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[Giant Panda]

Da fuck?
Cell phone - rly?
Didn't you learn anything from the doc the last 10 pages?!?
Cell is crap, it has no integers, what you want is Xenon phone - it's like 3 x the Cell one launched 1983 (3 months before Cell phone) and it has cache!

You win the thread.

 

[Raistlin]

This thread needs an enema

 

[jeff_rigby]

This thread needs an enema

No just a little time to digest before we take on more crap <grin>. The good stuff filters through and feeds new ways of looking at things.

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

As for backward compatibility, as long as it makes business sense, Sony will (have to) figure a way out. e.g., port them like today's HD collection, sell an additional B/C module, or stream it in the future in markets where the network is robust enough.

I've been saying for a long time I think the best thing for Sony to do financially would be to release an add-on accessory that would allow BC in PS4. Sell it for $79-$99. profit margin would be at least 50%. This could allow them to raise the BOM for PS4.

A lot of people wouldnt like it, but I think it be a smart business decision, and I guarantee it would have really high attach rate with early adopters.

 

[StevieP]

I've been saying for a long time I think the best thing for Sony to do financially would be to release an add-on accessory that would allow BC in PS4. Sell it for $79-$99. profit margin would be at least 50%. This could allow them to raise the BOM for PS4.

A lot of people wouldnt like it, but I think it be a smart business decision, and I guarantee it would have really high attach rate with early adopters.

Yeah, the R&D for such an "add-on accessory" would be very high and I'm sure if they wanted to sell it for a "50% profit margin" it would cost a lot more than $79 (aka the price of some of the next gen controllers). In fact if you wanted that large of a margin, it would probably cost as much as a PS3 and require a port similar to Thunderbolt, adding to the price of the base console and requiring either its own memory subystem on the accessory itself (how are you planning to cool XDR on a small accessory!!!) or even more traces on the motherboard to the GDDR5 and that would create yet another set of issues.

To those of you looking at possible BC implementations, I say look toward a monthly subscription to a cloud account rather than dedicated hardware... (Especially dedicated hardware that wouldn't actually provide you with anything resembling full BC - such as 1PPE+4SPEs).

Edit: not saying it's some kind of impossibility (iirc, there is a patent suggesting Sony was looking at such things) but I think they've put their money where there mouth was recently in terms of playing classic software...

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

Yeah, the R&D for such an "add-on accessory" would be very high and I'm sure if they wanted to sell it for a "50% profit margin" it would cost a lot more than $79 (aka the price of some of the next gen controllers). In fact if you wanted that large of a margin, it would probably cost as much as a PS3 and require a port similar to Thunderbolt, adding to the price of the base console and requiring either its own memory subystem on the accessory itself (how are you planning to cool XDR on a small accessory!!!) or even more traces on the motherboard to the GDDR5 and that would create yet another set of issues.

To those of you looking at possible BC implementations, I say look toward a monthly subscription to a cloud account rather than dedicated hardware... (Especially dedicated hardware that wouldn't actually provide you with anything resembling full BC - such as 1PPE+4SPEs).

Edit: not saying it's some kind of impossibility (iirc, there is a patent suggesting Sony was looking at such things) but I think they've put their money where there mouth was recently in terms of playing classic software...

I'm sure they could get away charging $99, like MS did for years with there Wi-fi add on. Yes the R&D would be pretty high for an accessory, but wouldnt it be worth it?

I'll admit I'm not an engineer, obviously, but isnt there a way for it to just access the memory in the console? Maybe the PS4 would still have this 1PPU4SPU co processor inside, but isnt it true that they still wouldnt be able to be BC cause of the nvidia? Maybe this device would just basically include some version of RSX. I suppose some royalties would have to be paid back to them, but the thing couldnt cost much to manufacture. $30-40?

edit: im also envisioning this thing plug in through the back. Some sort of high bandwidth access port. Similar to the expansion port in the PS2. Obviously access speeds to the device would be a problem, doubt you could plug the thing in through a USB port for instance. yes it would increase the price and r&d of the motherboard, but it could still be potentially worth it if it had a BOM of $30-40 and it was sold for $80-100. Probably $100 knowing Sony. They could sell 10-15million of these things by the first 2 years. Maybe as much as 20million lifetime of the device before its discontinued. I know that would be a generous number, but even if it sold half of that lifetime wouldnt it still be a worthy investment? I'm sure at some point it would be dropped off completely and the PS4 mobo would be designed to not support it any longer, as 5-6 years into the next console cycle not enough people will care about PS3 games anymore.

