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Is Sony's corporate culture in the right place to ensure PS4 is a success?
- Thread starter DeaconKnowledge
- Start date
bigtroyjon
Member
Sony can't afford to subsidize hardware and MS can. If MS wants to come in at a lower price, not much SCE can do, especially considering Kaz's stated goal of a 10% operating margin for the gaming unit.
Gran Turismo is nowhere near Halo numbers, you get one game every five years from the series and that one sells well, nothing like the Halo franchise has sold. Killzone and Infamous 2 should be about double the sales for each game to be a healthy first party title. Infamous 2 sold terribly, 1.28 million copies. A million under the first Infamous, encouraging sign for that franchise. The first LBP sold well but LBP2 sold half as many copies as the first game. Not going to be a long term franchise for the PS4 with a decline like that after a full 3 year buildup. And you are overlooking the abysmal failures of Starhawk, MAG, Resistance 3 and Twisted Metal recently. Who knows if Uncharted will be given to another developer for the PS4 launch, but if UC3 is anything to go by Naughty Dog is ready to move on from it. And lets not forget the big holiday game they managed to scrounge up this year is Playstation All-Stars. Sony's first party has been struggling the last couple of years and the sales numbers back it up. Maybe Beyond and Last of Us will be bright spots, but that remains to be seen.
Basically, as someone who bought a PS3 purely to play Sony exclusives I am not encouraged by their game development going into the next gen.
Only 2 decent IPs? Are you talking about quality? If that's the case the what even is the point in saying it as it's extremely subjective. If you are talking sales then you are flat out wrong as shown in other posts in this thread.
You also laud Sony's HW sales despite the fact they are still behind the 360 in WW sales to date (they have the disadvantages you list but other advantages that you don't).
gundamkyoukai
Member
I would like to see the post with the sales numbers and please no Vg charts .
The problem i have with people is they seem to think Sony IPs can't match MS own which is wrong .
Still MS is smart while Sony is stupid MS big IPs get a game every 2 years but for Sony that only happen with UC .
Which is something that needs to change next gen and yes i know Halo is bigger than any Sony IP thanks to GT drop in sales .
And Sony hasn't come up with one to match Halo. Like someone else already mentioned, Sony has been able to get out one GT game this gen to Halo's four. They've allowed that IP to languish.
Pretty much this.
In my opinion, Sony should give their teams free reign to do something really new on the PS4 - something that could hopefully define the next console generation as different from this one. That's typically what makes system sellers and phenomenon franchises. Halo was one of the franchises that defined the last console generation because it got out there first with an FPS in a way console gamers hadn't seen before. Gears sort of did the same thing on the 360 for third person shooters and now a whole generation of shooters take after it.
I don't remember anyone saying everything's like Uncharted now since E3. I haven't seen anything else that looks like it's trying to imitate that franchise. Even Naughty Dog admitted that UC's somewhat "dark" tone compared to Jak and Crash was something Sony demanded because they saw that console games were trending towards darker shooters.
thehypocrite
Member
You know looking at this thread just enforces my opinion that their recent history doesn't matter. Look at their success with the PS1? was there something in their culture as a gaming company that would be conducive to success? No. After their success with the PS1 they created the PS2 and it was a success as well, here we can all agree that was a likely scenario. However coming out of their greatest success they follow it up with the PS3. This was by far their greatest fumble. So looking at this I'll say their corporate culture allowed them to have 2 victories and 1 crushing defeat. I'll say that culture has little to do with success. What matters are the decisions they make, corporate culture notwhistanding. They were able to do the critical ones right with the PS1 and PS2 but failed with the PS3.
I do think they are in a better position to regain their success with the PS4, than at the middle of the generation. They've been improving on the online with PSN+ and the features of the store. Playstation Mobile is a good initative, working closely with 3rd party studios in 2nd party deals, the Vita even though it hasn't taken off, didn't crippled them with R & D cost a la PS3, and they closed several underperforming studios.
Does this mean they'll succeed? no, but I'll be exciting to see how it will unfold.
