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SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion

Prologue

Member
1. Open to interpretation. Either it is suggesting that Booker went back to his normal life or the cycle started again. You, the player, decides whether Anna is in the crib or not.

2. You've just found out you have a daughter who is an adult who can see across space time. How would you react?

Well he just remembered what he forgot. An apology would have been nice or something. Elize didn't show much of anything either, even though she knew before they even went through the door. You're about to kill your father, at least say something.


And why was that one developer mad? Because of how extreme comstock was after he got baptized?
 
Holy shit, what an ending. My mind is still reeling from what just happened. Holy shit!!!

The entire end sequence after the fight on the airship was breathtaking, mind blowing, jaw dropping, I can't think of any other words to describe it. The moment you realise you're in rapture was a real "Oh shit" moment for me. Jaw dropping stuff. The ending is still sinking in, but goddamn what an amazing end to a great game.
 

nbthedude

Member
I don't believe this scene is to be taken literally. It's obviously a symbolic representation of the baptism as it occurred in the possibility space. Liz is using her powers to undo every universe where Comstock was "born". Note the actual "time travel" representation of the scene, versus the scene where Booker drowns.

Maybe it is obvious to you, but I have no idea what means. What is a "symbolic representation" of ""the possibility of space"? Are you suggesting that the baptism drowning event never actually happened and that Elizabeth just employed magical powers to make everything better? That doesn't seem very satisfying at all.
 
Maybe it is obvious to you, but I have no idea what means. What is a "symbolic representation" of ""the possibility of space"? Are you suggesting that the baptism event drowning event never actually happened and that Elizabeth just employed magical powers to make everything better? That doesn't seem very satisfying at all.

This is what can happen when the progression of a narrative essentially hinges on "this or that type of magic only applies when the writers say so." If Infinite absolutely had to make the dimensional/time-travel central to the plot, I think the rules and limitations of it should've been far more constrictive.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Anybody ever read the book Kindred by Octavia Butler? The main character in the novel can time shift. She teleports from the antebellum south into the present day in one episode and part of her body phases into a wall. I think she loses an arm. It reminded me of this game.
 

Sorian

Banned
This annoyed me slightly. I was really looking forward to this scene, but once the Paris tear happened, I realised they completely reworked it.

No Elizabeth messing around in the shop wearing the mask. They did keep the dialogue though, so that was nice.

If it makes you feel better, technically, that scene happened. Just not in the reality we viewed.
 

Dr Dogg

Member
Anybody ever read the book Kindred by Octavia Butler? The main character in the novel can time shift. She teleports from the antebellum south into the present day in one episode and part of her body phases into a wall. I think she loses an arm. It reminded me of this game.

No but after reading a brief synopsis sounds quite interesting. Thanks, something to add to the required reading whilst musing over Infinite.
 

NAPK1NS

Member
The main menu becomes a heart wrench after you beat the game. After you've gone... after you've gone...

Liz is gone, but so is a really good game. It sucks forever that I need to wait so long for another Irrational Game. Infinite DLC now, plz.
 

Sorian

Banned
No, it didn't Elizabeth's used wishfullfillment/timegod abilities to metaphorically erase every instance of that scene from possible space time.

It did happen but then it was, effectively, deleted. Does that really mean it never happened now? According to space-time maybe it never happened, but it still did occur at some point. Doesn't make it less of an event just because the point is gone now.
 

Dr Dogg

Member
It did happen but then it was, effectively, deleted. Does that really mean it never happened now? According to space-time maybe it never happened, but it still did occur at some point. Doesn't make it less of an event just because the point is gone now.

Your point might have carry a bit more weight if you weren't still rocking the #TeamCG avatar.
Luvs you guys really <3.
 

Sorian

Banned
Your point might have carry a bit more weight if you weren't still rocking the #TeamCG avatar.
Luvs you guys really <3.

I promised I'd rock this for at least a month after I was proven correct or incorrect. If nothing else, I'm at least a man of my word :p
 

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
Kind of echoing what was said earlier, but I think the narrative element that bothers me the most is Booker's continuous refusal to accept the 'reality' of his situation as his tour through Columbia, seeing the tears/Luteces repeatedly throughout his progression of Columbia, and still believes that he's doing this all for some random debt collector.

