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Wait ... what?!?! 360 doesn't have a scaling chip?

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=42164

Amir said:
Hana (or ANA) is not used for scaling in 360. Instead, the graphics processor (GPU) is used to do the scaling. I won't disclose the internals of the filter but it is not bilinear at all. It is much more sophisticated than that with far more taps. Given where the hardware is, the scaling logic is the same in both products.

The [Ars Technica] article is wrong unfortunately. HANA/ANA are video encoders, not scalars.

?!!?

Rich from Eurogamer said:
That Scott Henson quote comes out often. Amir Majidimehr, Corporate Vice
President, Microsoft Corporation, Consumer Media Technology Group, Mobile
and Embedded Devices Division (gasp) says this about that exact article:
"The article is wrong unfortunately. HANA/ANA are video encoders, not
scalers. You basically have a bunch of pixels in memory ready to be
displayed and you must convert it to the appropriate standard, whether it is
composite, component, etc. You need to clock the samples are the right rate
and format the signal (including modulating it for some of the output
formats) before you can hook it up to you TV/monitor."
I also asked him this question to research the 360 Elite article as I
assumed the Henson article to be accurate too:
"Does the Xbox 360 Elite's HANA scaling chip use the same bilinear scaling
algorhythm as the old ANA chip in the original console?"
To which he replied: "Hana (or ANA) is not used for scaling in 360. Instead,
the graphics processor (GPU) is used to do the scaling. I won't disclose the
internals of the filter but it is not bilinear at all. It is much more
sophisticated than that with far more taps. Given where the hardware is, the
scaling logic is the same in both products."
As ATI GPUs typically use four or six tap lanczos scaling, that was the
educated guess I put into the article as I very much doubt ATI would create
an all-new scaling system just for Xenos.

?!?!?


What the hell is going on?



If this is true, that means MS purposefully lied in that Ars Technica interview :lol
 

Barnolde

Banned
That Arstechnica interview was really impressive, or at least it seemed to be. ANA/HANA not being scaling chips, but rather Xenos doing the upscaling completely shits all over that interview.

I was shocked when I read this on XS a while back and it certainly makes me think even less of MS.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
jet1911 said:
And who is Amir?


That Scott Henson quote comes out often. Amir Majidimehr, Corporate Vice
President, Microsoft Corporation, Consumer Media Technology Group, Mobile
and Embedded Devices Division


He posts at AVS a decent amount.
 

Relix

he's Virgin Tight™
Yeah it works well =P.

But what the hell is ANA, a video encoder? What videos does the 360 encode? Shouldn't it be a video decoder? Then again its useless since the CPU can very well handle HD 1080p video decoding. I still say ANA is the scaler... but whatever, the scaling is a charm
 

drohne

hyperbolically metafictive
yeah, i read this in some eurogamer piece. it doesn't matter to the end user, but didn't ms send reps to various press outlets with a bravia, a ps3, and a 360 to talk about the 360's scaling hardware? which...doesn't exist, as it turns out?
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
WickedLaharl said:
it scales, it scales well, and that it all i know (understand) and care about

I'm not stating it as a negative, just that its interesting to know about.

That, and the fact MS's PR was either incorrect, or spinning a bit to hurt Sony :p



Anyway, 'Xenos was the first implementation ATI's Avivo display engine and the scaler is used from the display pipeline there.'



http://ati.amd.com/technology/Avivo/pdf/Avivo_Whitepaper.pdf

pipe-big.jpg






The one question that this brings up though is whether this function actually uses GPU resources. If it does ... wow ... Xenos really is a beast.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Relix said:
Yeah it works well =P.

But what the hell is ANA, a video encoder? What videos does the 360 encode? Shouldn't it be a video decoder? Then again its useless since the CPU can very well handle HD 1080p video decoding. I still say ANA is the scaler... but whatever, the scaling is a charm

In this case, they mean video encoder as in the video output controller. Basically, it performs the modifications to the signal depending on what type of output you are using (composite, s-video, component).

Basically, modifies syncs, etc.
 
Read the FRICKIN' Thread before you come on GAF and post such an inflamitory thread. IF you DID you would know what's going on, instead you just created a 20 page ban fest, you du... ... nevermind, please, continue.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
drohne said:
yeah, i read this in some eurogamer piece. it doesn't matter to the end user, but didn't ms send reps to various press outlets with a bravia, a ps3, and a 360 to talk about the 360's scaling hardware? which...doesn't exist, as it turns out?
yeah i was thinking about this. it's pretty funny.

