Support NeoGAF

Maxwell House · Feb 24, 2007

Y2Kevbug11 said:
And the 360's GPU and processor are that cheap? :\

Why not? 360 doesn't use proprietary RAM like the PS3, and the PPC processors and Xenon are off the shelf parts. The Cell processor alone is supposed to cost Sony ~$200 each. The 360 also doesn't have a EE/GS part for hardware backwards compatibility either, further reducing costs.

Over 10 million 360s have already been manufactured so economies of scale has to be pretty substantial by now as well.

AZ Greg · Feb 24, 2007

iapetus said:
Why not look back now?

:lol

Zombie James · Feb 24, 2007

Maxwell House said:
...and the PPC processors and Xenon are off the shelf parts.

Really? Where can I find them?

J-Rzez · Feb 24, 2007

Y2Kevbug11 said:
And the 360's GPU and processor are that cheap? :\

I don't know why people assume that "iSupply" chart is dead on... it may not even be in the ballpark... they're just wild assumptions from who knows where... Until I see Sony say, "iSUPPLY" is absolutely correct, or, see Sony blurt out the cost it's spot on with isupply, it can't be believed...

I'm in the wrong work field though... I should start up a company that not only makes up hardware guestimates, but also have it built into my analyst firm! Plus, on the side, I'll do your local weather 30-day forecast...

BlueTsunami · Feb 24, 2007

Xenon an off the shelf PC part?! :lol :lol :lol :lol

Raistlin · Feb 24, 2007

Maxwell House said:
Why not? 360 doesn't use proprietary RAM like the PS3, and the PPC processors and Xenon are off the shelf parts. The Cell processor alone is supposed to cost Sony ~$200 each. The 360 also doesn't have a EE/GS part for hardware backwards compatibility either, further reducing costs.

Over 10 million 360s have already been manufactured so economies of scale has to be pretty substantial by now as well.

While PS3 may be more expensive, you are misinformed about some of the 360's costs.

Xenon is most certainly not off-the-shelf. What are you talking about? It may not cost as much as CELL, but it ain't a Pentium either.

Also, Xenos will likely not scale as cheaply as the RSX due to the eDRAM daughter card.

methane47 · Feb 24, 2007

Maxwell House said:
Why not? 360 doesn't use proprietary RAM like the PS3, and the PPC processors and Xenon are off the shelf parts. The Cell processor alone is supposed to cost Sony ~$200 each. The 360 also doesn't have a EE/GS part for hardware backwards compatibility either, further reducing costs.

Over 10 million 360s have already been manufactured so economies of scale has to be pretty substantial by now as well.

airball.gif
:lol :lol

And where the hell did you get that $200 quote for the cell?

Here's a quote from your beloved Isuppli

Description Manufacturer 20 GB 60 GB

Reality Synthesizer Nvidia (Sony) $129.00 $129.00

IBM Cell Broadband Engine IBM (Sony) $89.00 $89.00

I/O Bridge Controller Toshiba (Sony) $59.00 $59.00

Emotion Engine and Graphics Sythnesizer Toshiba (Sony) $27.00 $27.00

Noteworthy Memory - XDR DRAM (4 x 512Mbit) Samsung $48.00 $48.00

Other Components and Manufacturing N/A $148.00 $148.00

Bluetooth Module Sony, Featuring CSR BlueCore 4 Chip $4.10 $4.10

Optional 802.11 b/g Module Marvell Chipset N/A $15.50

Other Components and Manufacturing N/A $2.50 $2.50

Memory Card Board N/A N/A $5.00

Blu-Ray Optical Drive Sony $125.00 $125.00

SATA Hard Drive Seagate $43.00 $54.00

Power Supply Sony (Private-Label) $37.50 $37.50

Cooling / Mounting Cage for Motherboard N/A $22.00 $22.00

Enclosure / Hardware N/A $31.00 $33.00

Miscellaneous Other Assemblies N/A $1.75 $1.75

Manufacturing Costs N/A $39.00 $40.00

Preliminary Total Console Cost Estimate $805.85 $840.35

Suggested Retail Pricing (US) $499.00 $599.00

Difference Between Cost and Retail Price $306.85 $241.35

Source - iSuppli Corporation November 2006

And they are probably over estimating as well...