I mean, he went so far as to carve the memory of his daughter into his hand, and then makes no mention of it all game. The only time it's brought up is the whole 'false prophet' imagery, IIRC. Same thing with Liz's finger when Comstock mentions it. Booker swears that he doesn't know, yet still sounds quite defensive about it, and then Liz states that he knows, he just can't remember. (He's also never heard of Columbia, but passes that by saying "I've been out of touch for a while". Possibly indicating his debts, sure, but to pass a floating futuristic city that made no real effort to be 'hidden' like Rapture was as something he didn't know about?)

I know that it's explained as his guilt/cognitive dissonance, along with the mental instability that warping into another world that already has a Booker (Comstock) that leads him to produce false memories, but such a staunch refusal to remember that male Lutece was the one who bought and later offered him a way to get Anna back, or that Comstock was the one who took his child, seems rather suspect from an actual narrative perspective, given that Booker is given a higher sense of purpose/identity as a human being compared to Jack from Bioshock.

I mean, it's explained in-game, sure, but since Booker is supposed to be a more fleshed out, non-blank slate character, and we're given way more information about his life and motivations through dialogue with Liz and Slate, it seems that much more out of place to have him take such mental gymnastics to not remember anything to the point of thinking his daughter was already dead.

Combine that with the speed/sudden pick up of narrative information at the end, and it leaves you as the player deciphering things more slowly than the new elements that are brought in, because you're still trying to understand Booker's 'true' set of memories.

Infinite took Bioshock's 'twist' brought on by the character's lack of knowledge of Fontaine's actions, and amped it up to the level of actually 'lying' to the player in terms of being given information straight from the avatar that represents our influence in the game's world.

Booker is the ultimate unreliable narrator, since he is one who we view/frame the story from. When combining that with the other 'new' information/injection of story elements such as the metaphysics at the end that aren't really given any sort of grounding or governing principles, or the 'sudden' confirmation of the father/daughter revelation that really isn't touched upon at all by Booker before the sudden whirlwind ending, it could definitely make for a 'what actually happened' dissonance by some viewers

I understand and can appreciate what Levine did, but I don't think the elements mesh together as well as he wanted them to.

Still an amazing narrative design decision for a game, though.
 

CrazyDude

Member
You pretty much answered your own question. The French and Russian Revolutions were very similar. Both were guided by a charismatic leader (figurehead) who vilified and rallied a very pissed off populace against a tyrannical, sometimes brutal regime whose ideals were entirely different to the people they were supposed to be representing. The parallels to Columbia and Rapture on that basis are obvious. This is High School stuff that shouldn't need to be explained to a player in a game. What is wrong with respecting a gamers intelligence for once?

Napoleon Bonaparte
, Vladimir Lenin, Atlas and Daisy Fitzroy. Tell me there aren't parallels there. The only unanswered question that I can think of is the identity of the figurehead, if there even was one that encouraged the uprising against Prophet Elizabeth. On that front, you have a ghost of a point.

Maximilien de Robespierre would be a better example, Napoleon brought stability to France even with war.
 
N

Noray

Unconfirmed Member
It saddens me that there are quite a few people here who just don't like the story/ending because it isn't palatable to their tastes (which is entirely fair) or because it isn't what they were expecting. It's so well done. Don't get hung up on the little details. Booker letting himself be drowned by all his daughters to attone for his cross-dimensional sins is a beautiful moment, damn it. So sad, tragic, poignant. And the game earns it so well by foreshadowing all of this stuff.

On another note, on my 2nd playthrough now, I'm pretty sure Lady Comstock is the same woman who gave birth to Anna in Booker's universe. For one thing, her name is A. Comstock (probably Annabelle, as hinted at by the undercover lady on the boardwalks and also Anna, named after her mother). It also explains why the gate to Comstock House recognizes Elizabeth, wrongly, as Lady Comstock - genetic likeness, not just the clothes. Similar to how the bathyspheres in Rapture can be used by Jack because he has a genetic likeness to Ryan. So she actually IS Liz's mother, just not in that particular dimension. And it explains why Liz looks kind of like her.

I still think the whole ghost mom plotline is by far the hokiest and handwaved portion of the story, but at least there's something to it.
 