It makes sense, doesn't it? Some games have better performance in 480, like TRLegend. The performance shouldn't be increased unless the game rendered in that resolution natively...

It's neato though. I'm surprised nobody said anything while people were crucifying the PS3 for the same problem.
 

Relix

he's Virgin Tight™
Onix said:
In this case, they mean video encoder as in the video output controller. Basically, it performs the modifications to the signal depending on what type of output you are using (composite, s-video, component).

Basically, modifies syncs, etc.

Ah thanks for clarifying!
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
drohne said:
yeah, i read this in some eurogamer piece. it doesn't matter to the end user, but didn't ms send reps to various press outlets with a bravia, a ps3, and a 360 to talk about the 360's scaling hardware? which...doesn't exist, as it turns out?

Yeah ... that's why this is interesting from a PR perspective.


While the ATI solution obviously works great, MS's PR went a bit overboard on their attack of Sony. :D

While the effect is the same ... to make it sound even better ... the BS'd it to say they had a dedicated scaling chip, when in fact ... its an integrated into Xeno's pipeline.
 

Rat Salad

Banned
In the end does it matter though?
What I'd like to know is how come Sony can't offer the same thing? Aren't they known to be one bad ass hardware company?

$600.00 and it can't even do the same,thats where your issues should lay.
 

Brashnir

Member
Onix said:
Yeah ... that's why this is interesting from a PR perspective.


While the ATI solution obviously works great, MS's PR went a bit overboard on their attack of Sony. :D

While the effect is the same ... to make it sound even better ... the BS'd it to say they had a dedicated scaling chip, when in fact ... its an integrated into Xeno's pipeline.

PR mouthpieces are full of shit. news at 11. :D

edit - Or to put it another way... "Ya know, things scale."
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Mefisutoferesu said:
Read the FRICKIN' Thread before you come on GAF and post such an inflamitory thread. IF you DID you would know what's going on, instead you just created a 20 page ban fest, you du... ... nevermind, please, continue.

:lol

How is this thread inflammatory at all?


MS did BS in that article. That doesn't change the fact Xenos does an awesome job at scaling.



I don't even care about the PR BSing ... other than finding it funny. However, I find the technology quite interesting ... as I'm sure many people here do.
 
Remember the PS3 scaling defenders who kept screaming that high-quality, fast digital scaling is way too expensive to be done in a game console? :lol
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Rat Salad said:
In the end does it matter though?
What I'd like to know is how come Sony can't offer the same thing? Aren't they known to be one bad ass hardware company?

Well, Sony didn't create RSX ... nVidia did. Yell at them :p

It appears Sony did actually include a dedicated scaler of some type. Either it isn't very good, or for whatever reason ... Sony's SDK is not fully utilizing it yet.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Bildi said:
This has been known for as long as I can remember.

What?

I've been under the impression everyone has always thought ANA/HANA did the scaling until this new info came out?!
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
beermonkey@tehbias said:
Remember the PS3 scaling defenders who kept screaming that high-quality, fast digital scaling is way too expensive to be done in a game console? :lol

Well ... the argument was that a dedicated scaler that was fast and of good quality would be expensive.

That may still in fact be true :lol
 

Rat Salad

Banned
Onix said:
Well, Sony didn't create RSX ... nVidia did. Yell at them :p

It appears Sony did actually include a dedicated scaler of some type. Either it isn't very good, or for whatever reason ... Sony's SDK is not fully utilizing it yet.

I understand what youre saying. But for a company that was touting HD,that sure is short sided to leave out some sort of scaler. People with HD sets that don't support a 720 input-what of them? Thats a real deal to swallow,don't you think?

I say this because I was this close to buy a 480p/1080i only set a few years ago. Luckily I waited and picked up a set this year that allows for 720P,but you get the point.

Sony should be held accountable more than Microsoft PR,atleast they don't alienate their consumer with leaving out 720P you know.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
invent a fusion bomb and destroy the solar system


also, in Kentucky, they will let you marry your PS3
 

leehom

Member
This is one of the reasons why I'll never purchase a MS system. So much BS. So many problems with the 360....I won't even start.

On the other hand....good news for 360 owners. I've always preferred ATI over Nvidia GPU's.
 

