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theignoramus · May 11, 2012

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/witness/2012/05/20125915313256768.html

When the Arab-Israeli war raged in 1948, librarians from Israel’s National Library followed soldiers as they entered Palestinian homes in towns and villages. Their mission was to collect as many valuable books and manuscripts as possible. They are said to have gathered over 30,000 books from Jerusalem and another 30,000 from Haifa and Jaffa.
Officially it was a 'cultural rescue operation' but for Palestinians it was 'cultural theft'.
It was only in 2008 when an Israeli PhD student stumbled across documents in the national archive that the full extent of the 'collection' policy was revealed.

so not only does Israel continue to steal Palestinian homes and lands, it it wont give back any of the Palestinian cultural artifacts it robbed. why arent Americans informed of this every single time some drone rambles on about Israel's moral virtue.

RawPower · May 11, 2012

ruttyboy said:
As I live in the UK, nobody around here seems to care about 'Jewish affairs', it just isn't a talking point. As a consequence this thread has been very informative as well as eye-opening for me.

Firstly, all this talk about genetics entitling you to land is hilariously racist. We have a fascist political party here called the British National Party (BNP) and they have very similar views that are quite rightly dismissed as ludicrous.

I'm from the North of England and consequently there's quite a bit of Viking blood in me, as far as I know this was far more recent than the Jewish diaspora, and as presumably the more recent a displacement was the stronger the claim, look out Scandinavia, you owe me land!

Using genetics to determine societal advantages (right to land, rights in law, access to protection and support etc.) is inherently racist, I can't see how people could possibly defend it.

The only way I could see a glimmer of hope of justifying a violent colonisation is if it was the Palestinians who kicked out the people in the first place, but it wasn't. Get pissed at the Romans if you like, but fucking let it go.

I never said that genetic heritage meant that they could steal land. If you read my posts, you'd see that I only used it as justification for Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews calling themselves Middle Eastern rather than native European, and as a counter argument to those that suggested they carve out a place in Germany instead. It's like saying I'm Native American just because I live in America. Why is this so hard for people to grasp?

RawPower · May 11, 2012

Enosh said:
I'd like a source for this because everything I have read says the opposite

This too.

ruttyboy · May 11, 2012

RawPower said:
I never said that genetic heritage meant that they could steal land. If you read my posts, you'd see that I only used it as justification for Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews calling themselves Middle Eastern rather than native European, and as a counter argument to those that suggested they carve out a place in Germany instead. It's like saying I'm Native American just because I live in America. Why is this so hard for people to grasp?

Why is what they call themselves relevant? If you are just saying that they have the right to identify as they wish then fair enough, but that doesn't in any way translate to preferential treatment or rights over another person. Unless I missed something you were using their claim that they think of themselves as middle eastern as a justification as to why they should have rights over a land they hadn't inhabited for a thousand years (or more).

It's clearly implied by someone who supports the creation and continued existence of Israel (as you do unless I'm wrong about that?) that they are entitled to land due to their 'heritage'. This is a racist position. It differentiates between people because of their ancestry.

Edit: Also, it's nothing like saying you are Native American because you live in America, it's like saying you're American because you live in America, which you are. Live in Europe for hundreds of years? You're European.

RawPower · May 11, 2012

ruttyboy said:
Why is what they call themselves relevant? If you are just saying that they have the right to identify as they wish then fair enough, but that doesn't in any way translate to preferential treatment or rights over another person. Unless I missed something you were using their claim that they think of themselves as middle eastern as a justification as to why they should have rights over a land they hadn't inhabited for a thousand years (or more).

It's clearly implied by someone who supports the creation and continued existence of Israel (as you do unless I'm wrong about that?) that they are entitled to land due to their 'heritage'. This is a racist position. It differentiates between people because of their ancestry.