Sorian

Banned
Kind of echoing what was said earlier, but I think the narrative element that bothers me the most is Booker's continuous refusal to accept the 'reality' of his situation as his tour through Columbia, seeing the tears/Luteces repeatedly throughout his progression of Columbia, and still believes that he's doing this all for some random debt collector.

I mean, he went so far as to carve the memory of his daughter into his hand, and then makes no mention of it all game. The only time it's brought up is the whole 'false prophet' imagery, IIRC. Same thing with Liz's finger when Comstock mentions it. Booker swears that he doesn't know, yet still sounds quite defensive about it, and then Liz states that he knows, he just can't remember. (He's also never heard of Columbia, but passes that by saying "I've been out of touch for a while". Possibly indicating his debts, sure, but to pass a floating futuristic city that made no real effort to be 'hidden' like Rapture was as something he didn't know about?)

I know that it's explained as his guilt/cognitive dissonance, along with the mental instability that warping into another world that already has a Booker (Comstock) that leads him to produce false memories, but such a staunch refusal to remember that male Lutece was the one who bought and later offered him a way to get Anna back, or that Comstock was the one who took his child, seems rather suspect from an actual narrative perspective, given that Booker is given a higher sense of purpose/identity as a human being compared to Jack from Bioshock.

I mean, it's explained in-game, sure, but since Booker is supposed to be a more fleshed out, non-blank slate character, and we're given way more information about his life and motivations through dialogue with Liz and Slate, it seems that much more out of place to have him take such mental gymnastics to not remember anything to the point of thinking his daughter was already dead.

Combine that with the speed/sudden pick up of narrative information at the end, and it leaves you as the player deciphering things more slowly than the new elements that are brought in, because you're still trying to understand Booker's 'true' set of memories.

Infinite took Bioshock's 'twist' brought on by the character's lack of knowledge of Fontaine's actions, and amped it up to the level of actually 'lying' to the player in terms of being given information straight from the avatar that represents our influence in the game's world.

Booker is the ultimate unreliable narrator, since he is one who we view/frame the story from. When combining that with the other 'new' information/injection of story elements such as the metaphysics at the end that aren't really given any sort of grounding or governing principles, or the 'sudden' confirmation of the father/daughter revelation that really isn't touched upon at all by Booker before the sudden whirlwind ending, it could definitely make for a 'what actually happened' dissonance by some viewers

I understand and can appreciate what Levine did, but I don't think the elements mesh together as well as he wanted them to.

Still an amazing narrative design decision for a game, though.

Well of course he has never heard of Columbia, it doesn't exist in the reality he comes from. Nothing wrong with that one, that is actually one of the few times where we can trust him. He had absolutely no way of knowing about Columbia. Everything else does kind of have to be explained away because we, as the player, could not know certain info yet but they did say that memories get muddled together with yourself from the reality you just stepped into so it makes sense that Booker would be conflicted about whether he had a daughter or not. His memories were getting mixed with Comstock's so part of his brain said he had a daughter that he gave away from a young age and part of his brain told him that he was sterile and never had a child no matter how hard he tried. I imagine that would make most of us feel confused as well.
 

CrazyDude

Member
It saddens me that there are quite a few people here who just don't like the story/ending because it isn't palatable to their tastes (which is entirely fair) or because it isn't what they were expecting. It's so well done. Don't get hung up on the little details. Booker letting himself be drowned by all his daughters to attone for his cross-dimensional sins is a beautiful moment, damn it. So sad, tragic, poignant. And the game earns it so well by foreshadowing all of this stuff.

On another note, on my 2nd playthrough now, I'm pretty sure Lady Comstock is the same woman who gave birth to Anna in Booker's universe. For one thing, her name is A. Comstock (probably Annabelle, as hinted at by the undercover lady on the boardwalks and also Anna, named after her mother). It also explains why the gate to Comstock House recognizes Elizabeth, wrongly, as Lady Comstock - genetic likeness, not just the clothes. Similar to how the bathyspheres in Rapture can be used by Jack because he has a genetic likeness to Ryan. So she actually IS Liz's mother, just not in that particular dimension. And it explains why Liz looks kind of like her.

I still think the whole ghost mom plotline is by far the hokiest and handwaved portion of the story, but at least there's something to it.

It would well done if it wasn't all shoe horned in at the end.
 