 

[phosphor112]

Da fuck?
Cell phone - rly?
Didn't you learn anything from the doc the last 10 pages?!?
Cell is crap, it has no integers, what you want is Xenon phone - it's like 3 x the Cell one launched 1983 (3 months before Cell phone) and it has cache!

Lmfao.

 

[i-Lo]

If one had to make an educated (and perhaps conservative) guess of how the first parties of Sony will make their games look (at the start and then at the end) what will they be like?

 

[phosphor112]

Yeah, the R&D for such an "add-on accessory" would be very high and I'm sure if they wanted to sell it for a "50% profit margin" it would cost a lot more than $79 (aka the price of some of the next gen controllers). In fact if you wanted that large of a margin, it would probably cost as much as a PS3 and require a port similar to Thunderbolt, adding to the price of the base console and requiring either its own memory subystem on the accessory itself (how are you planning to cool XDR on a small accessory!!!) or even more traces on the motherboard to the GDDR5 and that would create yet another set of issues.

To those of you looking at possible BC implementations, I say look toward a monthly subscription to a cloud account rather than dedicated hardware... (Especially dedicated hardware that wouldn't actually provide you with anything resembling full BC - such as 1PPE+4SPEs).

Edit: not saying it's some kind of impossibility (iirc, there is a patent suggesting Sony was looking at such things) but I think they've put their money where there mouth was recently in terms of playing classic software...

PS3 BC through the cloud would be failure. Especially if it required monthly costs. I'd rather pay for an add on than stream my PS3 games.

 

[coldfoot]

Yeah, the R&D for such an "add-on accessory" would be very high and I'm sure if they wanted to sell it for a "50% profit margin" it would cost a lot more than $79 (aka the price of some of the next gen controllers). In fact if you wanted that large of a margin, it would probably cost as much as a PS3 and require a port similar to Thunderbolt, adding to the price of the base console and requiring either its own memory subystem on the accessory itself (how are you planning to cool XDR on a small accessory!!!) or even more traces on the motherboard to the GDDR5 and that would create yet another set of issues.

To those of you looking at possible BC implementations, I say look toward a monthly subscription to a cloud account rather than dedicated hardware... (Especially dedicated hardware that wouldn't actually provide you with anything resembling full BC - such as 1PPE+4SPEs).

Edit: not saying it's some kind of impossibility (iirc, there is a patent suggesting Sony was looking at such things) but I think they've put their money where there mouth was recently in terms of playing classic software...

The addon would basically be a PS3 minus blu-ray and HDD plus HDMI passthrough. You'd connect it via USB to the PS4 for accessing its blu-ray, HDD, controller and network data and usb is fast enough for all that at the same time. HDMI passthrough would be used to display its output on the screen so you would not need an high bandwidth port to transfer video back to the PS4 before outputting it on the screen.

It'd go PS4 -> HDMI (passthru) -> PS3 module -> HDMI -> TV plus the PS3 module would also have an extra USB connection to the PS4 for non-AV data.

So take the $179 PS3 ultraslim, subtract controller, blu-ray, 16GB flash, network port, analog outputs, wireless network and add a HDMI-input port and you'll have it. It could be sold for $150 and gamers would buy it.

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

The addon would basically be a PS3 minus blu-ray and HDD plus HDMI passthrough. You'd connect it via USB to the PS4 for accessing its blu-ray, HDD, controller and network data and usb is fast enough for all that at the same time. HDMI passthrough would be used to display its output on the screen so you would not need an high bandwidth port to transfer video back to the PS4 before outputting it on the screen.

It'd go PS4 -> HDMI (passthru) -> PS3 module -> HDMI -> TV plus the PS3 module would also have an extra USB connection to the PS4 for non-AV data.

So take the $179 PS3 ultraslim, subtract controller, blu-ray, 16GB flash, network port, analog outputs, wireless network and add a HDMI-input port and you'll have it. It could be sold for $150 and gamers would buy it.

hmm interesting. Guess it could go through the USB. So what do you think it would actually contain then? Cell BE as it is and RSX? Would it need its own memory as well? You wouldnt be able to use the GDDR5 in the PS4?