My sentiments were more of a reaction to some of the suggestions in this thread that since they inhabited Europe for the past few hundred years in almost complete isolation, that they have no Middle Eastern identity whatsoever and are "simply Europeans". There were even posts in here that said they should have partitioned a part of Germany instead, which is just nonsensical to me. Should Israel have been created in the first place? Probably not. It would have been more preferable for the Jews living in Europe to just move back into the Middle East without evicting people, living under Arab/Muslim protection like other Jewish groups had done for hundreds of years. However, Israel is there now, and kicking the Jews back out will not make anything better in the long run. Their policies towards the Arabs living there must change, though.

ruttyboy said:
Also, it's nothing like saying you are Native American because you live in America, it's like saying you're American because you live in America, which you are. Live in Europe for hundreds of years? You're European.

Not just European. But other than that, I agree. Many Jews following the conception of Zionism wanted to distance themselves from their neighboring European cultures as much as possible (and for damn good reason) and get in touch with their former identity. I perceived some of the comments in here as saying "No, you can't. You're European. Get over it." and that irked me quite a bit. Of course, none of this absolves Israel of its crimes against the Palestinian Arabs. I never even suggested that it should.

theignoramus · May 12, 2012

Haaretz said:
Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah said Friday that his militant group was capable of striking any target in neighboring Israel, saying "the days when we fled and they did not are over."

"Today we are not only able to hit Tel Aviv as a city but, God willing, we are able to hit specific targets in Tel Aviv and anywhere in occupied Palestine," Nasrallah said in a televised address.
"For every building destroyed in Dahiya, a building will be destroyed in Tel Aviv," he said, referring to Hezbollah's stronghold in a suburb of southern Beirut.

"The days when we were forced from our homes and they were not forced from theirs are over," Nasrallah said, to cheers from a crowd of supporters watching his speech.

"The days when we were afraid and they were not are over," he said. "And we say to them: The time has come when we will remain and you will be the ones who disappear."

the next war will be bloody.

el retorno · May 12, 2012

theignoramus said:
the next war will be bloody.

This helps

ruttyboy said:
As I live in the UK, nobody around here seems to care about 'Jewish affairs', it just isn't a talking point. As a consequence this thread has been very informative as well as eye-opening for me.

Firstly, all this talk about genetics entitling you to land is hilariously racist. We have a fascist political party here called the British National Party (BNP) and they have very similar views that are quite rightly dismissed as ludicrous.

I'm from the North of England and consequently there's quite a bit of Viking blood in me, as far as I know this was far more recent than the Jewish diaspora, and as presumably the more recent a displacement was the stronger the claim, look out Scandinavia, you owe me land!

Using genetics to determine societal advantages (right to land, rights in law, access to protection and support etc.) is inherently racist, I can't see how people could possibly defend it.

The only way I could see a glimmer of hope of justifying a violent colonisation is if it was the Palestinians who kicked out the people in the first place, but it wasn't. Get pissed at the Romans if you like, but fucking let it go.

This isn't what Israel is based on. It has nothing to do with genetics. You don't get citizenship because you have jewish genes you get it because you are jewish and a part of the nationality. There is the exception with grandparents but that was done to mirror the Nuremberg laws. Also other nations have laws that your parents can pass down citzenship based on a diaspora.

No one but the crazy religious people and idiots in america base the legitamacy of Israel base on the Jews having a natural right to the land.

Azih · May 12, 2012

RawPower said:
Wouldn't a peace treaty imply that Israel stops grabbing land and all that other shit? Doesn't that go without saying?

What I'm saying is that it is crazy to expect good faith negotiations over land to even begin when one side is not only actively grabbing more and more of it but state policy is to encourage it even further. 'Natural expansion', IDF protection for settlements, generous subsidies for settlers etc etc.

Israel is actively expanding on disputed territory. This is an insurmountable obstacle not only to peace but to peace negotiations in good faith as well.

theignoramus · May 12, 2012

el retorno de los sapos said:
This helps

This isn't what Israel is based on. It has nothing to do with genetics. You don't get citizenship because you have jewish genes you get it because you are jewish and a part of the nationality. There is the exception with grandparents but that was done to mirror the Nuremberg laws. Also other nations have laws that your parents can pass down citzenship based on a diaspora.