N

Noray

Unconfirmed Member
It would well done if it wasn't all shoe horned in at the end.

How do you figure that? The entire game there's interdimensional travel going on. There are also plenty of hints that things aren't what they seem. I figured out Liz being Booker's daughter by the Hall of Heroes, and suspected Comstock being Booker by the time you meet him. It wasn't shoe horned in, it's not like there isn't plenty of foreshadowing going on throughout. The Luteces, the audiologs... hell, before you even meet Elizabeth you find a log that says her powers are the result of "a small piece of her remaining from where she came". There is so much foreshadowing going on. It's not the game's fault you didn't see it.
 

nbthedude

Member
It saddens me that there are quite a few people here who just don't like the story/ending because it isn't palatable to their tastes (which is entirely fair) or because it isn't what they were expecting. It's so well done. Don't get hung up on the little details. Booker letting himself be drowned by all his daughters to attone for his cross-dimensional sins is a beautiful moment, damn it. So sad, tragic, poignant. And the game earns it so well by foreshadowing all of this stuff.

I think many people have made very articulate critcisms that go far beyond taste. This is not akin to a "I don't like chocolate ice cream" debate.

I am pretty much your antithesis in that it saddens me to so many people think this is a great narrative. It may be just the literature teacher in me, but it honestly makes me concerned that a generation of kids could grow up having never read a substantial amount of good literature and therefore have no idea what a well developed narrative even is because their idea of narratives are derived from videogames. It makes me feel bad kind of bad about my hobby and I don't like to feel bad about my hobby.
 

pakkit

Banned
Wouldn't the ending be from the 3rd person perspective then? Booker commenting that he feels 20 years younger might not have fit the tone but it's kind of a big deal. Also the baptism wouldn't have been nearly as affecting if it was some other guy I guess

You don't play as a single Booker through the course of the game, though. In fact, you die relatively early (at the baptism before you enter Columbia, and then again when you first encounter Songbird).
 

Sorian

Banned
You don't play as a single Booker through the course of the game, though. In fact, you die relatively early (at the baptism before you enter Columbia, and then again when you first encounter Songbird).

Oh shit, I feel really dense now. I didn't even put together that those were cases of our current Booker dying and a new one coming in (I gathered that about the player caused deaths but not these force deaths). That explains my main gripe that everytime it seemed that songbird was going to take out Booker that he just stopped. He never did stop, he did kill that Booker and we just didn't know it at the time.
 

Proc

Member
Great game. Couldn't put it down and that says alot these days. Went to bed and woke up thinking about the ending. So excited that I had to show the girlfriend lol.
 

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
Well of course he has never heard of Columbia, it doesn't exist in the reality he comes from. Nothing wrong with that one, that is actually one of the few times where we can trust him. He had absolutely no way of knowing about Columbia.

Right, I understand that, but Columbia isn't like Rapture, it isn't something that made an attempt to be secretive. To have Booker just say "never heard of it" and not question it anymore seems rather odd to me, given that Columbia was directly involved in US State Affairs like attacking Peking and such. I know that it's probably a game choice to not expand further upon for fear of breaking the narrative by having Booker ask too many questions too early and get people wondering too soon, but to some extent, it shows Booker as being unreliable because it disconnects with player curiosity about this fantastic floating city that they've found themselves in, and Booker just ignores it. (Though that could just be me nitpicking a bit, I suppose)

Everything else does kind of have to be explained away because we, as the player, could not know certain info yet but they did say that memories get muddled together with yourself from the reality you just stepped into so it makes sense that Booker would be conflicted about whether he had a daughter or not. His memories were getting mixed with Comstock's so part of his brain said he had a daughter that he gave away from a young age and part of his brain told him that he was sterile and never had a child no matter how hard he tried. I imagine that would make most of us feel confused as well.

Eh, that's reaching, as we aren't really given any sense that he's gotten mentally conflicting reports from Comstock influence. We are told that he gets memories from Vox martyr Booker, and while it's certainly possible that it applies to Comstock as well, we are never given knowledge of it. We can't just assume it happens equally, partially (IMO, at least) since Comstock is a very different 'person' than Booker due to the baptism split leading to such large universal changes, and also that if his memories did bleed over, Booker would be much more forewarned on Comstock's choices/decisions, and not be in the dark any longer.