 

[Death Dealer]

and I guarantee it would have really high attach rate with early adopters.

I don't see it.

Who is going to spend the price of one or almost two next gen games just so the can play their old PS3 crap on their new PS4, when they probably have a PS3 sitting in the same living room already ?

BC is so overrated.

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

I don't see it.

Who is going to spend the price of one or almost two next gen games just so the can play their old PS3 crap on their new PS4, when they probably have a PS3 sitting in the same living room already ?

BC is so overrated.

I agree its overrated, but the potential early adopters are the ones who will make a huge stink of it not being there. People get up in arms over BC. I think $150 is to much though. If they cant sell it for $99 and make a good profit from that, I dont see it being worth it.

 

[Auto_aim1]

I don't see it.

Who is going to spend the price of one or almost two next gen games just so the can play their old PS3 crap on their new PS4, when they probably have a PS3 sitting in the same living room already ?

BC is so overrated.

It's overrated in a sense that people won't really use it a lot, but it is such a good feature to have when promoting a product. People are attached to their profiles, library and so on, so it becomes something very vital if you want to ensure faster migration.

 

[coldfoot]

hmm interesting. Guess it could go through the USB. So what do you think it would actually contain then? Cell BE as it is and RSX? Would it need its own memory as well? You wouldnt be able to use the GDDR5 in the PS4?

It would have to include its own memory because you can't get the same latency/throughput through USB2.

 

[dr. apocalipsis]

Da fuck?
Cell phone - rly?
Didn't you learn anything from the doc the last 10 pages?!?
Cell is crap, it has no integers, what you want is Xenon phone - it's like 3 x the Cell one launched 1983 (3 months before Cell phone) and it has cache!

A cell phone needs no batteries since its powered by cells.

A Xenon phone needs an external power supply.

Cell phone >>> Xenon phone. Everyone knows that.

hmm interesting. Guess it could go through the USB. So what do you think it would actually contain then? Cell BE as it is and RSX? Would it need its own memory as well? You wouldnt be able to use the GDDR5 in the PS4?

Why USB? WiFi B/G would be enough. Since PS3 doesn't have WiFi N it won't need any more.

Spoiler

You are aware you need a much higher bandwith interface to support such device, right?

 

[Auto_aim1]

It would have to include its own memory because you can't get the same latency/throughput through USB2.

Thunderbolt port would fix that, won't it? Vaio Z uses that for a dedicated external GPU.

Sony's Power Media Dock" uses the optical iteration of Thunderbolt to connect to an external graphics card using a combination port that behaves like USB electrically but also includes the optical interconnect required for Thunderbolt. Other implementations of the technology have begun in 2012, with desktop boards offering the interconnect now available

 

[phosphor112]

I agree its overrated, but the potential early adopters are the ones who will make a huge stink of it not being there. People get up in arms over BC. I think $150 is to much though. If they cant sell it for $99 and make a good profit from that, I dont see it being worth it.

PS2 BC for PS3 wasn't needed. Not having PS3 BC for PS4 I think is bad. They are completely cutting off all non mini/PS1 games for PS4. I've literally spent over 500 on PSN games (not including PS1 or Minis). I want to be able to play it on a PS4.

 

[coldfoot]

Thunderbolt port would fix that, won't it? Vaio Z uses that for a dedicated external GPU.

Thunderbolt would make many things simpler, but might cost more while adding nothing except for this functionality that HDMI and USB can't provide for the average user. It all comes down to the cost of choosing Thunderbolt over HDMI on the PS4.

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

It would have to include its own memory because you can't get the same latency/throughput through USB2.

would you be able to if it was plugged in through the back through some high speed port? something like a pci slot for a gpu.

 

[coldfoot]

would you be able to if it was plugged in through the back through some high speed port? something like a pci slot for a gpu.

Throughput, yes, but latency I am not so sure. Still, is it worth it to add the cost for such a slot to ALL PS4's when only 5-10% of them will actually use it?

 

[Triple U]

He asked if SPE3 could read or write to SPE1's local store. Local store is not a traditional CPU cache, so the two local stores are different regions of memory. I didn't read all his nonsense on the previous page, maybe he was arguing about the L2 cache on the PPE or something.

