-ended I/O
- Max. 8Gbps with same power

• GDDR5 Differential I/O
- Max. 14Gbps with much more power

• HBM*(Wide I/O with TSV) High Bandwidth Memory HBM migrating to mainstream 2-3 years after High-end segmentation
- Lower speed with many I/Os and low power => Handheld low power DRAM
 Upgradable DRAM Speed ==> using higher power faster DRAM at higher clock speed, not for handheld
 Increasable # of I/O
 Flexible # of stack
Graphics Card, HPC, Workstation

High bandwidth memory is 3D stacked wide and ultra wide created with TSVs and can be stacked vertically outside a SOC on a graphics card or even a PS4 motherboard or 2.5D stacked side by side on a transposer SOC substrate.

Now we know what types of memory are available and that custom packaging is available we have to guess at what might be used.

Sony is going to push high resolution Infinite View and 4K TVs as well as higher than 4K medical imaging so they will want a very fast memory interface to the SOC. The choices would be Differential GDDR5, GDDR5 (with wider buss) or a couple of 1 gig ultra wide I/O 3D memory wafers 2.5D attached side by side in the SOC with a GDDR5 buss to the second GPU.

All the above memory will be expensive so a limit of 2 gigs. At this point, the second GPU memory buss sorta makes stacked memory inside the SOC less of a savings.

Thinking outside the box, what about a 1 chip 2Gig memory package outside the SOC to reduce motherboard traces and assembly costs. Such a package would reduce the need for a differential buss (instead of 6 or more memory I/O on the the Memory buss the SOC and PGU see only 2 they have to drive).

 

[iceatcs]

Quite surprise that all of these rumours tell us that MS will go for more exotic hardware whereas Sony will go different way.
Look like MS willing take more loss per system, It would be funny if they will lose all 360 profit just like PS3.

 

[Proelite]

MS joined the Hybrid Memory Cube consortium. IBM has already started making prototypes at their fabs as of last year.

http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/36125.wss

There is a chance we'll see 4-8 GB HMC in Durango / PS4.

Game changer.

 

[i-Lo]

MS joined the Hybrid Memory Cube consortium. IBM has already started making prototypes at their fabs as of last year.

http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/36125.wss

There is a chance we'll see 4-8 GB HMC in Durango / PS4.

Game changer.

Is Sony already a part of this consortium?

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Is Sony already a part of this consortium?

Hybrid Memory Cube Consortium (sounds like the name of a comic book universe alliance)

Not listed on the website, though Sony could benefit by the end product without being one, anyway.

 

[tinfoilhatman]

Quite surprise that all of these rumours tell us that MS will go for more exotic hardware whereas Sony will go different way.
Look like MS willing take more loss per system, It would be funny if they will lose all 360 profit just like PS3.

Not really Microsoft has allot more money to take risks on that business model, if they were smart they'd produce an powerful system and go in for the kill(at least in Americas) with Sony.

 

[i-Lo]

Hybrid Memory Cube Consortium (sounds like the name of a comic book universe alliance)

Not listed on the website, though Sony could benefit by the end product without being one, anyway.

Rumours state that Sony are trying to bring out PS3 late next year and that XB3 may be out sometime Q1 2014. Given that MS is a partner, aren't they, as one of the partners, in position to acquire the fruits of this venture first? If so then Sony can't really benefit from it if the memory is the reason XB3 has been delayed to launch after PS4.

 

[thehypocrite]

Not really Microsoft has allot more money to take risks on that business model, if they were smart they'd produce an powerful system and go in for the kill(at least in Americas) with Sony.

Sure, MSFT is a company known for taking risks.

 

[Proelite]

Sure, MSFT is a company known for taking risks.

Xbox.

 

[onQ123]

Rumours state that Sony are trying to bring out PS3 late next year and that XB3 may be out sometime Q1 2014. Given that MS is a partner, aren't they, as one of the partners, in position to acquire the fruits of this venture first? If so then Sony can't really benefit from it if the memory is the reason XB3 has been delayed to launch after PS4.

why so late?

 

[bigtroyjon]

Being part of the consortium probably has nothing to do with gaming, you guys do realize what their bread and butter is right?

If something is going to impact computers, Microsoft will always be involved.

 

[Proelite]

Being part of the consortium probably has nothing to do with gaming, you guys do realize what their bread and butter is right?

If something is going to impact computers, Microsoft will always be involved.

This is totally reasonable, but the quote from Micron Stockholder's meeting suggest that something more is involved. This is from August of 2011, and Microsoft joined the consortium a few weeks ago.