Booker also says that his wife was pregnant when she died, implying that bleed-over of Comstock's sterility didn't happen. We are never told what, if anything, did bleed over.

You don't play as a single Booker through the course of the game, though. In fact, you die relatively early (at the baptism before you enter Columbia, and then again when you first encounter Songbird).

That's subjective, I believe. Probable, but not definitive, unless I'm missing something. It could also be Booker reliving his 'true' memories while in a near death state, especially since the scene always changes directly after the 'death' event to somewhere else without any indication of what actually happened, i.e. him appearing in the garden after being 'drowned' by the preacher in the beginning, and just accepting it.

(I only 'died' once in-game to experience a non-cutscene door sequence, and all Booker said was "what the hell was that", so he could expand upon it later)
 
N

Noray

Unconfirmed Member
I think many people have made very articulate critcisms that go far beyond taste. This is not akin to a "I don't like chocolate ice cream" debate.

I am pretty much your antithesis in that it saddens me to so many people think this is a great narrative. It may be just the literature teacher in me, but it honestly makes me concerned that a generation of kids could grow up having never read a substantial amount of good literature and therefore have no idea what a well developed narrative even is because their idea of narratives are derived from videogames. It makes me feel bad kind of bad about my hobby and I don't like to feel bad about my hobby.

I didn't mean to imply that the narrative is ironclad or anything, it does require suspension of disbelief here and there, and some willingness to let the story handwave certain things (like, shouldn't Liz/Anna be drowning the original Booker at the end, those kinds of questions).

What do you think is bad about the narrative? I apologize if you've posted it and I missed it, but there are many posts in this thread.
 
I've thought more on the ending and I think I've definitively decided that this is what occurs in the end:
endingtimeline9njbo.jpg

When female Lutece states that "time is an ocean, why turn back a tide" (paraphrased) I don't believe she is stating it isn't possible to erase their timeline because time is all happening simultaneously. What I think she's saying is that there are hundreds of billions of infinite sets of infinite universes, the scale of it is enormous, almost incomprehensible. She doesn't see the point in removing one infinite set of infinite sets because, in the large scheme of things, it's like removing our solar system from the entire universe, it makes almost no difference in the 'overall story', she's nihilistic. Time in each universe is relative which is why the tears can see into the future, past, etc. but it is still occuring linearly relative to that timeline. There cannot coexist sets of universes in which Booker fails and Booker succeeds, they're mutually exclusive and the 'succeed' version will always exist over the 'failure universe'. Why can't this be? Because Elizabeth can see all of the doors. If she can see every single infinite set where Booker and Comstock attend the baptism, she strangles Comstock in every single timelines, even timelines where Booker fails. That means that if Booker succeeds even a single time, every other universe in which Comstock and Booker exists becomes a loop, a paradox. The universe doesn't like paradoxes (it doesn't like its peas in its porridge) and fixes the timeline to remove the paradox (the universe provides Elizabeth the power to solve the paradox because she is central to it. which, in one timeline, she does).

The Luteces and Elizabeth at the end of the game are different power-wise. The Luteces are scattered across the timelines but don't have control/sight over it, they cannot simultaneously see and comprehend each one which is why they must keep on affecting the variables of the timeline (which is why they always repeat the events of the game changing certain aspects until Booker succeeds as opposed to just teleporting him to a specific segment), taking into account the constants, so that Booker can succeed in creating the paradox. Ultimately, a destruction resolution occurs and the variable (Booker accepting or rejecting baptism) becomes a constant to prevent the possibility of the looping paradox (the red line/set of events). This way, both the male Lutece (who succeeded in resetting their meddling) and the female Lutece (who sees resetting this set as pointless since there are infinite other sets of infinites which makes this single set irrelevant, such as the sets where Booker dies in Wounded Knee, when Booker rejects and somebody somewhere sets up a city and lighthouse, when Booker never gambles or drinks, etc.) are right while you still break the thought experiment and neither of the Lutece's views conflict with the other's.

I'm kind of typing while thinking so sorry if that is a bit incomprehensible. Does that seem a likely answer to the literal plot of the game which takes into account the ending and epilogue without contradicting anything to anybody else? Regardless, I think I've finally settled on my interpretation of the literal ending presented. I've been thinking about it a lot since EatChildren and ThusZarathustra suggested the possibility of everything simultaneously occuring (allowing for a simultaneous/circular version of events or a repeating chain) and I think this is my best explanation to suggest its impossibility. Or at least the best I'm going to come up with in this universe.
 