DjangoReinhardt · Feb 24, 2007

Jiggy37 said:
Second thought:
Oh yeah. Sony's going to stop producing PS2s at some point, at which time a significant portion of the PS2 library will be basically dead to potential future customers. Wow. Good job, guys.

No, you'll just be buying it again via PSN.

BC as we know it won't exist in new consoles ten years from now.

TheIkariWarrior · Feb 24, 2007

Maxwell House said:
Why not? 360 doesn't use proprietary RAM like the PS3, and the PPC processors and Xenon are off the shelf parts. The Cell processor alone is supposed to cost Sony ~$200 each. The 360 also doesn't have a EE/GS part for hardware backwards compatibility either, further reducing costs.

Over 10 million 360s have already been manufactured so economies of scale has to be pretty substantial by now as well.

the RSX GPU in PS3 is closer to being off-the-shelf than the Xenon CPU in Xbox 360.

the PS3 also does not have an incredibly high-bandwidth EDRAM memory-daughter graphics chip.

rod · Feb 24, 2007

chespace said:
Dude, give it up already. PS3 could ship with as a cartridge-based system and Kittonwy would still defend that shit with his life. Sony can do no wrong in his eyes. :lol

:lol :lol calls a spade a spade

p3tran · Feb 24, 2007

Maxwell House said:
The $500 Motherboard price includes the Cell processor, RAM, EE/GS, GPU, etc. It looks reasonable to me.

well, I have some terrific opportunities for you to buy some prime land in the dark side of the moon at reasonable prices..

AzureNightmare · Feb 24, 2007

This thread is legendary, where the hell is DrinkyCrow in times like these?

mintylurb · Feb 24, 2007

Maxwell House said:
From reading this thread, it should be pretty obvious that quite a number of people think BC is important.

Indeed, that's why so many of them have been holding off on buying the xbox 360 until MS can provide better backwards compatibility..

llTll · Feb 24, 2007

i really think its time to anyone to go and pick up PS3 right now if he/she cares about PS2/PS1 games.

its either now or never.

but on the other side. always early Units has problems. i dont know if there is any for PS3. its double edged sword really :/

mrklaw · Feb 24, 2007

Onix said:
My feelings as to why the 360 is currently the 'lead platform' (as opposed to coming out first ) ... is through a combination of doing some things right, and Sony doing some things wrong.

MS positives:

* High-quality dev environment at all levels, including online

* Powerful HW, that is relatively straightforward to tap

Sony ****ups:

* Price scares devs as far as immediate userbase goes

* Dev environment, while certainly better than PS2 initially (and is improving), isn't up to MS's level. Support for online functionality was/is late.

* Powerful HW, but more difficult to manage

So there ... savor this moment. It ain't often I compliment MS. :lol

My feelings as to why 360 is lead development platform - it was out first. Thats it

Of course publishers don't expect the lead platform to be PS3 when it isn't even out yet. But surely there aren't many people out there that expect the situation to remain static. Now the PS is in the market, publishers will base their lead platforms on which machine they expect to be the market leader, and I expect many publishers will have that as the PS3.

Sadly, in the real world, developers dont' get the choice to go for the 'lovely PC like architecture and environment'. They develop on the platform the Nasty Evil Publisher is paying them millions for.

Agent Icebeezy · Feb 24, 2007

mrklaw said:
My feelings as to why 360 is lead development platform - it was out first. Thats it

Of course publishers don't expect the lead platform to be PS3 when it isn't even out yet. But surely there aren't many people out there that expect the situation to remain static. Now the PS is in the market, publishers will base their lead platforms on which machine they expect to be the market leader, and I expect many publishers will have that as the PS3.

Sadly, in the real world, developers dont' get the choice to go for the 'lovely PC like architecture and environment'. They develop on the platform the Nasty Evil Publisher is paying them millions for.