I do think they are in a better position to regain their success with the PS4, than at the middle of the generation. They've been improving on the online with PSN+ and the features of the store. Playstation Mobile is a good initative, working closely with 3rd party studios in 2nd party deals, the Vita even though it hasn't taken off, didn't crippled them with R & D cost a la PS3, and they closed several underperforming studios.
Does this mean they'll succeed? no, but I'll be exciting to see how it will unfold.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Oh i agree Sony did crap with GT IP which something that need to change next gen .
They take to long to bring out sequels to there big IPs expect UC while MS does not .
Still MS had not made any big or semi big IP this gen at all .
Well you don't read many threads on GAF \ gaming boards there was talk about in the Tomb raider thread , in the start wars 1313 thread and few places more .
Ill leave this right here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQyGu4EqZsU
Also Ironically the new tomb raider has been getting flack for taking a "cinematic" route like uncharted
Personally I don't think Sony in the position to be the "leader". They made way to many mistakes and have no breathing room to try for something radical
Chuck Norris
Banned
Gran Turismo regularly sells over 10 million. You are right it's not as frequent as Halo, but then, Halo has been selling less since moving to a more frequent release schedule and losing its long legs. Again, Halo is a measure of phenomenal success, not of success itself. You don't need to sell Halo numbers to have a successful title. Suggesting that 2 million isn't good enough for example is ridiculous. If 4 million on one console was the entry point for what is considered a success, you could count the number of currently successful franchises on your hands
Those games never looked like being monster hits. Does that mean Sony should only ever commission titles that are huge budget blockbusters? The aim of those games was to make back the small devlopment budget and then bank on the rest. You have a very fallacious way of thinking where you seem to assume that anything not fitting into the blockbuster category is a failure.
If UC3 is anything to go by? What is that even supposed to mean?
thehypocrite
Member
I think they'll be better positioned to extract more of the IP they established on the PS3 with the PS4. We have to admit that Sony relied too heavily on 3rd party software with the PS2 and PS1, it was only because Nintendo and Msft took control of these commanding positions that they were forced to invest heavily in 1st party software that could impact the market significantly, instead of just filling a niche in the software catalog as before. Next gen expect them to have a better handle on 1st party studios, as they'll have to perform up to the standards set by ND.
gundamkyoukai
Member
I think so also but Sony really need to maximize there IPs for PS4 in the first 2 years they should be a LBP , GOW , UC , GT , Killzone LOU ( if it sell great ) sequels.
Along with making big new IP during the first 2 years of the system life.
OldJadedGamer
Banned
GT has been selling less and less with each new version. The majority of sales are in Europe now. It has lost most of its worldwide appeal. The last version didn't even pass 1 million in Japan.
Melchiah
Member
Smaller userbase, smaller sales. Going by GT4 and GT5 figures, it's basically 1 million games per 10 million platform owners.
GT has always sold more in Europe.
http://www.polyphony.co.jp/english/list.html
Chuck Norris
Banned
As I said before, I think they are positioning themselves for that. Polyphony have surely been working on a new GT for awhile, and it would be a complete misstep if it were a PS3 game instead of an early PS4 game. SSM is likely making a new IP for PS4 and Guerrilla has two projects in the pipeline and at least one of them is next gen. I'd anticipate that the Uncharted team moved on to PS4 once UC3 was done. Media Molecule may have a new IP, but I'm expecting that for PS3. As for LittleBigPlanet, Tarsier seems to have taken the reins on that and the Vita game seems to be the best yet. They might work on the next one for PS4 as MM have moved on.
Maybe not a God of War though seeing as the next one is due out soon.
Chuck Norris
Banned
And the majority of Halos sales are in America, we don't hold that against it though now do we?
OldJadedGamer
Banned
Point is that GT used to sell well worldwide but the series is on a decline compared to previous sales of GT titles. Halo keeps selling the same to the same regions.
Going from GT3 to GT4 was an increase of userbase but sales were down.