Sorian

Banned
Right, I understand that, but Columbia isn't like Rapture, it isn't something that made an attempt to be secretive. To have Booker just say "never heard of it" and not question it anymore seems rather odd to me, given that Columbia was directly involved in US State Affairs like attacking Peking and such. I know that it's probably a game choice to not expand further upon for fear of breaking the narrative by having Booker ask too many questions too early and get people wondering too soon, but to some extent, it shows Booker as being unreliable because it disconnects with player curiosity about this fantastic floating city that they've found themselves in, and Booker just ignores it. (Though that could just be me nitpicking a bit, I suppose)

I don't quite remember how much Booker has really learned about Columbia when that section of dialogue comes up with him saying he has never heard of it. I'm sure he would have been able to tell that it was a news-worthy event when it took to the sky but if he didn't know about the Boxer Rebellion involvement yet then he would have no reason to see this city as super important beyond the fact that it could fly. I also hate to use it but the whole taking care of his debt thing really was the only thing on Booker's mind until Liz gets pissed at him when she notices the airship is set to head to New York. We have to remember, Booker is a prick whether he is Comstock or not. Guy torched indians alive because he didn't want people to think he was related to them in any way, joined and stayed with the Pinkertons for awhile, and sold his daughter off to fix his gambling habit. Sure, he feels regret after but a lot of these things were done without a second to think beforehand. He does seem like a one-track fellow until something snaps him out of it.


Eh, that's reaching, as we aren't really given any sense that he's gotten mentally conflicting reports from Comstock influence. We are told that he gets memories from Vox martyr Booker, and while it's certainly possible that it applies to Comstock as well, we are never given knowledge of it. We can't just assume it happens equally, partially (IMO, at least) since Comstock is a very different 'person' than Booker due to the baptism split leading to such large universal changes, and also that if his memories did bleed over, Booker would be much more forewarned on Comstock's choices/decisions, and not be in the dark any longer.

Booker also says that his wife was pregnant when she and the baby died, implying that bleed-over of Comstock's sterility didn't happen. We are never told what, if anything, did bleed over.

I've said a lot in this thread about how the universe tries to consider Comstock and Booker two different people when they really aren't (the whole born again thing). Everyone who receives info from another dimension self talks about how it isn't a perfect process where the memories just both show up and you have to make heads or tails of it. A lot of them complain about how the memories start trying to delete each other and large chunks of memory are just completely gone until something can trigger the memory to come back. Hell, the whole premise of Booker is to show that when these chunks disappear, the brain attempts to piece the info together itself. He may not have gotten the sterility memory verbatem but he did get the overlap of he had a chld but did not have a child. Without anything else there to connect, it makes sense to think that the brain would connect those by saying "I had a child but the baby died during birth." It's really the only logical conclusion that a normal person could draw. Obviously, logic wasn;t the correct answer here but it's all you have at the time.
 

Pavaloo

Member
Beat it last night and loved my experience with this game. Just chiming in though, people realize this game wasn't going to be called Bioshock? It was only named Bioshock: Subtitle because the brand does well (marketing reasons).
 
That's subjective, I believe. Probable, but not definitive, unless I'm missing something. It could also be Booker reliving his 'true' memories while in a near death state, especially since the scene always changes directly after the 'death' event to somewhere else without any indication of what actually happened, i.e. him appearing in the garden after being 'drowned' by the preacher in the beginning, and just accepting it.

(I only 'died' once in-game to experience a non-cutscene door sequence, and all Booker said was "what the hell was that", so he could expand upon it later)

This is my understanding as well, unless the Luteces' can open tears anywhere in Columbia at a whim, which I don't think they can - for one, the 122 attempts on the chalkboard wouldn't really make sense as Booker would have only 'died' twice at that point (baptism at the entrance of Columbia, murdered by the lighthouse keeper), and it would be his third attempt, not 123rd. Every time a Booker dies, another one starts on the boat with the Luteces'.
 
It seem to be then that there is nowhere left to go in this world if we have already discovered the element of the story that ties everything together. Has it been confirmed this is Irrationals last throw of the dice with the franchise?