Ease of development will keep them put, just watch. Not even that, surely you've seen Xbox 360 sales. Why would they change from that? You seem to think it's preordained that the PS3 is going to end up on top. Exactly why? Nothing that Sony has done has promoted that way of thinking. If we are looking at the current standings, the Wii is going to embarrass both the Ps3 and 360 when it is all said and done.

xabre · Feb 24, 2007

If I did have plans to buy a PS3 I would be F*CKING spewing at this news.

xabre · Feb 24, 2007

Agent Icebeezy said:
You seem to think it's preordained that the PS3 is going to end up on top. Exactly why?

Because many people are still stuck in the "OMFG PALYSTATION BRRND NAME PWRRRR!!!!" mindset that they've been stuck in since the late 90's.

mrklaw · Feb 24, 2007

xabre said:
Because many people are still stuck in the "OMFG PALYSTATION BRRND NAME PWRRRR!!!!" mindset that they've been stuck in since the late 90's.

including the publishers

If the major publishers push Playstation3 like they did 2, then it will be the market leader.

And as much as 360 has done so far, MS need to persuade publishers that it can hit 100m units to make it a sure fire success to base all development off. They are a long way from that at the moment. Brand value of Playstation (not to mention the simple fact that many millions have one and are likely to keep within the brand rather than move around) will mean lots of pull for publisher too.

I'm not saying its preordained, but I am saying I think its very likely. Although all this hoo-ha is fun to watch.

Pud · Feb 24, 2007

I can't believe some people still believe that the majority (i.e. the word Sony's PR would use if they had compatibility over 51%!!!) of games will be working, and that even if they aren't they're going to devote large resources to emulation.

First, read the press release. Note the words limited, and the sentence that starts with "rather than". Then read this:

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3157442

We feel for our European brothers. No hardware backwards compatibility means the majority of the PlayStation 2 library, especially niche games, will never be playable on PlayStation 3.

Note the wording. Seriously, some of the posters in this thread must be from a circus full of monkeys

seemingly the same breed that run Sony?

If the major publishers push Playstation3 like they did 2, then it will be the market leader.

Please note the current worldwide sales, and most importantly, sales trends.

Agent Icebeezy · Feb 24, 2007

mrklaw said:
including the publishers

If the major publishers push Playstation3 like they did 2, then it will be the market leader.

And as much as 360 has done so far, MS need to persuade publishers that it can hit 100m units to make it a sure fire success to base all development off. They are a long way from that at the moment. Brand value of Playstation (not to mention the simple fact that many millions have one and are likely to keep within the brand rather than move around) will mean lots of pull for publisher too.

I'm not saying its preordained, but I am saying I think its very likely. Although all this hoo-ha is fun to watch.

Games like Okami tanked on that 100 million base while Dead Rising and Lost Planet both had first month releases of over 300k sales. From the way releases are going, it appears that they are banging their heads collectively trying to get games across different platforms out at the same time and you expect them to focus on it? I don't see the rhyme or reason as to why. You keep reverting back to power of brand. I will have to agree, its strong, but it's not at it's strongest. If it was, we wouldn't have seen DQ9 on DS, Sega making press releases going from PSP to DS, etc. What was good yesterday doesn't mean its the same for tomorrow. Variables change. Importance of game franchises and genres change. 11 years ago, I practically lived in Blockbuster just to play Mario 64. Now? I'm going to get Mario Galaxy, but it's not the same feeling. Things change. Judge by what is going on today, not yesteryear.

xabre · Feb 24, 2007

mrklaw said:
If the major publishers push Playstation3 like they did 2, then it will be the market leader.

If wishes were fishes...

Sorry, they aren't now and they're just not going to in the future. There are a variety of reasons for this that should be obvious to most people with the expense of the PS3, the already established userbase for the 360 and the success of the Wii being the most evident.

Further to the point made about sales trends and the current predicament of the PS3 in the market, what exactly is there to suggest that the PS3 will enjoy a PS2-esque push anytime soon?

mrklaw · Feb 24, 2007

Honestly, I'm not constantly referring to the power of brand. I think I mentioned it once.

I *am* being a cynical old bastard who recognises that its the publishers that call the shots and if their spreadsheets prefer playstation, then thats what the developers will develop on.