On UC3: I just beat it the other night, I was not very impressed by it. Nowhere near as good as UC2. Controls, story and gameplay all seemed worse than UC2. The big set pieces were nowhere near as entertaining as UC2. From listening to podcasts and talking to my friends I don't think I am alone in feeling that way either. Not a bad game by any means, but nowhere close to sequel we should have gotten from UC2.
And yes a game selling 2 million copies being a failure is insane, but its the reality of AAA HD development. Take these quotes about Dead Space 3 and Darksiders 2 as proof of that.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=478566
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=484068
Why do you think so many studios have gone to multiplatform development? Do you really think Starhawk made back its dev budget at 170k copies or Resitance 3 at 1.21 million? Let alone being games that sell consoles? Which is the purpose of first party games.
We are talking about Sony first party games in the context of the PS4. You don't sell new hardware with low budget titles. You do it with huge budget blockbusters and I don't know what AAA game experience Sony 1st party is capable of making for the PS4 right now. Gran Turismo is years away, Naughty Dog seems done with Uncharted. So do you trust a new developer on the series to make another system selling Uncharted game at launch? That is why It is so crazy to me they are using Last of Us and Beyond as post holiday games instead of bumping them to the PS4. It sure looks like they are going to launch after the Durango so third party's aren't going to be the big selling point for the system. The launch of the PS4 is all on Sony first party games making system sellers and that worries me.
Melchiah
Member
Completely the opposite in Europe. USA ≠ world.
gundamkyoukai
Member
True is GT3 sales were so big in NA thanks to it being bundle like crazy .
It's sales were never so big in NA as you can see from the rest .
You have to remember that if a game is first party is has to sell less to make up it's budget because they don't have to pay the systems holder .
So you don't need the same sales numbers to break even for 1st party .
Sony has beef up there first party ND now has 2 teams you can bet 1 is working on a UC game same for SSM and Guerrilla .
GT5 came out in 2010 and we know PD is working on GT6 and since it seem not to be a PS3 game i expect it to come out early for PS4 like GT3 did .
Sony has fair amount of teams that have been quite so chances are they working on PS4 games.
OldJadedGamer
Banned
I was going by the worldwide numbers you posted.
Melchiah
Member
They don't tell the whole truth though. The sales went down from GT3 to GT4 in USA and Japan, but increased in Europe.
Chuck Norris
Banned
Uncharted 3 was rushed out the door because ND set a release date early. They said they regret that, in the end it was not as polished as they would have liked. Uncharted 2 is amongst the most critically acclaimed games of all time. Slamming them for not hitting that high bar every time is a bit unfair. Its still a AAA game, it scored well and sold great. No Gears or Halo game has hit the high bar of their initial entry either, but I don't see you mentioning that.
Dead Space is just an example of mismanagement. You think every game is the equivalent of that where they need to hit 5 million to break even? That's 250 - 300 million in revenue. Net after retailer cuts and marketing budget, youd imagine they are needing to make at least 100 million to cover the development budget. You think that is normal? You think that is reflective of Starhawk or Twisted Metal? Starbox and Eat Sleep play are both small indie 20 or so man teams. Starbox is now going into iOS development, that is how small they are. I don't know if they made their money back, but it wouldn't be hard to. Resistance is in a different category, but Insomniac can only blame themselves for turning off gamers after the disaster that was Resistance 2.
No we are talking about PS3 games in the context of PS3. Sony has more freedom to experiment with lower budget titles at the end of a generation than they wold at the start. At the start of next gen, all priorities will be funneled into their big projects, the games they expect to leave a mark. It's the same with Microsoft, experimenting with Kinect games and low budget stuff that they would not have commissioned at the start of the gen.
Yes the next GT is years away, so is next gen, Naughty Dog is not done with Uncharted. Where on Earth do you get that? Naughty dog themselves said that gamers should not consider the series to be a trilogy. And they have expanded to two teams so they can handle new IPs while making Uncharted too.
OldJadedGamer
Banned
You are just agreeing with me. The game used to have worldwide appeal that has been declining with each new version since GT3 where as Europe is the region proping up the games sales currently.