Cell is cache coherent so if you DMA the memory out of local store back to main memory, the copy in L2 cache will be invalidated if the PPE tries to access that same memory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_memory_access#Cell

Exactly. Its hilarious how this guy tries to quickly change the question when he is proven wrong.

Not really he is writing to shared memory l2 cache if im not mistaken.
So core 1 writes to point X when its done core 0 can read at point x.
Without having to copy the data from one cache to the other like i believe the DMA are doing for the SPE.

uugh im really the person to answer this hardware level stuff is kept at the minimum right now in CS classes.

You can transfer data between store to store at 1024 bits/cycle. The L2 cache isn't meant to be shared, it is primarily for the PPE.

 

[Auto_aim1]

Thunderbolt would make many things simpler, but might cost more while adding nothing except for this functionality that HDMI and USB can't provide for the average user. It all comes down to the cost of choosing Thunderbolt over HDMI on the PS4.

Yeah it will be expensive because the laptops that do have this functionality aren't exactly cheap, however, it can be termed as an unnecessary expense for a gaming console. It will be interesting to see how Sony handles this considering they went all out with the PS3 launch models.

 

[Zaventem]

PS2 BC for PS3 wasn't needed. Not having PS3 BC for PS4 I think is bad. They are completely cutting off all non mini/PS1 games for PS4. I've literally spent over 500 on PSN games (not including PS1 or Minis). I want to be able to play it on a PS4.

I think it is needed early in a consoles life cycle.They could just make non BC models 3- 4 years later.

 

[Death Dealer]

I agree its overrated, but the potential early adopters are the ones who will make a huge stink of it not being there. People get up in arms over BC. I think $150 is to much though. If they cant sell it for $99 and make a good profit from that, I dont see it being worth it.

Yeah they get up in arms, but I think forums exaggerate the backlash.

I remember reading about how MS commissioned a poll before the X360 launched, and something like <5% of early adopters ever use BC. So they used that data to decide not to include 100% HW BC with X360. Now I realize going forward from this generation it will be different because of the PSN purchases, but yeah I agree, it's all a matter of economics. $99 would be the ceiling, I can't imagine people willing to pay more than that, and they have to make a profit and make back the R&D to create the magic BC box.

If they can do BC on PS4 through emulation and throwing a couple of the new repackaged SPE units, that would be great, but if they have to jump through a lot of hoops to make it happen, it's just not worth it. And I think it would become a total non-issue within a year of launch, when the PS4 software library becomes compelling.

 

[StevieP]

Guys you're not going to get full BC on a $99 device sold at launch that has the Cell and RSX on it (LOL) as well as the PS3 memory that hooks up through a USB port and is somehow cooled properly (without die shrinks, btw - I think they've stopped investing in those for PS3 as well) =\

You're basically asking for a small cheap USB device that is a PS3 that happens to work through a USB port, and it's ... well I personally think it's not even remotely feasible.

What do you guys think one of the things Sony is doing with their Gakai purchase is? I'm sure legacy playback will be included in any prospective subscription model.

 

[Argyle]

Exactly. Its hilarious how this guy tries to quickly change the question when he is proven wrong.

Yeah, it's frustrating to see him post so much misinformation. For what it's worth, in my experience, the SPEs are quite fast - faster than a hardware thread on Xenon. This is without highly optimizing the SPE code, too...just recompiling the C++ code, with some additional code to DMA the data to be processed in and out. In my case performance seemed comparable to my PC, which has some Core based Xeon processor (not sure exactly which model, but it is quadcore with hyperthreading...)

I've seen programmers make the same arguments that he is making before they actually write code for the Cell...until they actually start using it, then they change their tune once they see how fast it can be. Yes, it can be a pain in the ass to package your data into smaller chunks, but the funny thing is that doing the work usually also improves performance on more conventional architectures (since stuff will stay in cache better afterwards).

 

[patsu]

A cell phone needs no batteries since its powered by cells.

You may have gotten it correct this time...

Solar cell phones take off in developing nations
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-08-21/tech/solar.cellphone_1_cell-kenya-power-early-adopters?_s=PM:TECH

Doubly correct in fact. Solar Cell. Cell phone. Ops.