I am at a weird place with this game, I like the gameplay and I think the world was fantastic, I dislike the tears as it relates to the world of Bioshock but thought as part of the game they were the best parts. I honestly still dont see how this is a Bioshock game, I know they have plasmids and vlogs and endless trash cans to search but I would have much preferred they renamed it something else, it would have made the story and scenario much more acceptable to me.

I'm still struggling with your criticisms, I guess I'm just not sure what you mean when you say
"I honestly still dont see how this is a Bioshock game".

What is a Bioshock game to you?
 

Riposte

Member
Beat it last night and loved my experience with this game. Just chiming in though, people realize this game wasn't going to be called Bioshock? It was only named Bioshock: Subtitle because the brand does well (marketing reasons).

And... it is thematically connected to BioShock.
 
N

Noray

Unconfirmed Member
This is my understanding as well, unless the Luteces' can open tears anywhere in Columbia at a whim, which I don't think they can - for one, the 122 attempts on the chalkboard wouldn't really make sense as Booker would have only 'died' twice at that point (baptism at the entrance of Columbia, murdered by the lighthouse keeper), and it would be his third attempt, not 123rd. Every time a Booker dies, another one starts on the boat with the Luteces'.

not necessarily, who's to say we know every variable that led to Booker's demise all those other times? I think player Booker dies several times in scripted moments of the story. There's never a mention of near-death experiences, all we know is when Booker dies without Liz he's back in the office, and he's back in the office and opening a door (the metaphor the game uses for tears) after those moments (baptism, battleship bay) as well. Seems more likely purely given the evidence we have.
 
Then whats the meaning of the post credits scene?



I also found it a bit odd that there wasn't much emotion between Booker and E once it was made clear that he was her father.

I guess everything was reset. Booker DeWitt took Compton's place as he was baptised, and was drowned by Elizabeth and his wife. This made the events from Bioshock Infinite to have never happened, and we came back to the timeline where Booker DeWitt refused the baptisation.

Sad thing is, he's still a fucked up dad in that timeline.

Also I guess he didn't have time to fully processed that he was her father. Everything just happened in the last few minutes. Fuck, if you think about it Comption timeline he MARRIED that version of Elizabeth (Which explains why she might have gone insane. She probably knew that was her and was horribly traumatised/WTF at the realisation that he was her dad in an alternate universe). Also he harvested the Elizabeths from the original Bioshock timeline :p

Beat it last night and loved my experience with this game. Just chiming in though, people realize this game wasn't going to be called Bioshock? It was only named Bioshock: Subtitle because the brand does well (marketing reasons).

Oh I hated that name at first. Preferred Aeroshock.

But after the ending yes. It makes sense. The 'Infinite' from the name doesn't come from the fact that it's set in the sky but rather the countless different alternate dimensions that exists in the Bioshock universe.
 

Sorian

Banned
This is my understanding as well, unless the Luteces' can open tears anywhere in Columbia at a whim, which I don't think they can - for one, the 122 attempts on the chalkboard wouldn't really make sense as Booker would have only 'died' twice at that point (baptism at the entrance of Columbia, murdered by the lighthouse keeper), and it would be his third attempt, not 123rd. Every time a Booker dies, another one starts on the boat with the Luteces'.

It makes me laugh because the coin flip happens what, like an hour or two into the game. How has it taken them 122 tries to get him to that scene without a death? Seems like Booker is an imcompetent fellow too.
 
You accepted all the other sci-fi/supernatural parts of the game (rifts in time and space, floating cities, powers enabled by drinking vigors etc.) but the multiverse concept was too supernatural? Weird.

Mohinder Suresh: Hiro Nakamura can stop time. Teleport by folding space. Theoretically, he can fold time as well.
Matt Parkman: So you're saying he's a time traveler?
Mohinder Suresh: Is that any stranger than being able to read someone's mind?
Matt Parkman: Yeeeah. It is.
 
Excellent points.

I agree about the aesthetics being worth the price of admission, though. In general the art and sound direction in this game is A+. Perhaps some of the best I have ever seen in a game. But the narrative is a convoluted mess that plays fast and lose with its concepts and never develops any of them sufficiently.