Chuck Norris
Banned
So what?
Barkley's Justice
Member
Lot of people citing "Sony vs MS" first party titles. But where MS has really had the advantage are the exclusive games they line up with XBLA. And true: A Shadow Complex may not match up 1:1 with a "AA" Sony first party title in sales, but a Shadow Complex, plus a Fez, plus a Trials plus etc etc really makes a dent over the course of a generation, if only in mind share and perception. And Sony has definitely had its share of top notch PSN exclusives (Journey, Wipeout, Pixel Junk). But in the end MS in my opinion dominated. I mean, they are relentless about signing amazing, exclusive XBLA content. And that's a massive factor. Especially for someone like me, tired of the same ole, same ole "AAA" games. The mini indie PSN & XBLA games, with their concentrated gameplay experiences, smaller price tags, shorter/adult-friendly completion times feels more "next-gen" to me than Sequel of the Financial Quarter. The point being, MS has in my opinion been saving their big guns and development money over the past 2 or so years on next-gen development. If that's true or not, as long as they continue swooping up exclusive XBLA content with the same veracity as they have, that's a major factoring difference between the 2 companies.
Melchiah
Member
360/Forza might have something to do with the sales decrease in NA, rather than the decline of the GT franchise's popularity in itself.
Three. Tourist Trophy was kind of a stinker, but GT5P and GT5 could probably have been released at GT5 and GT6 without anyone batting an eye; certainly, the sales were there.
Lion Heart
Banned
Who cares if a product sees a decrease in sales in certain regions when it sees stability in its main region plus growth. The other two regions are finicky at best and the genre as a whole has seen a decline so you can't put that all on GT. Lets not treat one game unfairly and the other a free pass.
Have you seen Forza US sales? Its safe to say thats factually wrong.
Have you seen Forza US sales? Its safe to say thats factually wrong.
Melchiah
Member
No, I haven't, that's why I used the word 'might'.
In Europe, Sony still seems to be ruler of the consoles. In my country for example (Belgium), people play PS3 way more than Wii & Xbox 360. I feel like Sony's culture and games fit more with the European market at times, how weird that might sound. People have been choosing Sony ever since the PS1 here. We hardly see any Xbox commercials either.
Microsoft totally crushed Sony in America though, that's for sure.
Microsoft totally crushed Sony in America though, that's for sure.
Agent X
Gold Member
Well, I think staticneuron did an excellent job of expanding on the point I made.
Right on. I don't think I could say it much better.
But anyway, Green Slime, to address your last sentence: It's not that I think Naughty Dog is incapable of creating great handheld games. The issue (which applies to all developers) is that their resources are finite.
We know Naughty Dog does awesome work on PS3. For Naughty Dog to tackle Vita game development would mean subtracting some portion of their resources (such as manpower) away from PS3. I think they could churn out an awesome game for Vita--but I wouldn't want to yank them off of the platform where they are already considered "best in class".
Let Naughty Dog continue to apply their skills on the system where they are both comfortable and highly proficient. Sony doesn't need to reassign them to Vita--they already have other development studios that are geared towards Vita development.
AgentChris
Member
Instead of buying more 1st party studios, SCE should add more teams within their top studios. Four teams at Naughty Dog; Uncharted team, The Last of Us team, PSV team and new IP team.
Do they match, though? GT for example, great sales but that is across 3 generations. If we are only talking about this gen then would the total sales of GT exceed that of the Forza games that have been released?
I'm not saying that Sony's IPs haven't sold well. GT5 has sold something like 7 million, right? Those are great sales. Uncharted is also a great selling series and it doesn't stop at those two games.
I just found meta4's comments to be hard to take seriously.
Digital-Hero
Member
I'm in America and I'll support Sony until the end. They have more of a legacy for me, along with Nintendo.
Nightstick11
Banned
I think too many people are handwaving away just how bad Sony's situation is. Nintendo has Sony in a position where the PS4 has to be a Wii-level success. The damage that PS3 and Vita has done to Sony's gaming division isn't something to ignore. For one, get rid of that suicidal loss-leader model. Just doesn't work. Also, Sony, your main competition is Nintendo, not Microsoft. How they just ceded Japan to Nintendo with hardly a peep is just unacceptable.
