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donny2112 · Oct 19, 2007

unomas said:
PS3 Madden still outsold Wii Madden with 3 million less consumers to gobble it up on hardware that costs twice as much.

It also had a returning userbase that was used to buying a yearly Madden. As mentioned in last month's thread, EA needs to Nintendo-ize Madden and come out with a Wii Football 08 title. Similar to what they did with MySims. I think that would help them out a lot on the Wii.

donny2112 · Oct 19, 2007

Fatghost said:
Didn't even FF12 sell less than FF10, despite a much larger PS2 userbase?

For some reason, the first Final Fantasy out on a PlayStation tends to have the largest sales. From there, the sales just go down.

schuelma · Oct 19, 2007

donny2112 said:
It also had a returning userbase that was used to buying a yearly Madden. As mentioned in last month's thread, EA needs to Nintendo-ize Madden and come out with a Wii Football 08 title. Similar to what they did with MySims. I think that would help them out a lot on the Wii.

I think I know where you're going and I agree. EA should completely re-brand the Wii versions of their sports title. Call Madden 09- "Madden WII 09" Call Tiger Woods "Tiger Woods Wii". Have Tiger Swinging a remote.

Make it clear right from the box that you're getting a different experience from the 360/PS3 versions.

unomas · Oct 19, 2007

schuelma said:
Do you really want to go there re: PS3 software?

Well if we really want to go there we could say Wii and PS3 software are both selling terribly.

speculawyer · Oct 19, 2007

LunaticPuma said:
Does anyone know the Wii attach rate? I also don't see much Wii software moving aside from Wii play. I feel that Nintendo is selling a lot of consoles, but not a lot of software.

September was a weak month for Wii software releases but your general feeling is correct, IMHO. People are buying Wiis largely to play Wii Sports and Wii Play. Of course the quality of Wii software has been kinda low, so that probably contributes.

JoshuaJSlone · Oct 19, 2007

Lunatic Puma said:
Does anyone know the Wii attach rate? I also don't see much Wii software moving aside from Wii play. I feel that Nintendo is selling a lot of consoles, but not a lot of software. Of course this will pick up when bigger games come out, but will it be able to match DS software sales?

As of last month there was a source saying 2.8 for Wii and 3.0 for PS3. I don't recall the X360 amount, and searching the forums is a pain because searching for the terms
2.8 3.0 tie ratio
everything but ratio gets cut out.

BboyDubC said:
Blue dragon - 33,752 (second month)
Eternal Sonata - 37,810

Can we get LTDs on BD? The japanese developers are just stupid for not bringing these out earlier. 360 owners would have eaten these alive in the June/July months. Releasing ES in September? Straight retarded.

No credit to the American publishers?

speculawyer said:
September was a weak month for Wii software releases but your general feeling is correct, IMHO. People are buying Wiis largely to play Wii Sports and Wii Play. Of course the quality of Wii software has been kinda low, so that probably contributes.

I really think these hunches are blown out of proportion. The thing comes with a pack-in game, has a late-loaded hardware base (average user hasn't had it as long), and still the tie ratio isn't miles behind the competition. Either there aren't a lot of these Wii Sports & Wii Play-only buyers, or there are a lot of other heavy buyers counteracting their effect.

donny2112 · Oct 19, 2007

schuelma said:
I think I know where you're going and I agree. EA should completely re-brand the Wii versions of their sports title. Call Madden 09- "Madden WII 09" Call Tiger Woods "Tiger Woods Wii". Have Tiger Swinging a remote.

Make it clear right from the box that you're getting a different experience from the 360/PS3 versions.

I think leaving the "Madden" and "Tiger Woods" name in the title could be a detriment. Most people see "Madden" and immediately think they know what it is. To make it clear that it is a new experience (even the characters being made more stylized vs. realistic; see: MySims), it would probably just be better to take Madden out of the title.

If EA wanted, they could still come out with a Madden title that's a port of the PS2 game with waggle. That's what they are doing this year with MySims + the annual Sims 2 multi-platform game coming out on the Wii.

Jokeropia · Oct 19, 2007

unomas said:
Well if we really want to go there we could say Wii and PS3 software are both selling terribly.

Nope. Even if you exclude Wii Sports, Wii software sales are as much better than PS3 software sales as Wii hardware sales are better than PS3 hardware sales.

donny2112 · Oct 19, 2007

JoshuaJSlone said:
I don't recall the X360 amount,

6.3 through August. I wouldn't be surprised to see it go > 6.5 through September, though. :lol

MirageDwarf · Oct 19, 2007

Couple of year old games are still doing good.