A battery is still needed to store the charge, but the concept of renewable power is there.

 

[systemfehler]

Guys you're not going to get full BC on a $99 device sold at launch that has the Cell and RSX on it (LOL) as well as the PS3 memory that hooks up through a USB port and is somehow cooled properly (without die shrinks, btw - I think they've stopped investing in those for PS3 as well) =\

You're basically asking for a small cheap USB device that is a PS3 that happens to work through a USB port, and it's ... well I personally think it's not even remotely feasible.

What do you guys think one of the things Sony is doing with their Gakai purchase is? I'm sure legacy playback will be included in any prospective subscription model.

I thought so too but wouldn't Sony need 1 PS3 (or something awfully similar) per user for true backwards compatibility unless they have a really giant computing cluster which can emulate the PS3? The hardware for PC games does not need to be emulated because it is PC hardware but for the PS3 you need either a massive power boost or PS3 legacy components at least. I might be wrong and it is actually pretty easy to achieve true BC with Gaikai services - so far I have yet to be convinced. This of course raises the question why Sony even bought Gaikai? Maybe to offer PSN games to TVs, mobile phones, tablets and other small devices. I imagine this could be Sonys version of the Xbox 360 Arcade concept - all Sony devices can play PSN games wether you own a PS4 or not. One account and you have your PSN games everyhwere you take your phone and tablet.

 

[mrklaw]

Ha ha, G80 was not ready at PS3 launch. It's too hot, too hungry, and has limited quantity. Being ready doesn't mean "it exists". It means they need to make enough, runs cool and available cheaply.

Sony would have an even bigger problem on hand if they had included G80. They will be tied down by nVidia's business terms as well.



Cell is interesting in the sense that it delivers more with less. In PS3, it is limited by the memory size. That's why they had to juggle stuff around and work on sophisticated streaming system. And then it also needs to help out RSX, acting as a second GPU for some graphics tasks.

Given enough memory, Xenon + Xenos can't deliver fully what Cell could do. They are too specialized. At least we don't find them in a few supercomputers or clusters like Cell did. It takes later iterations of GPU to be able to match Cell performance.

I'd like to see some of the lessons learned from big PS3 games that properly used the CELL and how that might influence an 'ideal' gaming platform. Will the parallelism mean devs are better suited to multiple threads next gen? Will the use of CELL almost as a GPGPU at times mean the compute shaders get utilised in interesting ways?

And while a modern quad core processor might be faster than cell now, how would it compare to a theoretical modern cell? Eg take the silicon for a core i5, and how many SPEs could you squeeze in? Intel are already using half the silicon for integrated graphics rather than expanding CPU cores

 

[Nachtmaer]

Given the leaked specs so far, how doable would it actually be to emulate a PS3?

I was more or less able to run PS2 games on my C2D E6750 back in the day, and PCSX2 is just written by a small team of hobbyists who have to go by reverse engineering, I assume. I know this comparison doesn't work all too well, but if they can make it work, what can Sony do when they know all the in and outs of the used architectures?

 

[thuway]

Someone do a clean up in this thread, I have zero idea why we are talking about PS3/Xbox 360 stregnths and weaknesses. Lets get back on track.

 

[dragonelite]

Someone do a clean up in this thread, I have zero idea why we are talking about PS3/Xbox 360 stregnths and weaknesses. Lets get back on track.

Nothing to talk about.

 

[BruiserBear]

Given the leaked specs so far, how doable would it actually be to emulate a PS3?

I was more or less able to run PS2 games on my C2D E6750 back in the day, and PCSX2 is just written by a small team of hobbyists who have to go by reverse engineering, I assume. I know this comparison doesn't work all too well, but if they can make it work, what can Sony do when they know all the in and outs of the used architectures?

Anything is doable. It's just a question of how badly Sony wants to make it happen. If they want to invest a lot of time and money, they can get it done. But I have a feeling it's going to be very hard to do.

On the one hand I can't imagine them launching the PS4 without backwards compatibility, because it immediately gives their competition and upper hand on them (the next Xbox will be fully backwards compatible), and it creates ill will with your PS3 customers who bought lots of downloadable games, and still want to play some of the PS3's best games going forward, and even track down trophies in games that are forever saved on their trophy profile.