For me, it all boils down to who has the games that I enjoy playing the most. Sony has maintained that crown for three gens in a row for me, so I'm someone looking forward to what they bring to the table with PS4 or whatever they end up calling it.
I typically buy all of the consoles, for one game or another, but Sony typically has the franchises that appeal most to me, so if they stick with that trend, I know I'll buy more of their software than the others.
I typically buy all of the consoles, for one game or another, but Sony typically has the franchises that appeal most to me, so if they stick with that trend, I know I'll buy more of their software than the others.
I must be an outlier to this whole argument. I've played and owned all systems this gen, and have had a significant amount of time with generations prior. I still feel the same thing when I play a Sony console as opposed to a Microsoft or Nintendo one. I feel like I am getting an experience that I can thoroughly enjoy either by myself or with friends.
When I play a Wii game, the general situation feels like I need to have friends with me. Not online or anything, just actual friends there playing alongside me or just providing company.
When I play an Xbox game, I feel like I need to be connected and always talking to somebody. Things just seem more competitive. I've played single player, but more often than not I get invited into a group by my friends who are on. What am I supposed to say? Of course I accept, but then I have to listen to them while trying to enjoy my game.
It's just completely different when I play my PS3. I actually feel like I can sit down and enjoy my game. I dedicate time and effort, and fully immerse myself in the world. If I want to play with my friends, they can just send me an invite to play a game with them and I make the decision. I always feel like it is simpler to just decline on the PS3. It's like they are already doing something, but just seeing if you want to tag along. As opposed to committing your night to talking with them.
I have to say, I really only get excited for a very select few games on other consoles anymore. I have the basics for Xbox and Wii, but my PS3 library continues to grow passed the games everyone should have. I go out on limbs and buy games that look interesting without worrying that it might be bad and my friends might chastise me for playing it. It's just a nice experience that I can choose to share or not.
I can't speak to handhelds, seeing as how I've never owned a DS, but my PSP is still my go to time waster when I just feel like lounging about and not leaving my bed.
I suppose what I'm saying is just that Sony always seems to cater to the kind of gamer I am. I never feel forced to do anything because somebody else is. I can just enjoy my games however much I want, and still have the option of having friends over to play with or just joining them for a match. Easy simple stuff.
I expect to buy a Vita very soon, and look forward to several playstation exclusives that are coming out. I just hope Sony can keep giving me the enjoyment it does. And now with PS+ and all the free games I'm getting, I don't think I'll have a need for any other new system next gen.
When I play a Wii game, the general situation feels like I need to have friends with me. Not online or anything, just actual friends there playing alongside me or just providing company.
When I play an Xbox game, I feel like I need to be connected and always talking to somebody. Things just seem more competitive. I've played single player, but more often than not I get invited into a group by my friends who are on. What am I supposed to say? Of course I accept, but then I have to listen to them while trying to enjoy my game.
It's just completely different when I play my PS3. I actually feel like I can sit down and enjoy my game. I dedicate time and effort, and fully immerse myself in the world. If I want to play with my friends, they can just send me an invite to play a game with them and I make the decision. I always feel like it is simpler to just decline on the PS3. It's like they are already doing something, but just seeing if you want to tag along. As opposed to committing your night to talking with them.
I have to say, I really only get excited for a very select few games on other consoles anymore. I have the basics for Xbox and Wii, but my PS3 library continues to grow passed the games everyone should have. I go out on limbs and buy games that look interesting without worrying that it might be bad and my friends might chastise me for playing it. It's just a nice experience that I can choose to share or not.
I can't speak to handhelds, seeing as how I've never owned a DS, but my PSP is still my go to time waster when I just feel like lounging about and not leaving my bed.
I suppose what I'm saying is just that Sony always seems to cater to the kind of gamer I am. I never feel forced to do anything because somebody else is. I can just enjoy my games however much I want, and still have the option of having friends over to play with or just joining them for a match. Easy simple stuff.