No6 · Oct 19, 2007

Jokeropia said:
Nope. Even if you exclude Wii Sports, Wii software sales are as much better than PS3 software sales as Wii hardware sales are better than PS3 hardware sales.

This doesn't counter what he wrote, since more than terrible can still be terrible. Maybe PS3 sales could be "super terrible" or something.

unomas · Oct 19, 2007

Jokeropia said:
Nope. Even if you exclude Wii Sports, Wii software sales are as much better than PS3 software sales as Wii hardware sales are better than PS3 hardware sales.

So if we take out Wii sports and Wii play what would the Wii software tie ratios look like? PS3 would probably come out on top in terms of tie ratios.

schuelma · Oct 19, 2007

unomas said:
Well if we really want to go there we could say Wii and PS3 software are both selling terribly.

Even discounting Wii Play, Wii software was still significantly better than PS3's.

schuelma · Oct 19, 2007

donny2112 said:
I think leaving the "Madden" and "Tiger Woods" name in the title could be a detriment. Most people see "Madden" and immediately think they know what it is. To make it clear that it is a new experience (even the characters being made more stylized vs. realistic; see: MySims), it would probably just be better to take Madden out of the title.

If EA wanted, they could still come out with a Madden title that's a port of the PS2 game with waggle. That's what they are doing this year with MySims + the annual Sims 2 multi-platform game coming out on the Wii.

That's a risk though- there's a chance it might be completely ignored.

donny2112 · Oct 19, 2007

JoshuaJSlone said:
The thing comes with a pack-in game, has a late-loaded hardware base (average user hasn't had it as long), and still the tie ratio isn't miles behind the competition. Either there aren't a lot of these Wii Sports & Wii Play-only buyers, or there are a lot of other heavy buyers counteracting their effect.

When I bought a Wii, I got the Wii + Wii Play only. I later got more games, but I wouldn't be surprised if a large part of all Wii buyers in the U.S. since January bought the Wii + Wii Play only when they first bought the system. For the average consumer, buying a system with a pack-in game and another game is enough to last for a while. Most don't buy 5 games when they buy the system.

donny2112 · Oct 19, 2007

schuelma said:
That's a risk though- there's a chance it might be completely ignored.

There's a chance MySims could've been completely ignored. If EA is serious about wanting to reach the other billion American Football fans who don't buy Madden each year, they can't just keep doing what they've been doing. On a more immediate level, they are not going to sell as many football games per year as they're used to without hooking the Wii userbase. They have to do something, and throwing a generic Wii Madden into the bucket with every other platform on the planet is unlikely to see a ton of success.

unomas · Oct 19, 2007

schuelma said:
Even discounting Wii Play, Wii software was still significantly better than PS3's.

Overall as it should be with 3 million more users, but I was talking tie ratios. I guess that will be left untouched.

Opus Angelorum · Oct 19, 2007

So without getting too far ahead of ourselves, what kind of numbers do people expect the PS3 to get in October/November for the price drop to be deemed successful?

donny2112 · Oct 19, 2007

unomas said:
Overall as it should be with 3 million more users, but I was talking tie ratios. I guess that will be left untouched.

Tie ratios are easier to raise on a system with a lower install base. As such, they are not a wonderful measure of success. e.g. The 360 has the highest current tie ratio of the 360/PS3/Wii in Japan, right now.

schuelma · Oct 19, 2007

unomas said:
Overall as it should be with 3 million more users, but I was talking tie ratios. I guess that will be left untouched.

What do third parties care about tie ratio's if the bottom line is that on one platform software sales are significantly worse than on another?

Just as no one is cutting the Wii any breaks against the 360, why should PS3 get any breaks?

JoshuaJSlone · Oct 19, 2007

donny2112 said:
When I bought a Wii, I got the Wii + Wii Play only. I later got more games, but I wouldn't be surprised if a large part of all Wii buyers in the U.S. since January bought the Wii + Wii Play only when they first bought the system. For the average consumer, buying a system with a pack-in game and another game is enough to last for a while. Most don't buy 5 games when they buy the system.

Sure, but neither do people who buy other systems. As stands, even if we don't count Wii Play or Wii Sports, or take into account the younger userbase, its tie ratio is still within 1 of PS3. The difference isn't very big.

BenjaminBirdie · Oct 19, 2007

Opus Angelorum said:
So without getting too far ahead of ourselves, what kind of numbers do people expect the PS3 to get in October/November for the price drop to be deemed successful?

It will be much worse NPD next month with a leaked price drop announcement with no actual $400 model.

November, I have nooo idea.

