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PS4 Rumors , APU code named 'Liverpool' Radeon HD 7970 GPU Steamroller CPU 16GB Flash
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yeah the core i7 isnt even an 8-core cpu! its a quad with hyperthreading!
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yeah, I was looking at timeline and 8 Jaguar for XB3 while Sony still had at that time 4 Steamroller CPUs. Deleted the Pastebin post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Fusion#Steamroller said:
Someone in this thread has recently discovered teh internet.
Did you know that BC were ruled out by IBM for the XBox 360 to prevent the
risk of trashing the 360's schedule date? Microsoft came late with the idea of
BC. The main issue was the endianess of the different architectures, i. e.
x86 (XBox) little-endian versus PowerPC (XBox 360) big-endian. Doing
byte-reversal in software draws quite a lot of performance. Now think
about the PS4. Well, I guess we will see some big-endianess in the PS4.
I strongly assume this. You can't switch off your mind.
Did you know that BC were ruled out by IBM for the XBox 360 to prevent the
risk of trashing the 360's schedule date? Microsoft came late with the idea of
BC. The main issue was the endianess of the different architectures, i. e.
x86 (XBox) little-endian versus PowerPC (XBox 360) big-endian. Doing
byte-reversal in software draws quite a lot of performance. Now think
about the PS4. Well, I guess we will see some big-endianess in the PS4.
phosphor112
Banned
Never thought about the endianess for BC. AMD is x86, so wouldn't that be little-E? Also, what did the cell do? Big or little?
That is what I'm wondering as well. Isn't it true that frequency scales more linearly than adding SPs? I guess there has to be a sweet spot of frequency/SPs somewhere that takes performance, die size and TDP into account.
Microsoft wanted IBM to emulate the x86 architecture on the PowerPC core,
i.e. implementing an additional x86 microcode within the instruction decoder,
which isn't that much of a problem if you can program the processors'
microcode first hand - as any microprocessor manufacture can. But
nevertheless, the data coming out from the cache presented to the processor
have wrong byte-ordering. So IBM would also had to reworked the cache
control-logic, which was too big of a risk.
Cell lives big, AMD and Intel little.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
CBEA is currently big-endian.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
PS2's MIPS CPU core was little endian... hence:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/archive/index.php/t-20871.html
phosphor112
Banned
I think backwards compatibility alone will ensure the cell lives in a future playstation 4. Too many games both disk based and psn based rely on the spus and it would be corporate suicide for sony to cut those off. Especially when you consider how much backlash they received for cutting ps2 BC away from later ps3 models.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
Why can't don't just slap in a cell in ps4? How much would that cost them? Cell cost little to nothing right now i'm guessing.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
There is no way in hell ps4 will not have backwards compatibility. Sony would be forced to drop out the console race over such a stupid move. Ps4 would absolutely flop. especially since xbox will most likely have it.
In the end the negatives outweigh the positives. I doubt its about cost at all.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
What is negative about it? Just slap in a cell for backwards compatibility. Why is that so hard?
Well Cell still being radically different than the other system that devs want to work on is still a big issue. Most developers have seemingly come to terms with the chip but still, its disadvantageous.
There is also the task of actually improving Cell with more modern features and fixing some of the flaws of its computing model. Besides what some "experts" here will tell you its alot more meticulous than just throwing more SPEs and what not. At Sonys current stage I doubt they want to spend the time and money to R&D that when they could just contract that out and get around the same return. I also believe they would rather spend more of the budgets on the GPU side anyway.
You can look back a few pages and see that I think highly of Cell but most of the game development scene doesn't seem to want it.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
It seems like your post is taking about ps4 using the cell as it's main CPU. I'm asking why can't Sony just through Ps3's cell in ps4 strictly for backwards compatibility.
It was im sorry.
To put it simply, it would raise the complexity of the system for a feature that may seem far less relevant a couple years in the life-cycle. There's a lot more to it than just slapping a chip on a mother board.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
But backwards compatibility is allot more important than it used to be. If Sony doesn't have it they will be in dead last again
The answer was givwn by me and others in this thread. But I can repeat it. Managing the address and data buses for so many processors would be a nightmare on every level. It would also increase the price of the hardware by $50 or more. Financial suicide for Sony just to please a few people who want to play PS3 games on a PS4.
It's not Just a few people though is it. It's fundamental to the early success of the console.
I know i will be pissed if I cant play my PSN content on the PS4, because there will be no other way to play it (other than keeping my ps3) but no one wants another console under their tv.
Appollowexx
Member
It's not really that big of a deal. Just stick the PS3 in your bedroom and use it as a bedroom bluray player, then have the PS4 in your main room. Or have it packed away until the rare occasion comes along that you want to replay an old game.
EDIT - I can see how BC would be a good move for those who did not own a PS3 as it would allow them to catch up on a massive backlog of amazing exclusives, however by then the PS3 will probobly be $100 or something in most second hand stores so it's not a huge deal.
But backwards compatibility is allot more important than it used to be. If Sony doesn't have it they will be in dead last again
We don't know how much of an impact the lack of BC will have. Also a console's place is largely irrelevant if they are still receiving great support, which the PS3 is currently enjoying. Nothing would change if they were a few million ahead of the 360 instead of a few behind.