I expect to buy a Vita very soon, and look forward to several playstation exclusives that are coming out. I just hope Sony can keep giving me the enjoyment it does. And now with PS+ and all the free games I'm getting, I don't think I'll have a need for any other new system next gen.
Chuck Norris
Banned
I don't think it works that way. Maybe one day Naughty Dog could have four teams but that should be up to them. I believe part of the reason Naughty Dog expanded is because they were attracting some of the best talent in the industry but there is only so much room in one team for that. It was more a natural expansion and a way of keeping talent
Agressively expanding could ruin the dynamics they have going for them
What they should do is see what works at Naughty Dog and harvest that dynamic at other studios
Start up companies also offer the ability to bring fresh innovative ideas; see Media Molecule or thatgamescompany. Sony should keep working with new talent.
the psp floundered outside of japan when focus turned to save the ps3. now it seems they're ignoring the vita, and that might be because they actually are preparing to support the ps4 pretty hard... or it might mean they haven't really figured out what they needed to do since 2004 or so.
i don't see them reclaiming the market on the backs of movie-games. that was how you did it from 1993-2002. they're already moving into the multiplayer extravaganza scene, at least. they won't be far behind microsoft in terms of content when next gen gets rolling now that pretty much all their games aren't only single-player things.
i don't see them reclaiming the market on the backs of movie-games. that was how you did it from 1993-2002. they're already moving into the multiplayer extravaganza scene, at least. they won't be far behind microsoft in terms of content when next gen gets rolling now that pretty much all their games aren't only single-player things.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
You know, not the whole money war chest of MS will be under Xbox division´s command you know. Even if MS can afford it, do you really think that MS would want to lose so much money in the beginning? It´s like Xbox division has infinite amount of money to make these loses.
And GT4 sold more GT2. Don´t be so obtuse. GT3 sold so much because it was heavily bundled. GT5 is still selling in Europe.
Chuck Norris
Banned
Eh? PS3 is at almost 9 million in Japan and should finish the gen just short of Wii's sales, and has pretty much had the market over Wii for a couple years now. There is room for improvement definitely, but hardly the picture you paint. SCEJ definitely needs to up their game. I don't have much faith in them though. As for Vita, they can't really concede a market they never had.
The loss-leader model works. It is really the only model they can use. Even Nintendo is coming into its new system taking losses. Wii will stand out in gaming history as the exception, not the norm. You need to take losses, in order to establish a competitive advantage.The problem isn't with the model, it worked well for PSone and PS2. It worked for Xbox 360. Sony's Blu Ray trojan horse and over development meant that PS3 would bleed them much worse than necessary and they never really got going.
iamshadowlark
Banned
huh?
bigtroyjon
Member
Microsoft has a significant long term revenue stream in Xbox Live Gold that allows them to make up losses over time on early adopters. Those early adopters are the type to drive the industry early in the gen, so getting them is key to financial success for these companies. I have no doubt they will be willing to eat money to get that critical early marketshare.
They are in full hog with Xbox now, seeing as how it is critically engrained in Windows 8 and a key part of the future of the Microsoft ecosystem. The company as a whole will be doing what it takes to make sure Xbox is a success.
Glorified G
Member
This was my favorite part:
I'm sure MS is kicking themselves for tripling their userbase & reigning in all that revenue through xbox live by following "that suicidal loss-leader model."
Armchair analysts critiquing situations they have no expertise on are hilarious.
Sure, well not want, but are willing to. They gave away mp and crushed Winamp. They bundled IE and crushed Netscape. And they lost billions starting up Xbox. Lost another few billion at the start of the generation and resorted to funding and publishing Japanese games (until they realized it was unnecssary). Microsoft is quite capable of handling short term losses for long term gains.
And on that note, I wonder also what paths MS will explore to try and avoid another split market. But that's perhaps a question for another thread.
More futile than unnecessary.
Really, really, really well put.
Reminds me of Apple in the 1990s once the suits & marketing took over.
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