No one but the crazy religious people and idiots in america base the legitamacy of Israel base on the Jews having a natural right to the land.

the law of return is partly related to genetics, hence the swarm of Russians coming into Israel claiming Jewish grandmothers.

astroturfing · May 12, 2012

so.. collective punishment against Lebanese civilians because Iran wants nuclear power... ok then.

RawPower · May 12, 2012

Azih said:
What I'm saying is that it is crazy to expect good faith negotiations over land to even begin when one side is not only actively grabbing more and more of it but state policy is to encourage it even further. 'Natural expansion', IDF protection for settlements, generous subsidies for settlers etc etc.

Israel is actively expanding on disputed territory. This is an insurmountable obstacle not only to peace but to peace negotiations in good faith as well.

This is exactly what I implied needs to stop before peace negotiations can begin, so I'm not seeing your point.

el retorno de los sapos said:
This isn't what Israel is based on. It has nothing to do with genetics. You don't get citizenship because you have jewish genes you get it because you are jewish and a part of the nationality. There is the exception with grandparents but that was done to mirror the Nuremberg laws. Also other nations have laws that your parents can pass down citzenship based on a diaspora.

No one but the crazy religious people and idiots in america base the legitamacy of Israel base on the Jews having a natural right to the land.

Thank you.

I think people forget far too often that persecution against Jews, regardless of how religious you were, was nigh ubiquitous when Zionism was conceptualized. Almost everybody the world over hated us, and wanted us gone. The fact that we wanted a state to call our own is perfectly understandable. However, I still argue that the state should have been shared with the Palestinian Arabs without evicting them from their homes.

astroturfing · May 12, 2012

RawPower said:
This is exactly what I implied needs to stop before peace negotiations can begin, so I'm not seeing your point.

so how do you stop it, if Israel doesnt want to stop itself? military intervention?

RawPower · May 12, 2012

astroturfing said:
so how do you stop it, if Israel doesnt want to stop itself? military intervention?

If it has to come to that, then yes.

el retorno · May 12, 2012

astroturfing said:
so.. collective punishment against Lebanese civilians because Iran wants nuclear power... ok then.

What did you read?

The guy stated that if Hezbollah attacks in retaliation for a strike on Iran (which hezbollah doesn't have to do) that Israel will respond and that hiding in civilian areas doesn't prevent Israel from acting (which is permissible under the Geneva conventions.) thrown in with some stupid talk about razing cities.

Then you have Hezbollah saying they want to take down buildings in Tel Aviv.

Azih said:
What I'm saying is that it is crazy to expect good faith negotiations over land to even begin when one side is not only actively grabbing more and more of it but state policy is to encourage it even further. 'Natural expansion', IDF protection for settlements, generous subsidies for settlers etc etc.

Israel is actively expanding on disputed territory. This is an insurmountable obstacle not only to peace but to peace negotiations in good faith as well.

Can't you say that peace in impossible and stupid to negotiate a settlement when you have the area that is to become the new state divided into two governments, one of which doesn't recognize Israel and has in its manifesto the goal of driving jews off the land, and when you have rockets that are launched from that territory (which even if they aren't hamas' shows an incompetent government).

My goal isn't to say that the negotiations are stupid or counter productive its to say that pre-conditions are silly and counter productive. pre-conditions are demanding solutions without discussions. Israel needs to drop the stupid jewish state thing from letting them come to the table and Palestine needs to drop their border and setttlement demand (those should stop based on international law) before the come to the table. Both sides are stalling because they don't want to discuss the issues (Abass doesn't want to tell his people that they are letting some settlements stay and Bibi doesn't want to say that some people are going to be forcefully removed and that part of Jersualem is under PA authority). Everybody knows that if there is a peace deal what it will look like (the leaked palestinian papers show as much) but to have these things decided before they even get their is stupid and a game that they are playing.

Instigator · May 12, 2012

RawPower said:
If it has to come to that, then yes.

Not very likely.

And it would add to the historic self-pity and sense of entitlement that fuels zionism.

RawPower · May 12, 2012

Instigator said:
historic self-pity and sense of entitlement that fuels zionism.