Nolan. · Oct 19, 2007

Opus Angelorum said:
So without getting too far ahead of ourselves, what kind of numbers do people expect the PS3 to get in October/November for the price drop to be deemed successful?

200k+ I think since thats about what the 360 use to average then again i'm not taking into account running into the holidays so that would be conservative in that instance.

unomas · Oct 19, 2007

schuelma said:
What do third parties care about tie ratio's if the bottom line is that on one platform software sales are significantly worse than on another?

Just as no one is cutting the Wii any breaks against the 360, why should PS3 get any breaks?

Why should they care? Considering that the bulk of Wii software sold is 1st party.....I'd say they should care quite a bit. Considering once again Madden PS3 (3rd party) sold better with a considerably smaller userbase.

The bottom line is Nintendo gamers typically aren't sports, FPS or racing gamers in terms of traditional games. EA can tell Wii gamers until they get blue in the face about the new controls but most Wii gamers won't buy a sports or racing game unless it has Mario on it.

GhaleonEB · Oct 19, 2007

BenjaminBirdie said:
It will be much worse NPD next month with a leaked price drop announcement with no actual $400 model.

November, I have nooo idea.

I think the actual price drop on the existing 80 GB model will offset that, somewhat. I'd say flat to up a touch in October. November/December could see similar sales that the 360 did last year, but I'm not sure they have a big title like Gears to help drive sales.

schuelma · Oct 19, 2007

unomas said:
Why should they care? Considering that the bulk of Wii software sold is 1st party.....I'd say they should care quite a bit. Considering once again Madden PS3 (3rd party) sold better with a considerably smaller userbase.

The bottom line is Nintendo gamers typically aren't sports, FPS or racing gamers in terms of traditional games. EA can tell Wii gamers until they get blue in the face about the new controls but most Wii gamers won't buy a sports or racing game unless it has Mario on it.

Your entire argument boils down to Madden. Name one other 3rd party success on the PS3.

donny2112 · Oct 19, 2007

BenjaminBirdie said:
It will be much worse NPD next month with a leaked price drop announcement with no actual $400 model.

It comes with two days left in October's reporting period. October also has the release of Ratchet & Clank and a price drop on the 80GB model. I think October's weekly average for the PS3 will be higher than September's. It should get back to at least what it sold in August (130K).

Jokeropia · Oct 19, 2007

No6 said:
This doesn't counter what he wrote, since more than terrible can still be terrible. Maybe PS3 sales could be "super terrible" or something.

Actually yes, because the Wii hardware sales are so much better than the PS3 hardware sales that the total amount is anything but bad. If PS3 has sold as well as the Wii, it's software sales wouldn't have been that bad either.

Personally, I think Wii Sports should count partly in the tie-ratios since it is taking up playtime for a lot of people. In Japan where it's sold separately it has a tie-ratio of ~0.6 (and Wii is more popular in USA than Japan) so a fairer number for the Wii US tie-ratio would be ~3.4, which definitely isn't bad by any means. Combine the solid tie-ratio with the massive hardware sales and the total software sales become very very good.

Also, there is absolutely no reason to why Wii Play shouldn't count, as buying the game (effectively a $10 cost) is completely optional. Is it unfair that the game is such good value or what? :lol

Neomoto · Oct 19, 2007

Holy crap at Halo 3's numbers, very, very impressive.

Nintendo sold just 74,9k SHORT of outselling Xbox360, PS2, PS3 AND PSP combined. And with supply constraints. During HALO MONTH! :lol Seriously, this is sick and shouldn't be even possible.

unomas · Oct 19, 2007

schuelma said:
Your entire argument boils down to Madden. Name one other 3rd party success on the PS3.

I use Madden for the simple fact that it's a huge game and neither system seems to have too many other common releases at this point. So the easiest one to look at is Madden. Just look at that chart posted before and show me a traditional sports game that charted for Wii? Glancing over it I didn't see a single one besides Madden.

I don't need to name another 3rd party PS3 success for the simple fact that I think sales are terrible on both platforms when it comes to software.

yoopoo · Oct 19, 2007

Carnival Games and My Sims on Wii sold better than any 3rd party PS3 game :O

donny2112 · Oct 19, 2007

unomas said:
EA can tell Wii gamers until they get blue in the face about the new controls but most Wii gamers won't buy a sports or racing game unless it has Mario on it.

You know, if EA actually told consumers about the new controls in the Wii version and the Family Play aspect, it probably would have helped. Putting it out on gaming websites doesn't reach the average consumer.

Nolan. · Oct 19, 2007

GhaleonEB said:
I think the actual price drop on the existing 80 GB model will offset that, somewhat. I'd say flat to up a touch in October. November/December could see similar sales that the 360 did last year, but I'm not sure they have a big title like Gears to help drive sales.