And there are lots of inputs into those decisions. Brand is one. Persuasion by platform owner is another. And basic installed base is another (but not the only factor by a long way)

Okami is a bad example - surely it would have done even worse on a lower installed base? People are just stupid and don't recognise quality. I hope these kinds of original titles have realistic break-even projections for the publishers because although it 'tanked' relative to big titles, I'd hope those numbers were on par with expectations.

mrklaw · Feb 24, 2007

xabre said:
Further to the point made about sales trends and the current predicament of the PS3 in the market, what exactly is there to suggest that the PS3 will enjoy a PS2-esque push anytime soon?

Dig up the numbers on PS2 post-launch. PS2 is a massive success now, after 6 years in the market. But that doesn't mean it was that successful from the start. It took a while to build up momentum. So a slow start doesn't mean death or failure.

Although I will agree that the start of a console's life - just when it needs to get its momentum up - is the most dangerous and most likely to be influenced by other forces (like wii or 360)

Pud · Feb 24, 2007

mrklaw said:
Brand

xabre · Feb 24, 2007

mrklaw said:
Honestly, I'm not constantly referring to the power of brand. I think I mentioned it once.

Then how is the console going to get this PS2 level of backing you seem to strongly believe it's going to get at some point?

I *am* being a cynical old bastard who recognises that its the publishers that call the shots and if their spreadsheets prefer playstation, then thats what the developers will develop on.

They prefer whatever they can make the most money on, that's what they prefer. At the moment that isn't the PS3.

Wollan · Feb 24, 2007

I expect it to catch up to X360 in world wide numbers this year.

On another note, for us who favor the PS3/X360 experience, do you even care about the Wii's marketshare? I mean, Wii could sell a billion consoles but there will still be a sustainable market for games that pushes tech, online & budgets. There will always be people like us that crave that so I don't have a worry at all. And the PS3 will lead that market.

Pud · Feb 24, 2007

Wollan said:
I expect it to catch up to X360 in world wide numbers this year.

On another note, for us who favor the PS3/X360 experience, do you even care about the Wii's marketshare? I mean, Wii could sell a billion consoles but there will still be a sustainable market for games that pushes tech, online & budgets. There will always be people like us that crave that so I don't have a worry at all. And the PS3 will lead that market.

Not if it sells like shit (i.e. less than the 360's mediocre numbers!) in all released regions like it's currently doing.

Hmm... Here's a thought! developers usually go to where they can make the most money to the highest marketshare?

xabre · Feb 24, 2007

Wollan said:
I expect it to catch up to X360 in world wide numbers this year.

No.

Altaïr · Feb 24, 2007

Dig up the numbers on PS2 post-launch. PS2 is a massive success now, after 6 years in the market. But that doesn't mean it was that successful from the start. It took a while to build up momentum. So a slow start doesn't mean death or failure.

PS2 slow start ? it sold more than 2 million units in each territory in less than 3 months, mostly supply limited.

Rayne.S · Feb 24, 2007

Maxwell House said:
Why not? 360 doesn't use proprietary RAM like the PS3, and the PPC processors and Xenon are off the shelf parts. The Cell processor alone is supposed to cost Sony ~$200 each. The 360 also doesn't have a EE/GS part for hardware backwards compatibility either, further reducing costs.

Over 10 million 360s have already been manufactured so economies of scale has to be pretty substantial by now as well.

Nu uh, production costs are waay waaaaaay lower. The price per parts is totally dependant on the R&D in the years before production !

xabre · Feb 24, 2007

Wollan said:
On another note, for us who favor the PS3/X360 experience, do you even care about the Wii's marketshare?

Development resources devoted to Wii are development resources not devoted to the 'PS3/X360 experience'. And since I think that the Wii has got this gen sewn up by a country mile then yes, I think it matters.

Wollan · Feb 24, 2007

Pud said:
Not if it sells like shit (i.e. less than the 360's mediocre numbers!) in all released regions like it's currently doing.[/URL]

If it only was released in all regions yet. The PS3 will be relatively strong in two regions, ok in one while the the X360 will be relatively strong in one and ok in another.

xabre · Feb 24, 2007

Altaïr said:
PS2 slow start ? it sold more than 2 million units in each territory in less than 3 months, mostly supply limited.