Ok, now you're crossing the line here. It was neither self-pity or entitlement that fueled Zionism. It was a desire to permanently escape persecution and live amongst each other.

Pollux · May 12, 2012

theignoramus said:
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/witness/2012/05/20125915313256768.html

so not only does Israel continue to steal Palestinian homes and lands, it it wont give back any of the Palestinian cultural artifacts it robbed. why arent Americans informed of this every single time some drone rambles on about Israel's moral virtue.

something something nation of israel...something...glory....something...second coming of christ.

el retorno · May 12, 2012

Instigator said:
And it would add to the historic self-pity and sense of entitlement that fuels zionism.

That's not what drives Zionism. Zionism was birthed out of the self-confidence of the Jewish people in the 19th century who took it upon themselves to form a nation after 2000 years.

There was no entitlement or self-pity.

theignoramus said:
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/witness/2012/05/20125915313256768.html

so not only does Israel continue to steal Palestinian homes and lands, it it wont give back any of the Palestinian cultural artifacts it robbed. why arent Americans informed of this every single time some drone rambles on about Israel's moral virtue.

You gonna rage against most museums in the western world?

RawPower · May 12, 2012

el retorno de los sapos said:
That's not what drives Zionism. Zionism was birthed out of the self-confidence of the Jewish people in the 19th century who took it upon themselves to form a nation after 2000 years.

There was no entitlement or self-pity.

That and what I outlined above. The fact that he even put it in those terms, considering what we had endured for hundreds and hundreds of years, is highly fucking offensive.

Pollux · May 12, 2012

RawPower said:
That and what I outlined above. The fact that he even put it in those terms, considering what we had endured for thousands of years, is highly fucking offensive.

Fixed that for ya.

RawPower · May 12, 2012

zmoney said:
Fixed that for ya.

I don't know if I'd say thousands, but close enough.

Pollux · May 12, 2012

RawPower said:
I don't know if I'd say thousands, but close enough.

If we're counting Old Testament type hardships through the Roman destruction of the Temple and on into the present? Thousands seems applicable.

Instigator · May 12, 2012

RawPower said:
That and what I outlined above. The fact that he even put it in those terms, considering what we had endured for hundreds and hundreds of years, is highly fucking offensive.

There you go again.

If it was really about self-confidence, you wouldn't harp on on the centuries of persecution either to rebut me or to explain why the state of Israel absolutely had to be created.

But my previous point still stand since intervening military in Israel would involve the world and traditional Israeli allies betraying them. Israel already does a bang-up job wallowing in self-pity over their current isolation.

RawPower · May 12, 2012

Instigator said:
There you go again.

If it was really about self-confidence, you wouldn't harp on on the centuries of persecution either to rebut me or to explain why the state of Israel absolutely had to be created.

But my previous point still stand since intervening military in Israel would involve the world and traditional Israeli allies betraying them. Israel already does a bang-up job wallowing in self-pity over their current isolation.

I didn't say it was just about self-confidence, just that it was part of it. You are the one who made that leap in logic, not me. My beef with your comment centered on your insinuation that our desire to be independent and flee the persecution that we've faced for centuries was "self-pitying". Fuck off, if that's what you think.

RawPower said:
That and what I outlined above. The fact that he even put it in those terms, considering what we had endured for hundreds and hundreds of years, is highly fucking offensive.

There you go.

el retorno · May 12, 2012

Instigator said:
There you go again.

If it was really about self-confidence, you wouldn't harp on on the centuries of persecution either to rebut me or to explain why the state of Israel absolutely had to be created.

But my previous point still stand since intervening military in Israel would involve the world and traditional Israeli allies betraying them. Israel already does a bang-up job wallowing in self-pity over their current isolation.

Its self-confidence because they didn't "wallow in self-pity", they did something. Taking about past hardship is not self-pity. Forming a nation out of a diaspora of over 1000 years isn't "wallowing in self-pity". That's not zionism which your accusing of self-pity. That's a select group of people. Threating to attack Iran in defiance of other nations isn't self-pity as well. Attacking Iraq and Syria wasn't also.