Thats where I think Ms has been rather clever this year Halo3's sales surge isn't over just yet I don't think. Then we're still yet to see this ''Gears like marketing'' Mass Effect is suppose to have if that does happen then it could drive sales slightly. Then both those titles could stroll into christmas season with still a bit of buzz surrounding, plus 3rd party titles that will be releasing during the period so who knows.

unomas · Oct 19, 2007

donny2112 said:
You know, if EA actually told consumers about the new controls in the Wii version and the Family Play aspect, it probably would have helped. Putting it out on gaming websites doesn't reach the average consumer.

You don't think people know? I think they just don't care and will continue to buy what they've been buying. Traditional Nintendo 1st party titles and non games. Just look at whats selling month after month. Which at this point kind of says to me they still have the traditional Nintendo gamer and now have picked up some non gamers as well. Or maybe the traditional Nintendo gamer likes non games as well. At this point I'm not honestly sure, it will have to flesh out a bit more.

Jokeropia · Oct 19, 2007

unomas said:
The bottom line is Nintendo gamers typically aren't sports, FPS

Tiger Woods 07 and 08 Wii are selling about as well as the 360 versions worldwide (and certainly much better than the PS3 versions). Red Steel sold 1 million.

Brak · Oct 19, 2007

Opus Angelorum said:
So without getting too far ahead of ourselves, what kind of numbers do people expect the PS3 to get in October/November for the price drop to be deemed successful?

October - 90K
November - 315K

I think GTA IV being delayed has really hurt the PS3.

JoshuaJSlone · Oct 19, 2007

unomas said:
So if we take out Wii sports and Wii play what would the Wii software tie ratios look like? PS3 would probably come out on top in terms of tie ratios.

This is a bit rough and estimatey, but since the last decent info was for last month, I'll try and figure it for then.

Compared to the average PS3 owner in August, the Average Wii owner...
Had 1 more Wii Sports
Had 0.6 more Wii Play
Had 0.8 less non-Sports/Play games (~2.2 v ~3.0)
Had had their system 3.8 weeks less

GhaleonEB · Oct 19, 2007

Nolan. said:
Thats where I think Ms has been rather clever this year Halo3's sales surge isn't over just yet I don't think. Then we're still yet to see this ''Gears like marketing'' Mass Effect is suppose to have if that does happen then it could drive sales slightly. Then both those titles could stroll into christmas season with still a bit of buzz surrounding, plus 3rd party titles that will be releasing during the period so who knows.

True. MS is taking a very layered approach heading into the holidays. The "Halo effect" in September was very much built upon the price cut in August. MS wants to keep it rolling now with the new bundles in October and Mass Effect in November. So Halo will continue to be a factor, with these other elements adding to it. I was surprised the Halo/cut got them sales this high in September, so I have no idea where it could go from here. But it sounds like a strategy that could work.

donny2112 · Oct 19, 2007

unomas said:
You don't think people know?

Average consume who doesn't actively anticipate Madden's release each year? They most likely didn't have a clue that they could play the Wii Madden similar to Wii Sports.

Jokeropia · Oct 19, 2007

unomas said:
I don't need to name another 3rd party PS3 success for the simple fact that I think sales are terrible on both platforms when it comes to software.

Again, PS3 software sales wouldn't have been that bad if the PS3 hardware sales hadn't sucked ass.

Reposting this btw to avoid it getting ignored:

Personally, I think Wii Sports should count partly in the tie-ratios since it is taking up playtime for a lot of people. In Japan where it's sold separately it has a tie-ratio of ~0.6 (and Wii is more popular in USA than Japan) so a fairer number for the Wii US tie-ratio would be ~3.4, which definitely isn't bad by any means. Combine the solid tie-ratio with the massive hardware sales and the total software sales become very very good.

Also, there is absolutely no reason to why Wii Play shouldn't count, as buying the game (effectively a $10 cost) is completely optional. Is it unfair that the game is such good value or what?

unomas · Oct 19, 2007

donny2112 said:
Average consume who doesn't actively anticipate Madden's release each year? They most likely didn't have a clue that they could play the Wii Madden similar to Wii Sports.

I would imagine the average consumer would assume that every game features waggle controls as thats what they so heavily advertise to sell the system. I just don't think they care about traditional sports. Some things won't change from the Gamecube days and this is one of them.

donny2112 · Oct 19, 2007

Brak said:
October - 90K
November - 315K

That's cruel. D:

I think it will be significantly higher than that in October and November. PS3 gets software that non-hardcore PS2 owners recognize (Ratchet), a price drop on the 80GB model, and a 40GB model @ $400 for two days in October. In November, they have the entire month to sell the 40GB version.