Should give Sony, and the 3rd party publishes, more incentive to create great content early on. =p
FWIW I think it's wrong to assume any next gen system, outside the Wii-U, will have BC.
But backwards compatibility is allot more important than it used to be. If Sony doesn't have it they will be in dead last again
I disagree, lack of bc won't kill Sony. Assuming the specs are reasonable, launch price is key. Bc would push up price, that's more of a problem.
I intend to keep me ps3 after the ps4 launches, I don't buy this theory that masses of ps3 users who buy the ps4, are then going to bin their ps3's at the launch of the next gen.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Sony filed a patent for a Method and apparatus for achieving multiple processing configurations using a Multi-processor System Architecture. The AMD HSA SoC is a Multi-processor architecture, the Xbox 360 has a Multi-processor architecture...it uses a Xbar switch to connect in turn different CPU packages to main memory.
The Sony patent mentions 1PPU4CPU packages that are designed to plug-in to a multi-processor system like the AMD SoC or Fusion APU.
Cell is internally a multi-processor Ring bus architecture but externally it can't be plugged into any other multi-processor system.
If both Durango and PS4 are using the same SoC then BC would require PPC and SPUs in the SOC for both, two package of 1PPU4SPU would work. Anyone know the cost?
phosphor112
Banned
The big difference with slapping a cell in vs any other chip for BC is that the Cell is extremely versatile and can be used from sound processing, to running java apps, to graphics processing.
here is a rumor about Microsoft & Sony working together but they don't say how they will be working together
http://www.nintendoenthusiast.com/microsoft-and-sony-working-together/
Dear god, this was posted in the Wii U thread. Don't give the site any hits. It's BS.
bgassassin
Member
Just for the sake of fun, discussion, and speculation, someone on IGN posed the following in response to that article.
Bobby_Digital36 said:
Coincidentally that post on EVGA did say both were using the same SOC.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Sony and MS having near the same power would make next gen even more about games and services than ever before .
Would be interesting for certain if that happens.
Would be interesting for certain if that happens.
Xeon Phi cores might be interesting for a CPU when you put them next to a proper fat OoO CPU core.So clearly, Sony should get one of those for it's next console (lol)
Anyways, from this little bit of googling, Xeon Phi looks like the carcass of Larrabee. It even comes on a PCIE card
Looks closer to a GPU than CPU. Even said to be competing with Nvidia GK110. Not sure you really want a GPU as your CPU, that was half the problem with Cell.
IE.
2 i5/i7 cores and 20 Xeon Phi cores might be a quite nice thing for an CPU, especially if same basic code could run on both core types. (outside obvious MMX, SSE.. etc.)
Canis lupus
Member
But backwards compatibility is allot more important than it used to be. If Sony doesn't have it they will be in dead last again
BC was never the reason for PS3s sales performance.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
Wow so both consoles are going to be practically the same? Same CPU and same GPU. If the memory rumors are still true, then we may have one with a lot more memory and the other with a lot more bandwidth, but that may have changed as well.
If the consoles came to be nearly identical I'd be kinda disappointed.
Canis lupus
Member
Not liking those rumors. :/
jeff_rigby
Banned
Reading between the lines, yes. It said the SoCs were essentially the same but tweaked for each which doesn't make sense. One of the examples mentioned one tweaked for DirectX and the other tweaked for OpenGL. Does that make sense? On PCs it's the Software drivers that are tweaked not the hardware. Also sharing the exact same SoC reduces production costs while custom tweaked SoCs would not.
This makes sense, the optimum design given the same company making the components to fit in a SoC would be the same for both Sony and Microsoft; it's physics.
Timing mentioned in the article bothers me. The Microsoft-Sony.com domain name was registered 7/2011 but the PS4 and Xbox 720 design had to be started earlier (Late 2010). So this partnership may not be about the hardware. That technology is such that everyone will have similar hardware I think plays a role in opening the eyes of executives in both companies (eyes opened in 2010, AMD plans for HSA and it's application to server farms + what TSVs can do for APUs cost and efficiency as well as HMC memory).
My best guess is related to what I think Microsoft and Sony fear and that's an expansion of GaiKai and OnLive. Cheap $30 Android platforms connected to a TV can play a game as well as a PS4 and Xbox 720. It was mentioned in the Xbox 720 powerpoint that Microsoft may buy OnLive to keep it from disrupting it's AAA games market; Sony is buying GaiKai.http://www.nintendoenthusiast.com/microsoft-and-sony-working-together/ said:
There is also that Webkit2 is reaching the point in allowing a new OS similar to Google's Chrome OS and Linux is soon going to by default support handhelds. Linux with a Browser desktop and enough apps given serious applications served via Gaikai or OnLive and who needs Windows or powerful desktop computers or powerful game consoles. Remember Sony stating that they are betting on Handhelds being the future.
So both Microsoft and Sony see their cash cows being threatened and Google who is in a position to know what's coming is talking to both.