The Jewish people have gotten over their self pity.

Instigator · May 12, 2012

RawPower said:
I didn't say it was just about self-confidence, just that it was part of it. It was you who made that leap in logic. My beef with your comment centered on your insinuation that our desire to be independent and flee persecution we've faced for centuries was "self-pitying". That is highly offensive, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if you got your ass kicked if you had made those comments to a Jewish person's face.

A large chunk of liberal Jews don't give a rat's ass about Israel. In fact, they're often embarassed by it. So they would not take issue with anything I said because they know it concerns Zionists and not Jews in general.

el retorno · May 12, 2012

Instigator said:
A large chunk of liberal Jews don't give a rat's ass about Israel. In fact, they're often embarassed by it. So they would not take issue with anything I said because they know it concerns Zionists and not Jews in general.

Most liberal jew's do "give a rats ass" about Israel. Criticizing a country isn't not caring.

And this "i'm antizionist but not antijewish" is stupid because it walks a line and more often than not is antisemetic because it denys the jewish people their right to self-determination and nationhood that are afforded to other groups.

RawPower · May 12, 2012

Instigator said:
A large chunk of liberal Jews don't give a rat's ass about Israel. In fact, they're often embarassed by it. So they would not take issue with anything I said because they know it concerns Zionists and not Jews in general.

I think criticizing Jews for being pissed off about centuries of persecution and wanting to end it once and for all (even if it doesn't result in a Jewish state like Israel) is something that would make any Jew grind their teeth. Hell, it certainly made ME angry.

Instigator · May 12, 2012

el retorno de los sapos said:
Most liberal jew's do "give a rats ass" about Israel. Criticizing a country isn't not caring.

And this "i'm antizionist but not antijewish" is stupid because it walks a line and more often than not is antisemetic because it denys the jewish people their right to self-determination and nationhood that are afforded to other groups.

I was born Catholic, but I don't even bother criticizing Vatican policies. I don't care. If you force the issue, I can try to give you my sketchy piece of mind, but it doesn't matter to me in my everyday life. Mock the concept of the holy Trinity and I still won't care!

Every Jew is born a Jew, but whether they become practicing Jews or supporters/critics is not a given. It's important to make the distinction between Jewish/Zionist in the thread because I think posters like Rawpower confuse the two.

Edit: "Antizionism is antisemitism" can be true, but it is also true it is used as a crotch in debates. Now that we got that out of the way, care to continue?

RawPower · May 12, 2012

Instigator said:
I was born Catholic, but I don't even bother criticizing Vatican policies. I don't care. If you force the issue, I can try to give you my sketchy piece of mind, but it doesn't matter to me in my everyday life. Mock the concept of the holy Trinity and I still won't care!

Christians are not a historically persecuted and widely hated ethnic minority. In fact, it was generally the Catholic church that carried out the pogroms and genocides against us for so many years in the first place. You simply cannot equate the two.

Every Jew is born a Jew, but whether they become practicing Jews or supporters/critics is not a given. It's important to make the distinction between Jewish/Zionist in the thread because I think posters like Rawpower confuse the two.

No, I do not confuse the two. However, it is hardly illogical for many Jews to believe in the principles of Zionism, at least the ones that don't entail oppressing others.

Edit: "Antizionism is antisemitism" can be true, but it is also true it is used as a crotch in debates. Now that we got that out of the way, care to continue?

This is why I tend to cross-examine the living shit out of anyone who calls themselves anti-Zionist.

Instigator · May 12, 2012

RawPower said:
Christians are not a historically persecuted and widely hated ethnic minority. In fact, it was generally the Catholic church that carried out the pogroms and genocides against us for so many years. You simply cannot equate the two.

I can question whether individuals are beholden/sympathetic to an organization or not. Level of persecution is irrelevant in this matter.

Whether Christians, by baptism or practicing, are or were persecuted or could win any medal in the oppression Olympics is a completely different issue. I'd also say it's irrelevant.

Stay focus, Rawpower.

This is why I tend to cross-examine the living shit out of anyone who calls themselves anti-Zionist.