But on the other hand, Sony sometimes makes some really poor calculations, and seem out of touch with the current day realities. Case in point, I have the feeling right now that they're not shipping the PS4 in 2013, and I think that would be a big mistake.

We're really not going to know answers to those questions though until at least next Spring.

 

[phosphor112]

Guys you're not going to get full BC on a $99 device sold at launch that has the Cell and RSX on it (LOL) as well as the PS3 memory that hooks up through a USB port and is somehow cooled properly (without die shrinks, btw - I think they've stopped investing in those for PS3 as well) =\

You're basically asking for a small cheap USB device that is a PS3 that happens to work through a USB port, and it's ... well I personally think it's not even remotely feasible.

What do you guys think one of the things Sony is doing with their Gakai purchase is? I'm sure legacy playback will be included in any prospective subscription model.

Gakai? No download demos (..you know what they do now) and instant access to PS home from ANY device. That's what I think. I think setting up servers to play PS3 games as legacy support would be extremely costly to them.

 

[dr. apocalipsis]

Yeah, it's frustrating to see him post so much misinformation. For what it's worth, in my experience, the SPEs are quite fast - faster than a hardware thread on Xenon. This is without highly optimizing the SPE code, too...just recompiling the C++ code, with some additional code to DMA the data to be processed in and out. In my case performance seemed comparable to my PC, which has some Core based Xeon processor (not sure exactly which model, but it is quadcore with hyperthreading...)

I've seen programmers make the same arguments that he is making before they actually write code for the Cell...until they actually start using it, then they change their tune once they see how fast it can be. Yes, it can be a pain in the ass to package your data into smaller chunks, but the funny thing is that doing the work usually also improves performance on more conventional architectures (since stuff will stay in cache better afterwards).

To be honest, I had so much fun in this thread.

A bunch of guys attack me because I said something as obvious as Cell is not a suitable console CPU, it was a mistake on PS3, and it have no place on PS4. Then one of those guys, who said I have no idea, creates an USB MegaPS3X. Another guy, who wished me to be banned, just correct him, stating such device would need embebed RAM because of the USB latencies. And all of this for less than 99 bucks. A PS3 working with a 35 MB/s port, powered by 5.5v, wich is unable to power up some 7200RPM hard drives by itself. Would it feed video through USB port? HDMI included? Mushroom form factor?

Then two other guys tap in the shoulder themselves saying everytime they prove me wrong, I change subjet. At certain point, my abs were hurting.

PS2 chips on PS3 were are huge mistake, and you are asking to do the same on PS4. Emulate PS3 is not feasible with current consumer technology, but some other guy ask to emulate Cell half hardware with a crippled Cell, and half software via future PS4 CPU. No one did such thing before as emulate a CPU using 2 differents CPUs, with different architecture to make it even worst. I'm not going to talk about the horsepower needed, just think about the timmings and memory resources.

Guys, I came here to talk about technology. I noticed already it's the wrong place. Another guy have just said Cell is faster than a post nehalem, smt ready, Xeon. It's just hilarious. You have to realize SPU's are been in use since day one in most of the games and stop that about sleeping power. Don't you read devs diaries? Instead of talk about crappy ports, read how devs actually squeeze cell for his games. I'm not talking about 1st party games, but third party like Hedgehog engine:

http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/series/3dcg/20090410_110682.html

Just stop it already. Stop this fanboy shit and talk about the damm subject, ok? I will not reply another attack from now on.

And while a modern quad core processor might be faster than cell now, how would it compare to a theoretical modern cell? Eg take the silicon for a core i5, and how many SPEs could you squeeze in? Intel are already using half the silicon for integrated graphics rather than expanding CPU cores

If you are intersted, Intel claims HD4000 at Ivy Bridge is capable of 294,4 GFLOPS. AMD promised 736 Gflops for Trinity's 7660D.

Oh, btw, I think Gakai (remake ports aside) is a sweet idea to give some sort of access to PS3 catalogue on PS4 instead of unprofitable hardware. PSN downloable tittles are not a problem since they can recompile them with just two clicks, or even use other platforms executable. Thing is, I have to see yet MS or Sony not trying to charge you again for the same games at their new consoles.

 

[segarr]

Given enough memory, Xenon + Xenos can't deliver fully what Cell could do. They are too specialized. At least we don't find them in a few supercomputers or clusters like Cell did. It takes later iterations of GPU to be able to match Cell performance.