Distributed processing is coming if Gigabit networking is supported by your local IP. Major applications can be supported by the same computers running OpenCL to play games and WebCL is coming at the end of this year. There are multiple ways this can go with local server farms supporting multiple models with the same hardware from serving games and Movies via h.264 or h.265 and serving applications via OpenCL and by 2015 serving or augmenting local processing power for games via openCL in a select few but expanding market (depends on IP speeds and a local server farm).
Microsoft is now part of the group setting standards for the HMC (Hybrid Memory Cube) which is best used/designed to support HPC server farms = on-line onLive or GaiKai server farms. Sony filed a patent 12/2011 for distributed processing:
So Microsoft and Sony joining with Google or brokered by Google to go into partnership to first buy any startup competition and then provide server farm video and eventually distributed processing at a price and with features that keep anyone else from entering the market. My best guess and again wild speculation.http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=38329795&postcount=6 said:
Microsoft and Sony sharing design costs for next generation SoC and refresh for current generation (my speculation) may not be related to the above but does require AMD and IBM to point out to Sony and Microsoft that it's practical and reduces the costs of both the Xbox 360 and PS3. Now given the above, a PS3 or Xbox 360 refresh that sells for less than a PS4 or Xbox 720 could have a life that extends for longer than any previous generation....right alongside the PS4 and Xbox 720 that would be local versions of the plans for server farms for handhelds (mentioned in the Xbox 720 powerpoint).
Also mentioned in the Xbox 720 powerpoint is by 2015 local Xbox 720 hardware augmented by server farms so you never need to upgrade again (method not specified and it's debatable either via video like GaiKai or distributed processing which currently isn't possible due to propagation delay (need gigabit and local server farms which may be coming ( Google is implementing gigabit Internet in select cities)).
Given a longer potential life for box 360 and PS3 and the ease in using new technology to both reduce price as well as increase the power of both why wouldn't they do so. The desktop and application side (HTML5 WebCL gesture/voice recognition) of both can use the new power and still allow the game side to be 100% compatible. It's the application and on-line side of both that is going to be the future.
The Xbox 720 powerpoint mentioned the flaws in the Xbox 360 that were going to be addressed in the Xbox 720 (which applies to everything including games) but also mentioned a Xbox 361 for XTV that would require addressing the Xbox 360 shortcomings to support XTV which is the on-line applications side of the Xbox 360 not the game side. They are; 1080P, multi-processing and HDMI pass-thru (low power modes assumed), add to that a gigabit network port and it would match the PS3 features of day one (PS3 original design had 2 HDMI ports which were either HDMI pass-thru or some multi-monitor or 3-D custom monitor support and I can find no information to pin this down).
That's one of the best rumors to come out both with powerful GPUs & it even talk about a Ray-Tracer
I love that rumor & want it to be true.
That's one of the best rumors to come out both with powerful GPUs & it even talk about a Ray-Tracer
I love that rumor & want it to be true.
Doesnt it make both platform (XBox Next & Playstation 4) pretty similar:
- Jaguar cores & 192 GCN SPs
I see that they are optimised differently but underlying hardware will be more or less same.. doesnt look like a competition any more
Canis lupus
Member
That's one of the best rumors to come out both with powerful GPUs & it even talk about a Ray-Tracer
I love that rumor & want it to be true.
What does he mean with raytracer? Is that the price of the gpu wich is able to do raytracing? That seems a high clockspeed for the ram, though I don't know how much they're clocked in the ps360.
Doesnt it make both platform (XBox Next & Playstation 4) pretty similar:
- Jaguar cores & 192 GCN SPs
I see that they are optimised differently but underlying hardware will be more or less same.. doesnt look like a competition any more
what? the competition now is bigger than any time before.....
don't know but is wise to push for better lightning and shading....
the games polygon count is adequate even now,investing in effects/shading etc will make the difference and no ipad,wiiu or average pc will match.
of course having higher poly models is necessary but not the most important i think
How so if the specs are the same?
jeff_rigby
Banned
Could be the AMD GPU as it's going to do a limited ray-tracing for lighting called bundled ray tracing but it could also be a add-on co-processor to augment the GPU and would be more CPU like. I ran across a couple of tech papers mentioning it but only in passing so I know nothing about it other than it's possible.
FPGA in this case is probably prototyping using a FPGA. Or maybe not because the Sony CTO mentioned programmable logic arrays and SimiAccurate translated that to FPGA (Field programmable gate arrays).http://vr-zone.com/articles/revenge-is-sweet-powervr-discrete-gpgpu-pcie-card-coming-later-in-2012/14609.html#ixzz1kOH16ssR said:
oh you mean between them? i thought you mean no competition in console and gaming...
well even with having similar specs to lower costs they will compete in experiences and services not gfx.....
the multiplatforms will be the same(making publishers happy) and they will push for unique stuff on their system,not only gfx.
I'd much prefer differing specs and approaches so that I can buy a console that has better games or games that are better suited for me (because the specs can determine which sort of a genre plays better on the console) rather than services. Also with the same specs they'd have to launch at the same prices which seems a bit far-fetched to me.
You seen the E3 tech demos? Somewhere along those lines.
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