You'll have a lot of examining to do at NeoGAF. A whole lot.

theignoramus · May 12, 2012

el retorno de los sapos said:
What did you read?

The guy stated that if Hezbollah attacks in retaliation for a strike on Iran (which hezbollah doesn't have to do) that Israel will respond and that hiding in civilian areas doesn't prevent Israel from acting (which is permissible under the Geneva conventions.) thrown in with some stupid talk about razing cities.

Then you have Hezbollah saying they want to take down buildings in Tel Aviv.

Can't you say that peace in impossible and stupid to negotiate a settlement when you have the area that is to become the new state divided into two governments, one of which doesn't recognize Israel and has in its manifesto the goal of driving jews off the land, and when you have rockets that are launched from that territory (which even if they aren't hamas' shows an incompetent government).

My goal isn't to say that the negotiations are stupid or counter productive its to say that pre-conditions are silly and counter productive. pre-conditions are demanding solutions without discussions. Israel needs to drop the stupid jewish state thing from letting them come to the table and Palestine needs to drop their border and setttlement demand (those should stop based on international law) before the come to the table. Both sides are stalling because they don't want to discuss the issues (Abass doesn't want to tell his people that they are letting some settlements stay and Bibi doesn't want to say that some people are going to be forcefully removed and that part of Jersualem is under PA authority). Everybody knows that if there is a peace deal what it will look like (the leaked palestinian papers show as much) but to have these things decided before they even get their is stupid and a game that they are playing.

yeah, that's silly chest beating, right? you dismiss psychotic statements from Israeli leaders as just "stupid talk" yet you take great offence to similar language from Iranian leaders. you're a hypocrite.

My goal isn't to say that the negotiations are stupid or counter productive its to say that pre-conditions are silly and counter productive. pre-conditions are demanding solutions without discussions. Israel needs to drop the stupid jewish state thing from letting them come to the table and Palestine needs to drop their border and setttlement demand

hmmm, demanding to be recognized as an ethnic state versus a demand based on international law and a world court ruling, one of these things has far more legitimacy than the other. quit acting like Palestinian pre-conditions and Israeli pre-conditions are even remotely the same. The only Israeli condition the Palestinians should have to meet is a cease-fire. That's it.

theignoramus · May 12, 2012

el retorno de los sapos said:
Most liberal jew's do "give a rats ass" about Israel. Criticizing a country isn't not caring.

And this "i'm antizionist but not antijewish" is stupid because it walks a line and more often than not is antisemetic because it denys the jewish people their right to self-determination and nationhood that are afforded to other groups.

no it doesnt. the argument is predicated on jewish self determination being incompatible with an Arab majority state. it doesnt take a genius to understand what's being implied about Arabs.

RawPower · May 12, 2012

Instigator said:
I can question whether individuals are beholden/sympathetic to an organization or not. Level of persecution is irrelevant in this matter.

Whether Christians, by baptism or practicing, are or were persecuted or could win any medal in the oppression Olympics is a completely different issue. I'd also say it's irrelevant.

Stay focus, Rawpower.

It is perfectly relevant to what we were just talking about. You said we were self-pitying, and that Zionism itself was fueled by it, and then went on to talk about how impervious you are (as a Catholic) to criticism of your church thereby suggesting we should be the same way. The Jewish plight is lightyears apart from whatever Christians are facing or have faced previously. The comparison is completely asinine.

You'll have a lot of examining to do at NeoGAF. A whole lot.

I'm used to it. I've been doing over the course of this entire thread.

el retorno · May 12, 2012

theignoramus said:
yeah, that's silly chest beating, right? you dismiss psychotic statements from Israeli leaders as just "stupid talk" yet you take great offence to similar language from Iranian leaders. you're a hypocrite.

From Iranian leaders? You don't see statements from a country that threaten the end of a state to be different than a threat that an army won't go easy if it is attacked?

theignoramus said:
hmmm, demanding to be recognized as an ethnic state versus a demand based on international law and a world court ruling, one of these things has far more legitimacy than the other. quit acting like Palestinian pre-conditions and Israeli pre-conditions are even remotely the same. The only Israeli condition the Palestinians should have to meet is a cease-fire. That's it.