Bildi

Member
Onix said:
What?

I've been under the impression everyone has always thought ANA/HANA did the scaling until this new info came out?!
I don't know, I was always under the impression the GPU did the scaling and subsequent updates have improved its ability to scale and yeah... that's about it.

I remember ANA being talked about by Microsoft - I guess I just ignored what they had to say and in my head kept the idea that the GPU does the scaling??? :lol
 

soco

Member
not that it matters at all, but don't some video encoders typically do some level of scaling from the frame buffer to the output resolution. i don't really know the hardware details, but in the ones i've programmed, you basically set it up and it could take almost any framebuffer you through at it and handled the video signal encoding in whichever standard you asked for.

i worked on a simpler one in the last few years where we actually had to have a framebuffer of the correct size for whichever standard we were using, which made it fun for our UI resources.
 

soco

Member
Stinkles said:
also, in Kentucky, they will let you marry your PS3

it's true, i'll be engaged as soon as the price drops. sadly, you have to go to West Virgina to marry a Wii (or a relative).
 

drohne

hyperbolically metafictive
pr lies are commonplace enough, but this lie is interesting in that there wasn't any obvious point in telling it. my only theory is that ms really wanted to drive home the idea that 360 possessed functionality that ps3 lacked, and didn't think journalists would understand unless they carried a little chip around and showed it to them. "our box has got one of these in it -- their box hasn't."
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Rat Salad said:
I understand what youre saying. But for a company that was touting HD,that sure is short sided to leave out some sort of scaler. People with HD sets that don't support a 720 input-what of them? Thats a real deal to swallow,don't you think?

I'm a little confused. You say you understand what I'm saying ... and then in the very next sentence say Sony is short-sighted for leaving out some sort of scaler. :p

There is some sort of scaler in the PS3.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
PC Gaijin said:
Good ol' Raistlin. Glad to see your "OMGWTFBBQLOL!!??11" style posting has returned.

:lol


Come on, I didn't use CAPS. :D

Just my usual ellipsis and totally unnecessary (1337) punctuations.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
drohne said:
pr lies are commonplace enough, but this lie is interesting in that there wasn't any obvious point in telling it. my only theory is that ms really wanted to drive home the idea that 360 possessed functionality that ps3 lacked, and didn't think journalists would understand unless they carried a little chip around and showed it to them. "our box has got one of these in it -- their box hasn't."

Agreed.

Even if the functionality is the same, having it integrated into the GPU just doesn't create the same sort of headline a 'dedicated scaler' does.

What ends up being laughable however, is that MS actually got things reversed. It now appears that the PS3 does have some type of dedicated scaler, and we know the 360 doesn't :lol





Regardless, my respect for ATI has gone up even higher. Tight little design.
 
Onix said:
I'm not stating it as a negative, just that its interesting to know about.

That, and the fact MS's PR was either incorrect, or spinning a bit to hurt Sony :p



Anyway, 'Xenos was the first implementation ATI's Avivo display engine and the scaler is used from the display pipeline there.'



http://ati.amd.com/technology/Avivo/pdf/Avivo_Whitepaper.pdf

pipe-big.jpg






The one question that this brings up though is whether this function actually uses GPU resources. If it does ... wow ... Xenos really is a beast.
Oh shizzzznit! Epic :0
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
InterMoniker said:
Oh shizzzznit! Epic :0

Just to note ... that is a general pic ... and we really don't have much info on exactly what info from the whitepaper is applicable.


Regardless, it's obviously a great design.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
BTW - Sorry all :lol


I normally respond to posts one at a time instead of cramming responses to multiple people in one post.




How else can I get my post count so high? :p









Hitler Stole My Potato said:
But that wouldn't bump....bump....bump the thread.

posting 3 times in the span of a couple minutes doesn't really help with bumping. That is definitely not my intent.
 

Rat Salad

Banned
Onix said:
I'm a little confused. You say you understand what I'm saying ... and then in the very next sentence say Sony is short-sighted for leaving out some sort of scaler. :p

There is some sort of scaler in the PS3.

I was refering to what you said of the Nvidia card in the PS3,sorry if I wasn't clear on that.
Whats astonishing is that with all the firmware updates they are doing for the PS3,that they don't address tvs that don't support 720P. Add an update that would scale 720P to 1080i for these people.
 
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