What does this mean? A Cell outmatches a Xenon and Xenos combined?

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

To be honest, I had so much fun in this thread.

A bunch of guys attack me because I said something as obvious as Cell is not a suitable console CPU, it was a mistake on PS3, and it have no place on PS4.

No i believe it started when you said things like Xenon was 3-4x as powerful as Cell.

Glad you enjoyed the thread though. . I guess it did become interesting while we have no leaks, if not way off topic.

 

[AgentP]

I agree with most of dr. apocalipsis's content, but his delivery and attitude are pretty bad.

Can't we all just get along?

 

[dr. apocalipsis]

No i believe it started when you said things like Xenon was 3-4x as powerful as Cell.

I said Xenos is as stronger at serial processing as Cell is at Parallel computing, wich is true.

My point was to show how weak Cell is at traditional CPU requirements, and why you need something stronger for PS4, not to start a console war.

And that is, of course, why I do not agree at Cell>>>Xenon, because it's not true.

 

[systemfehler]

TL;DR:

CELL: BAD
STEAMROLLER: BAD
IPC: GOOD
DIE Size/Performance: GOOD
Sonic fanart: BAD
My english: WORSE

PS3, 2006: What would be the Cell alternative assuming RSX stays the same?
PS4, 2014: Cell 2, Steamroller APU, Intel, Nvidia are most likeley out of the question what is your desired CPU?

Maybe it is your passion about the (Cell) subject or the language barrier (which I share) but I personally don't see that many options for either 2006 or 2014. In 2006 Cell did a pretty good job with the rather weak RSX to keep up if I compare games and consoles in 2012. I doubt that developers hold back on the 360 just so that the PS3 and Cell don't look bad. So with the CPU becoming (in my eyes at least) more and more neglible I don't see why a upgraded Cell + a good GPU couldn't be a good option. Maybe that would even a big step towards backwards compatibility.

 

[specialguy]

Given the leaked specs so far, how doable would it actually be to emulate a PS3?

Well, it would likely be somewhat expensive. MS had to run a team that did the 360's backwards compatibility, and paying people isnt cheap, in fact it's the greatest business expense.

Maybe you run the numbers and it's cheaper than hardware BC, but I'm not even sure if that.

And another factor is, they would rather just charge you for BC in some fashion or another, which Sony already does, and is probably the whole reason for the Gakai acquisition. So it's not just cost, it's the cost of giving up a potential revenue stream on top of that.

 

[specialguy]

Steamroller isn't bad. Just because it lags 10% behind Intel doesn't mean it isn't 100% better than Cell. That's a forest/trees issue.

Also, it doesnt exist yet. Bulldozer is current, Piledriver is soon and actually looks to be decent (+15% IPC on Bulldozer), Steamroller is another iteration improvement on top of Piledriver.

 

[dr. apocalipsis]

There is no point in BC at current point of software development.

It's true there is a buch of games coded at metal level at PS3, unlike omnipresent DX layer at 360. But RSX still a current technology DX/OpenGL GPU and Cell still runs PPC code.

I mean, it maybe not be as easy as 'throw in' as with future Xbox, but recompile PS3 games for PS4 should be easier than port PS2 games.

As for Steamroller, it's not only too much x86 cores for a gaming device. It's about low IPC/ high frecuencies. Current AMD processors go over 125W TDP with double power consumption than Intel for a given task. It's not just 10% less performance than Intel. In a console device most of the transistor would be there just doing nothing but eat power and providing more heat.

It's true, anyway, than 2 modules/4 threads could do the job with a good DX11 GPU.

I think Intel is just too cocky with their license policy. They could do tons (more) of money.

 

[Rolf NB]

There is no point in BC at current point of software development.

Here are four:
1)Instant game library; corollaries: instant catalog revenue, instant justification for purchase, instant reaffirmation that buying PS3 software is still "safe".
2)Upgrader waterfall effect. Release millions of used PS3s at super-low prices into the market. Nice back-end boost for PS3 software sales.
3)Ability to upsell potential new PS3 purchasers to PS4 ("It does everything the older thing does, and extra stuff on top!")
4)Avoids messing up developers with in-progress projects ("We're one year behind original schedule, does it even make sense anymore to finish this? Should we switch target platforms?")