Where did I say that I said the preconditions were equal? My point was that they should not be "pre-conditions." They are things that should be decided in the negotiations rather than before the fact. Both are using these to justify doing nothing.

theignoramus said:
no it doesnt. the argument is predicated on jewish self determination being incompatible with an Arab majority state. it doesnt take a genius to understand what's being implied about Arabs.

What was the state in 47? Were there more jews or arabs? Was anyone forced out in 47 (before the war) by the formation of Israel?

And no crap jewish self-determiation isn't compatible with an arab majority state.

theignoramus · May 12, 2012

el retorno de los sapos said:
You gonna rage against most museums in the western world?

Except we werent talking about "the western world" in here. In this thread, we were talking about Israel. Is the fact that the British or the Belgians or the French robbed cultural artifacts from Egypt and the Congo and other places around the world supposed to excuse Israel? You spend so much time arguing that Israel isnt the way those colonial enterprises were.

Instigator · May 12, 2012

RawPower said:
It is perfectly relevant to what we were just talking about. You said we were self-pitying, and that Zionism itself was fueled by it, and then went on to talk about how impervious you are (as a Catholic) to criticism of your church suggesting we should be the same way. The Jewish plight is lightyears apart from whatever Christians are facing or have faced previously. The comparison is completely asinine.

*sighs*

I didn't say you should feel that way, I said many of your Jewish peers already feel this way. It doesn't deny persecution, past or present, but it's a statement about a fact that many liberal Jews do not care about Israel regardless of their personal knowledge of their own history.

Yeah, you feel differently, there are 6 pages of evidence of that, we got it already.

el retorno · May 12, 2012

theignoramus said:
Except we werent talking about "the western world" in here. In this thread, we were talking about Israel. Is the fact that the British or the Belgians or the French robbed cultural artifacts from Egypt and the Congo and other places around the world supposed to excuse Israel? You spend so much time arguing that Israel isnt the way those colonial enterprises were.

No, I'm just saying the actions of 60 years ago don't make israel into the Nazi facist apartheid state. Its just you used that article to show how evil israel was. I don't see how it makes Israel worse than any other state who as taken things from war.

theignoramus · May 12, 2012

el retorno de los sapos said:
And no crap jewish self-determiation isn't compatible with an arab majority state.

why.

el retorno · May 12, 2012

theignoramus said:
why.

Its not a jewish state then. Self determination is the people of that state deciding how to organize themselves without outside interference. They decided in 47 to create a jewish state (that included arabs) why should they be forced to accept people they don't want? I should reword my statement to say it is if that is what the jewish people had decided. Which they obviously didn't

theignoramus · May 12, 2012

el retorno de los sapos said:
From Iranian leaders? You don't see statements from a country that threaten the end of a state to be different than a threat that an army won't go easy if it is attacked?

Where did I say that I said the preconditions were equal? My point was that they should not be "pre-conditions." They are things that should be decided in the negotiations rather than before the fact. Both are using these to justify doing nothing.

What was the state in 47? Were there more jews or arabs? Was anyone forced out in 47 (before the war) by the formation of Israel?

And no crap jewish self-determiation isn't compatible with an arab majority state.

why on earth is abiding by the law something to be negotiated? when Saddam Hussein occupied Kuwait, he was told to withdraw or face consequences. You dont get to break the law, then pretend that stopping your illegal activity is a legitimate concession. You stop your criminal behaviour, (settlement expansion and home evictions) then you sit down and negotiate. any actor serious about negotiations would do this. You ask Palestinians to just give up their basic rights, while you strenuously defend Israel's pie in the sky demands.

RawPower · May 12, 2012

Instigator said:
*sighs*

I didn't say you should feel that way, I said many of your Jewish peers already feel this way. It doesn't deny persecution, past or present, but it's a statement about a fact that many liberal Jews do not care about Israel regardless of their personal knowledge of their own history.

Yeah, you feel differently, there are 6 pages of evidence of that, we got it already.