You sure as hell didn't see PS2 stock sitting in stores unsold around launch period.

Pud · Feb 24, 2007

Wollan said:
If it only was released in all regions yet. The PS3 will be relatively strong in three regions while the the X360 will be relatively strong in one and ok in another.

Read my post again, notice the careful wording. Besides - read this thread. Do you honestly think the PS3 is going to explode in europe? Currently the 360 is tracking around the original XBox in NA (and shitty in Europe), with the PS3 behind that even. And in Japan, the PS3 is almost a complete bust. It's not strong in any sense of the word. In fact, the only console that seems to be strong in all regions is the one you don't like - and if that continues, guess where developer dollars are going to go in future?

Wollan · Feb 24, 2007

Pud said:
and if that continues, guess where developer dollars are going to go in future?

Goodbye Ubisoft & EA. I'll stay with Epic, SCEWWS, MS, Valve and the rest of the guys.

Do you honestly think the PS3 is going to explode in europe?

Explode.. I think it will do well. I think it will do slightly better than in the US. Not much but a bit more. It's not like the X360 is that far in front of the PS3 in it's dominant market.

Pud · Feb 24, 2007

Wollan said:
Goodbye Ubisoft & EA. I'll stay with Epic, SCEWWS, MS, Valve and the rest of the guys.

Just Ubi and EA? :lol Can you call it the "Dream Team" too?

It's not like the X360 is that far in front of the PS3 in it's dominant market.

Yeah, it's only about 8 million behind :lol

Forsete · Feb 24, 2007

xabre said:
You sure as hell didn't see PS2 stock sitting in stores unsold around launch period.

PS2 didnt get shipments every single week either.

Wollan · Feb 24, 2007

Pud said:
Yeah, it's only about 8 million behind :lol

I was talking monthly sales. Also, that is the worldwide sales number of X360 (where 4.5mill are in the US).

Pud · Feb 24, 2007

Wollan said:
I was talking monthly sales. Also, that is the worldwide sales number.

Yeah, and total worldwide marketshare is what matters when publishers bring out the chequebook. The 360 is approx between 8 and 9 million right now, the Wii approx at 5 million now - and closing fast, and the PS3 hasn't even hit 2. The 360 only sells OK in one region (hence its slow growth), the PS3 is not selling at all in Japan and is doing sub-360 numbers in NA, and the Wii is growing very quickly in all major markets.

This can't be spun in any other way: either the PS3 absolutely takes over Europe with a massive sales explosion, or things will be extremely hurtful for Sony this gen. And in my opinion, Sony's going to have a harder time with Europe than they are having with NA. The price is one thing, but the removal of effective BC will further hamper their launch plans - just look at the mess that is this thread as an example of how many feel.

Wollan · Feb 24, 2007

Pud said:
The 360 is approx between 8 and 9 million right now, the Wii approx at 5 million now - and closing fast, and the PS3 hasn't even hit 2.

Had the X360 hit 2 million sold through as of this time last year? And if so, did they do so without Europe?

Pope Benedict XVI · Feb 24, 2007

mrklaw said:
I *am* being a cynical old bastard who recognises that its the publishers that call the shots and if their spreadsheets prefer playstation, then thats what the developers will develop on.

I very much doubt that their spreadsheets will prefer PS3 in 2007.

plagiarize · Feb 24, 2007

Wollan said:
Had the X360 hit 2 million sold through as of this time last year? And if so, did they do so without Europe?

the 360 isn't about to stop selling though. the ps3 might reach 9 million faster than the 360 did, but the ps3 will have to start outselling the 360 to catch up. even then it could well take over a year.

anyways, now that we're all agreed with Sony in that the EU's backwards compatibility isn't as good, can we start talking about why they've taken this drastic cost cutting measure?

my bet is as a result of poor software sales, but what does everyone else think?