Basically, enter Japan sales, the land where downloads just don't sell, and look at what the 3DS did to the NDS (hint: murder). Then compare it to what the Vita did to the PSP (hint: nothing).
The difference? Usable BC.

Alternatively, look back at the PS1=>PS2 transition.

 

[KageMaru]

And that is, of course, why I do not agree at Cell>>>Xenon, because it's not true.

I could have sworn you agreed that Cell>>>Xenon earlier in this thread.

It's true there is a buch of games coded at metal level at PS3, unlike omnipresent DX layer at 360.

This is not true. Both games allow devs access to the metal, but both also have a thin layered API.

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

Here are four:
1)Instant game library; corollaries: instant catalog revenue, instant justification for purchase, instant reaffirmation that buying PS3 software is still "safe".
2)Upgrader waterfall effect. Release millions of used PS3s at super-low prices into the market. Nice back-end boost for PS3 software sales.
3)Ability to upsell potential new PS3 purchasers to PS4 ("It does everything the older thing does, and extra stuff on top!")
4)Avoids messing up developers with in-progress projects ("We're one year behind original schedule, does it even make sense anymore to finish this? Should we switch target platforms?")

Basically, enter Japan sales, the land where downloads just don't sell, and look at what the 3DS did to the NDS (hint: murder). Then compare it to what the Vita did to the PSP (hint: nothing).
The difference? Usable BC.

Alternatively, look back at the PS1=>PS2 transition.

Vita isn't really BC with PSP as it doesnt play UMD's. You have to re purchase your PSP games and download them. Maybe the reason why Vita hasn't killed PSP is cause it hasnt taken off yet.

PS3 loss full BC about a year in. Emulation on certain models came at that time, but didnt stay around for long. PS2 was far superior to playing PS2 games than the 80gb half emulation PS3s. Then BC was phased off completely less than 3 years in. No one really cared beside a few people on online forums. Yet PS2 still sells today.

I really dont know if BC is as important as some people say, and I personally would rather have Sony devote time and resources to increasing PS4 BOM and building a more powerful system for PS4 games. BC is a luxury, nothing more.

 

[dr. apocalipsis]

This is not true. Both games allow devs access to the metal, but both also have a thin layered API.

AFAIK MS do not let programmers bypass DX. Can you provide me some more info, please?

 

[CLEEK]

As has been mentioned, BC in previous gens is a wholly different beast that BC is in the upcoming console gen.

In previous gens, it's been debatable how much impact BC, or lack of it, effects the sales of new consoles, or drives / reduces sales of previous gen games. And how many new consoles user actually used BC.

But that is a moot point in the digital download age. Now there the expectation that your PSN account (and associated games) will be transferable, due to the precedents set with other devices, including other games consoles (Vita, 3DS, Wii U). Imagine if your iTunes library didn't work if you bought an new PC, or your old apps didn't work when you upgraded your phone to a latter model. Users would think twice before buying digitally and think twice about upgrading. It would be a lose/lose situation for both vendors and consumers.

Not only that, but Sony would be losing a significant revenue stream from PS3 PSN sales. If the PS4 has no BC for PS3 games, then the entire PS3 library on PSN will steadily see sales decline. It is in Sony's financial interest to allow for BC so they can continue selling PSN software to new console owners.

My PSN library is huge. 50+ PS3 games, 30+ PSone games, a bunch of PS2 Classics, SNK and Minis. If the PS4 come out and only PSone and Minis work, I would really have to justify making the switch to the new console, and would rarely feel motivated to buy digital games from Sony. The same goes for the next Xbox. If I can't play my XBLA library - which is far bigger and gets significantly more usages that my physical library - I doubt I'll be buying the Xbox3.

 

[phosphor112]

As has been mentioned, BC in previous gens is a wholly different beast that BC is in the upcoming console gen.

*snip*

I've been saying this from the get go. DD backwards compatibility is important. It not only is good to attract users in upgrading (as I hope to do) but completely dropping a massive library that has zero physical publishing costs is crazy for all parties involved. I know IF PS4 does not have BC, I would no longer buy PS3 PSN games. At all. I try playing PS2 games on my PS2 and just having to switch devices and grab a different controller is annoying in itself.