Graphics and consumer. Fair to say, a little bit of a slowdown here, specifically in the DTV segment. I'll speak more about what's happening in game consoles as well. A pretty good push for more memory coming up in the Game Console segment as a level of redesigns. We'll start to hit it over the next couple of years.

And talking about consumer again here. I thought it'd be beneficial to show you across a couple of key applications how this looks in terms of megabyte per system. On the left, what we have are game consoles. This is a space that's been pretty flat for a number of years in terms of the average shipped density per system. That's going to be changing here pretty quickly. I think everyone realizes that these systems are somewhat clumpy in their development. The next generation of system is under development now and that because of 3D and some of the bandwidth requirements, drives the megabyte per console up fairly quickly. So we're anticipating some good growth here.

We've worked with a number of these vendors specifically on both custom and semi-custom solutions in that space.

 

[i-Lo]

why so late?

Generally there is a space that is allotted between E3 (if PS3's and 360's examples are to be followed) and launch of the console to allow the confluence of marketing, hype, proper production numbers to ensure a successful launch. So if the PS4 is announced at E3 2013, the launch window will be somewhere in late Q4 2013 (if not early Q1 2014).

This is totally reasonable, but the quote from Micron Stockholder's meeting suggest that something more is involved.

I wonder where this puts PS4 because I remember reading a report (link cited by Rigby) where there was talk of stacking memory for PS4.

At the end of the day, I really wonder if 2GB would be sufficient (esp. if MS comes out with double that. The next gen like this will be mostly about third parties and it will be damaging to PS4 if the multiplats, much like this gen, are visually [and performance wise] superior).

 

[thehypocrite]

Xbox.

PC in a box. They really took a risk with that one. It would serve better for your argument if you mention Xbox 360 and Kinect.

 

[Proelite]

PC in a box. They really took a risk with that one. It would serve better for your argument if you mention Xbox 360 and Kinect.

Oh, you're talking about tech risk.

I would say pushing the tech envelope with 360 is the biggest risk, and it resulted in RROD.

 

[Proelite]

At the end of the day, I really wonder if 2GB would be sufficient (esp. if MS comes out with double that. The next gen like this will be mostly about third parties and it will be damaging to PS4 if the multiplats, much like this gen, are visually [and performance wise] superior).

It'll be easier to port PC games to PS4 and vice versa. There won't be anything like HMC and its bandwidth on the PC for quite a while.

 

[onQ123]

Generally there is a space that is allotted between E3 (if PS3's and 360's examples are to be followed) and launch of the console to allow the confluence of marketing, hype, proper production numbers to ensure a successful launch. So if the PS4 is announced at E3 2013, the launch window will be somewhere in late Q4 2013 (if not early Q1 2014).

I guess you still didn't notice your mistake lol

 

[phosphor112]

Oh, you're talking about tech risk.

I would say pushing the tech envelope with 360 is the biggest risk, and it resulted in RROD.

I think that's more of poor design... the GPU is practically under the fucking DVD drive. Who the hell does that!? How can you get proper cooling that way!?

Anyway, PS3 practically had the same problem. Just it had better cooling so it lasted longer. The lead free soldering makes these things a lot more fragile.

I guess you still didn't notice your mistake lol

PS3 is next-gen...

 

[i-Lo]

I guess you still didn't notice your mistake lol

-____- Wow! That took some time... OMGLOL!

Thanks.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I wonder where this puts PS4 because I remember reading a report (link cited by Rigby) where there was talk of stacking memory for PS4.

At the end of the day, I really wonder if 2GB would be sufficient (esp. if MS comes out with double that. The next gen like this will be mostly about third parties and it will be damaging to PS4 if the multiplats, much like this gen, are visually [and performance wise] superior).

Terms may be misleading. Stacking Memory on logic would be ultra wide I/O made with TSVs of maybe 100 megs that could be 2.5D attached to the SOC substrate not stacked on top of the CPU. That was mentioned in the Global Memory Summit in Tokyo, memory stacked on Logic for game console SOCs in 2013-2014. SemiAccurate Quote; "expect stacked memory and lots of it." That could be stacked memory outside the SOC.

I honestly don't know but I'm not going to rule it out. Custom and semi-custom packaging can be anything.

The Hybrid memory cube is NOT viable for a PS4 as the logic layer converts to a serial connection with a low bandwidth compared to a 256 bit buss. Using the wafers meant to go in a Hybrid memory cube is possible.