I'm not unaware of this, and it is their right to feel that way if they so choose even if I don't agree with them. However, if guys like me see it differently, I don't think anyone (especially a non-Jew) has the right to tell me I'm wrong or tell us how we should feel (general statement, not directed specifically at you). In my eyes, it's equivalent to a white guy telling a black person to "get over it" when talking about slavery or discrimination they face in the present.

theignoramus · May 12, 2012

el retorno de los sapos said:
Its not a jewish state then. Self determination is the people of that state deciding how to organize themselves without outside interference. They decided in 47 to create a jewish state (that included arabs) why should they be forced to accept people they don't want? I should reword my statement to say it is if that is what the jewish people had decided. Which they obviously didn't

why? because the law says you dont get to throw people out of their homes ,rob their possessions, then deny them the right of return. (while filling their homes and lands with more ethnically desirable people. In Israel's case, eastern Europeans)

RawPower · May 12, 2012

theignoramus said:
(while filling their homes and lands with more ethnically desirable people. In Israel's case, eastern Europeans)

Those "Eastern Europeans" more than likely have ancestors who lived in those lands (unless they converted in the past century), and most of their DNA deriving from those lands. Didn't we discuss this before?

Again, not that this is any justification for kicking people out of their homes.

el retorno · May 12, 2012

theignoramus said:
why on earth is abiding by the law something to be negotiated? when Saddam Hussein occupied Kuwait, he was told to withdraw or face consequences. You dont get to break the law, then pretend that stopping your illegal activity is a legitimate concession. You stop your criminal behaviour, (settlement expansion and home evictions) then you sit down and negotiate. any actor serious about negotiations would do this. You ask Palestinians to just give up their basic rights, while you strenuously defend Israel's pie in the sky demands.

The saddam comparision isn't equal. Palestine isn't a independent state yet. It is occupied territory. Israel is legally allowed to be in west bank and gaza under international law. Its just the population transfers and making part of the territory Israeli that are illegal.

I also never said it was something to be negotiated. I just said both sides should just talk.

Where did I also ask Palestinians to give up their basic rights? I never said the settlements were legal (they're not). I just said talk.

theignoramus said:
why? because the law says you dont get to throw people out of their homes ,rob their possessions, then deny them the right of return. (while filling their homes and lands with more ethnically desirable people. In Israel's case, eastern Europeans)

1947 nobody was kicked out of their house until the war started. There are still arabs in israel. Your entire framing of the formation of Israel as a bunch of europeans coming over and kicking arabs out and stealing everything is pretty biased and not all that true.

Osietra · May 12, 2012

theignoramus said:
why? because the law says you dont get to throw people out of their homes ,rob their possessions, then deny them the right of return. (while filling their homes and lands with more ethnically desirable people. In Israel's case, eastern Europeans)

So awesome.

RawPower · May 12, 2012

I kind of want this thread to just die already. It just seems like we're going in circles now.

theignoramus · May 12, 2012

RawPower said:
Those "Eastern Europeans" more than likely have ancestors who lived in those lands, and most of their DNA deriving from those lands. Didn't we discuss this before?

that's fine. do the Arabs who can trace their history to plot of land over 500 years ago have the same right to the land or should they rot in Gaza or whatever refugee camp they happen to be in? Israel says the eastern European and the Ethiopian with a distant thousand year old connection to the land is more entitled to the land than an Arab with lineage going back to early days of the Ottoman era

el retorno · May 12, 2012

RawPower said:
I kind of want this thread to just die already. It just seems like we're going in circles now.

Is this your first Israel/Iran thread on GAF?

RawPower · May 12, 2012

theignoramus said:
that's fine. do the Arabs who can trace their history to plot of land over 500 years ago have the same right to the land or should they rot in Gaza or whatever refugee camp they happen to be in? Israel says the eastern European and the Ethiopian with a distant thousand year old connection to the land is more entitled to the land than an Arab.

See my edit to that post up above.

el retorno de los sapos said:
Is this your first Israel/Iran thread on GAF?

No. I actually authored a couple of threads on here about Israel, in fact.

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