BuzzJive · Oct 19, 2007

Carnival Games and MySims sold more than every third party PS3 game - and all but 3 3rd party 360 games. Even Boogie in it's second month sold better than most PS3 games. This whole third parties don't sell on Wii thing is getting old.

Does the Stranglehold mega-bomb prove that 360 software doesn't sell? No. Because it's just 1 point of data. So many people here are looking at essentially ZERO points of data and using that as "proof" that Wii third party sales suck. Should there be compelling third party Wii software by now? Yes. Is there? No. Quit "expecting" to see it in the top 10.

It looks to me like third party software is selling about what it should on the Wii. I'd love to hear some reasoning behind why Carnival Games and MySims should be charting higher than Bioshock and Skate.

donny2112 · Oct 19, 2007

unomas said:
I just don't think they care about traditional sports.

Wii Sports makes it plainly clear that they do. They just don't necessarily want it in the fashion that the PS2 had. That's where a Wii Football with stylized characters like MySims comes in.

unomas said:
Some things won't change from the Gamecube days and this is one of them.

Wii Madden, for all of its poor showing compared to PS2, PS3, 360, and Xbox, still had a higher first month of sales than any Madden on the GameCube.

schuelma · Oct 19, 2007

BuzzJive said:
Carnival Games and MySims sold more than every third party PS3 game - and all but 3 3rd party 360 games. Even Boogie in it's second month sold better than most PS3 games. This whole third parties don't sell on Wii thing is getting old.

Does the Stranglehold mega-bomb prove that 360 software doesn't sell? No. Because it's just 1 point of data. So many people here are looking at essentially ZERO points of data and using that as "proof" that Wii third party sales suck. Should there be compelling third party Wii software by now? Yes. Is there? No. Quit "expecting" to see it in the top 10.

It looks to me like third party software is selling about what it should on the Wii. I'd love to hear some reasoning behind why Carnival Games and MySims should be charting higher than Bioshock and Skate.

Good post

Of course now you realize that people are going to use Carnival Games and Sims selling as a negative.

PkunkFury · Oct 19, 2007

donny2112 said:
You know, if EA actually told consumers about the new controls in the Wii version and the Family Play aspect, it probably would have helped. Putting it out on gaming websites doesn't reach the average consumer.

yup

I find it hilarious that they put all that "effort" into a family mode and didn't let anyone know about it. Itnerviews with some game message boards will not get that info out to their target audience. Gamers don't care. They want the traditional Madden, and that is what was advertised. Madden would be selling much better if the Carnival Games audience had reason to think they would enjoy it. What a waste of time on EA developer's part

and aside from Madden, Wii software sales are trouncing PS3 software sales. It isn't even close. Comparing games that release on both systems is tough, since hardcore gamers are likely to pick the one on the hardcore system. But when you just look at software sales in general, and even sales of 3rd party games, Wii is doing much better. This is what a large userbase affords you.

BuzzJive said:
...

It looks to me like third party software is selling about what it should on the Wii. I'd love to hear some reasoning behind why Carnival Games and MySims should be charting higher than Bioshock and Skate.

yup, great post

sonycowboy · Oct 19, 2007

JoshuaJSlone said:
As of last month there was a source saying 2.8 for Wii and 3.0 for PS3. I don't recall the X360 amount,

Those numbers are way off. I'll be providing some reporting early next week on these, but PS3 & Wii had almost identical tie ratios as of the end of last month.

Brak · Oct 19, 2007

donny2112 said:
That's cruel. D:

I think it will be significantly higher than that in October and November. PS3 gets software that non-hardcore PS2 owners recognize (Ratchet), a price drop on the 80GB model, and a 40GB model @ $400 for two days in October. In November, they have the entire month to sell the 40GB version.

I certainly could be wrong on November - I have no idea if people are going to get behind the 40GB pack or not. But, I think October is going to be very bleak.

goldenpp72 · Oct 19, 2007

I believe blue dragon is nearish to 350-400k as of this npd, I imagine it will spike again during the holidays a bit though.

unomas · Oct 19, 2007

donny2112 said:
Wii Sports makes it plainly clear that they do. They just don't necessarily want it in the fashion that the PS2 had. That's where a Wii Football with stylized characters like MySims comes in.

Wii Madden, for all of its poor showing compared to PS2, PS3, 360, and Xbox, still had a higher first month of sales than any Madden on the GameCube.

I guess you missed the part where it says traditional?

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