 

[Donnie]

Not really Microsoft has allot more money to take risks on that business model, if they were smart they'd produce an powerful system and go in for the kill(at least in Americas) with Sony.

Producing a super powerful consoles wouldn't kill anything but MS's XBox finances though. We've seen time and time again that being powerful doesn't equal success, in many cases it doesn't even help.

MS's XBox division are still billions of dollars in the hole, so while I'm expecting them to have the most powerful console I'm not expecting them to bring out something that would require the kind of losses they made per console with 360.

 

[jeff_rigby]

The Next Generation According to Game Developers

The next generation of consoles starts in 2013, if all goes according to developers’ plans. In an anonymous questionnaire, multiple industry professionals told IGN that they plan to release games for the next Microsoft and Sony consoles before January 1, 2014.

Multiple developers also intend to launch software for an unannounced platform next year

Apple producing a game console next Year?

To further signal the winding down of the current console generation, approximately 60% of respondents have no plans to release games for the Xbox 360, PlayStation 3, or Nintendo Wii after 2013. Of course, this means some 40% intend to keep at current-gen releases after next year. To that point, an anonymous developer told IGN, “I would not be surprised if something atypical cannibalizes the market, maybe even the Xbox 360 itself.”

From a hardware perspective, nearly 80% of respondents said Microsoft’s next console is the easiest to work with, and the overwhelming majority suspect it will be the sales leader over the next five years.

Nintendo Wii U probably hard to use because of the Split screen (LCD handheld controller).

PS4 harder to write for than Xbox8 when the PS4 is a X86 platform and Xbox8 is rumored to be a PPC + AMD GPU? Sony & AMD probably insisting on OpenCL and HSAIL as well as parallel routines (GPU as CPU) being used so another learning curve for developers with an abrupt transition to CPU bound (UE4) Game engine if you want to get the most out of the platform.

Another take would be multiple different CPUs in the PS4 which would require OpenCL as a common language and the other CPU(s) could be PPU + SPU(s) and/or FPGA. Also possible are developers reacting to less memory in the PS4 making it harder to write games.

Xbox8 is probably traditional GPU bound with Kinect & game using traditional CPU resources.

Trends of 2012: What the Analysts Say

"Gesture and voice control will become more commonplace, which in the future could help the industry overcome some of the challenges of interfacing with games apps using unresponsive and clumsy existing TV controllers." Pronounced Pachter: "This is the most impactful area for 2012, although it's not focused on gamers, per se. Rather, the focus is on converting other members of a gamer household to users of the home console, and Microsoft has a lot of things planned this year.

"Ultimately, the Xbox 360 and PS3 could be used as TV tuners (we'll see that this year), and will continue to beef up their content offering for over-the-top internet TV."

"Browser-based gaming will continue to grow," decided Divnich, "especially as developers unlock the potential of HTML5. But I don't believe HTML5 gaming really begins to capture mainstream attention until 2013/2014. There are still plenty of bugs to work out in the HTML5 technology."

Harped Harding-Rolls: "The mobile social network games opportunity in the West has yet to burst into life - 2012 looks a safe bet for this to happen. "

So Next generation Browser based games using WebCL (OpenCL incorporated into the javascript engine)

 

[Globox_82]

So nextbox wins again? More power and easier to write game for? bummer

 

[jeff_rigby]

So nextbox wins again? More power and easier to write game for? bummer

"AMD is betting the farm on HSA" in both the PC and Games console market and NEEDS Sony to educate Developers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not more power, at least I don't think so, a new way of programming must be learned to access what I think will be MORE power in the PS4. This is a continuation of the PS3 Heterogeneous CPU issues except this time the parallel code and scheduling will be 2nd generation and fully fleshed out.

Developers need to use the hardware properly and WOW us with the results or both Sony and AMD are dead. For this reason I think Sony is getting a really really good deal on full HSA hardware from AMD and specs on that hardware should be enough to WOW us. I would not be surprised if SPUs are also included in the PS4 as a few SPUs could be multipliers in physics, Video processing, voice and gesture recognition. GPGPUs can also perform these same functions but have a higher setup latency which makes a SPU better at small time critical functions; this also makes SPUs impossible to emulate with a GPGPU even though 300-400 GPU elements in a typical GPU are equivalent to 16 SPUs when processing large arrays of data.

 

[Brad Grenz]

So nextbox wins again? More power and easier to write game for? bummer

According to a smattering of American developers who know nothing about pricing, time frame, marketing or exclusive software lineups? Might want to wait until something actually happens before writing anything off. The PlayStation's global appeal should not be underestimated, especially if it launches first with a price advantage.