Last night I compared it to Prometheus, and the more I think about that comparison the more it really fits. Both were huge blockbuster budgeted projects that were delayed multiple times. Both were aesthetically breathtaking but tonally and thematically inconsistent. Bioshock wants to be a social satire, a personal relationship story, and a hard scifi story all at the same time. Prometheus wanted to be a horror movie, a philosophical scifi film, and a metaphorical investigation of the meaning of life all at the same time. Both bite off way more than they could chew in terms of trying to set up themes that weren't sufficiently developed and paced. Etc. Etc.

Bioshock Infinite is front loaded with amazing ambience and set pieces in the opening 20 minutes and backloaded with a sloppy narrative dump in the last 20 minutes.

But Prometheus generates more questions and plot holes than answers. BE does the contrary for the most part or at least serve the SciFi theme.

Mohinder Suresh: Hiro Nakamura can stop time. Teleport by folding space. Theoretically, he can fold time as well.
Matt Parkman: So you're saying he's a time traveler?
Mohinder Suresh: Is that any stranger than being able to read someone's mind?
Matt Parkman: Yeeeah. It is.

Heroes... UGH
 

Sorian

Banned
Yeah, I figured they added those story beats after being told to call it Bioshock. :p

I still have to say that Ken had these themes in mind when he was making the game. He always likes to put in messages that speak about the video game industry as a whole and the whole "There is always a lighthouse, a man, a city...." speech didn't seem like something that was shoe-horned in. It really seemed like he wanted that there to speak about how in video games, every game in a series does always have these types of constants.
 
not necessarily, who's to say we know every variable that led to Booker's demise all those other times? I think player Booker dies several times in scripted moments of the story. There's never a mention of near-death experiences, all we know is when Booker dies without Liz he's back in the office, and he's back in the office and opening a door (the metaphor the game uses for tears) after those moments (baptism, battleship bay) as well. Seems more likely purely given the evidence we have.

There is a significant difference in those moments though than the typical door deaths in that they are part of an ongoing memory. At the baptism, after seeing the door he immediately sees the vision of New York in 1983 burning, This is a memory of Comstock. No other times after death does he ever experience a memory yet this memory has occured immediately after arriving in Columbia. Likewise, in Battleship Bay, we play through the next stage of this memory yet we see that it has been muddled because Elizabeth is there (which didn't happen in reality, Elizabeth wasn't there, nobody was except Booker, Robert and Anna in the other room). I think those mandatory moments are simply the working of Booker's mind/memory as he tries to remember what happened prior to being brought over. Likewise, every other time there is a change after a death we see, we always see precisely what changed to prevent the death. In those, we don't. That's not to say it's not a possibility but I don't think it's as likely as it may initially seem.
 
Also I just fucking realised that all the scenes of him in the apartment wasn't about him dreaming it up, but most probably the Luteces picking up another version of him to fight.
 

Pavaloo

Member
The whole game is connected to Bioshock though. Elizabeth being the little sister parallel, etc.

I know, I know, at this point the two are heavily connected, but I just remember when the game was announced Ken Levine told giant bomb he wanted to call the game something else and have it be a more spiritual successor. There's a bunch of stuff from the early showings of the game that you don't even see in the final product, so I think they definitely made changes to their narrative.

Anyway, my comment about the name has more to do with someone's post I read where they said "I get how it's bioshock, but I kind of wish they never called it bioshock."

edit:
I still have to say that Ken had these themes in mind when he was making the game. He always likes to put in messages that speak about the video game industry as a whole and the whole "There is always a lighthouse, a man, a city...." speech didn't seem like something that was shoe-horned in. It really seemed like he wanted that there to speak about how in video games, every game in a series does always have these types of constants.

Yeah I don't doubt he had all of this in mind, because it is a very strong theme throughout the game. I still don't fully get the parallel with "there's a man, a city, a lighthouse, and a girl." I get the city, the man, the lighthouse, and presumably the girl is the little sisters in Bioshock. Does that count though? Multiple little sisters? I didn't play through all of Bioshock 1, aren't there any other important female characters in the game?
 

Megasoum

Banned
Something I noticed is that in the E3 demo Elizabeth seems to have difficulties opening/controlling the tears yet in the game she's just trowing them left and right like it's nothing. It feels like a huge part of the narrative that was cut.
 
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