Wollan · Feb 24, 2007

There's only one reason and that was a financial one. They were going to do it sooner or later but due to all the costs they are forced to do so early with the emulator software seemingly being in a premature state.

Elios83 · Feb 24, 2007

plagiarize said:
anyways, now that we're all agreed with Sony in that the EU's backwards compatibility isn't as good, can we start talking about why they've taken this drastic cost cutting measure?

my bet is as a result of poor software sales, but what does everyone else think?

Sony has already answered to this clearly:

"This move is a part of our cost saving measures, similar to the wide
variety of cost saving measures we have applied with both the original
PlayStation and with PS2. In time this leads to a reduction in the cost of
manufacture and over time allows us to reduce the cost of the PS3 to
consumers."

And for the millionth time... this is the first official hardware revision,it will arrive in US and Japan really soon too, it's not a EU only thing.

Shiggy · Feb 24, 2007

Wollan said:
Had the X360 hit 2 million sold through as of this time last year? And if so, did they do so without Europe?

No, but software sales weren't this bad.

Timedog · Feb 24, 2007

iapetus said:
Why not look back now?

:lol :lol I liked how his probably pirated version of Autotune was tuning his vocals to a different key than the song is in.

.....

I wonder when Sony decided on this i.e. how mature is their software emulation going to be? I'm guessing it's a new idea otherwise they would have done it with US and Japan too to save money. Could be another disaster if it's less complete than MS's BC. Or it could show us that MS is being lazy on that front.

Fredrik · Feb 24, 2007

You're all overreacting. I live in Europe, I'm buying the PS3 at launch, I don't care if I can't play PS2 games on it. And I know lots of people who think the same way. I mean, we get a crazy amount of great PS3 games for launch over here. Who cares if there are a few PS2 games we can't play?

Besides, we don't know how many games and which games that won't work yet. Maybe a thousand will work just fine.

Anyway, what's bad about this is that it makes websites all over the world write yet another negative article about PS3. I don't think the BC issue itself will hurt Sony much, it's the talk about it that'll hurt them.

But see what happened with the BC issue on the 360. There was lots of talk at first but in a few months almost everyone seemed to have forgotten about it.

Mar · Feb 24, 2007

Fredrik said:
You're all overreacting. I live in Europe, I'm buying the PS3 at launch, I don't care if I can't play PS2 games on it. And I know lots of people who think the same way. I mean, we get a crazy amount of great PS3 games for launch over here. Who cares if there are a few PS2 games we can't play?

I can understand that you don't care about backwards compatibility. But you don't care that you're getting charged the same price for a less technical system than what everyone else has been buying? I think that's what the point of all the anger is.

Orobi · Feb 24, 2007

Fredrik said:
You're all overreacting. I live in Europe, I'm buying the PS3 at launch, I don't care if I can't play PS2 games on it. And I know lots of people who think the same way. I mean, we get a crazy amount of great PS3 games for launch over here. Who cares if there are a few PS2 games we can't play?

Besides, we don't know how many games and which games that won't work yet. Maybe a thousand will work just fine.

Anyway, what's bad about this is that it makes websites all over the world write yet another negative article about PS3. I don't think the BC issue itself will hurt Sony much, it's the talk about it that'll hurt them.

But see what happened with the BC issue on the 360. There was lots of talk at first but in a few months almost everyone seemed to have forgotten about it.

I agree.

I think is not a real problem. 5 years of PS2 and I've never played any PS1 game on it.
Also, I think a decent emulator will be better than original PS2 chip on PS3: less cost for Sony and (maybe) hi-res or other effects on old PS2 titles played on PS3.

Support NeoGAF

EE/GS removed from PAL PS3, BC going software only. Eurownage total

Member

Member

Banned

Member

there is joy in sucking dick

Post Count: 9999

Member

Thinks he should have been the one to kill Batman's parents.

Member

Banned

Banned

Banned

Member

Banned

MrArseFace

Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!

Banned

Banned

MrArseFace

Banned

Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!

Banned

MrArseFace

MrArseFace

Banned

Banned

Member

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Member

Banned

Banned

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

good credit (by proxy)

Member

Member

Member

Similar threads