Josh with a J
Member
-_- anyone else for pvp?
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Destiny |OT5| New patch out Tues., Master Rahool reportedly crying into his robes
- Thread starter The Librarian
- Start date
- Status
everyday math
Banned
There's always one person that says this, goodness.
That's the joke good sir. Along with the fact we're making fun of the K/D. ;p
Smiles and Cries
Member
after Xur purchases I'll get some sleep
SlenderBeans
Member
HalfBakedProphet
Member
53 motes, 51 coins
Don't disappoint me Xur
Don't disappoint me Xur
jadedm17
Member
What exactly? Sometimes i dont even.
Devolution
Member
Get exotic off legendary, wrong class.
Bungie, really, what's your beef.
Bungie, really, what's your beef.
AusRoachman
Member
Damn 25 hrs in and I have 3 coins and 13 motes lol.
Bungie needs a begging emote , will sit in the tower all day begging for coins . "Will dance for coins"
Kamina
Golden Boy
Lol, what the fuck
Yup, today was the first day I didn't bother doing the Queen's PvE bounties. They'll probably add some better items to the vendor eventually that require rank 3 rep, but for now the useless gear/rep isn't enough to motivate me to do them.Rank 2 with the queen requires 3000 rep...hard to motivate now that the items are mostly useless
I'm pretty meh right now. Maybe the first DLC will bring the fire back in the game for me but I just feel like I wasted $90 bucks overall. If only we could have seen that all the content would be the same outside of the raid for the whole game and that the loot system would be awful.
This Queen content is just rehashed bounties with some different modifiers on them ugh.
Last time I ever buy digital unless I'm forced too that's for sure.
I hate being so negative since I like the actual game but its just a treadmill that I don't feel like running on right now.
This Queen content is just rehashed bounties with some different modifiers on them ugh.
Last time I ever buy digital unless I'm forced too that's for sure.
I hate being so negative since I like the actual game but its just a treadmill that I don't feel like running on right now.
CouchMaster
Member
Waiting patiently. What he brings with him will essentially decide whether I continue to play Destiny beyond this point.
Marvel
could never
"guys check out these sunbreakers i found in the back"
in that....the cave I kind of get, but because it was RNG did it really hurt?
but the Queens rewards nerf, that just seems vindictive what did it matter if people used it to get their shards...
it seems like they are saying...play it our way or we would rather you not play
the sceptic in me just sees all these nerfs as a paywall content incoming, all they say is "soon"
SlenderBeans
Member
Marvel
could never
Think my exotic engram cost 25 last week.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
I have 38 even after buying Gjallarhorn last week. RIP Treasure Cave.
Back to 25 motes of light after gambling and losing last week too. I think I might just buy that cloak I want this time.
robertsan21
Member
can you buy anything with motes? I thought it was only Strange coins for everything but the exotic engrams that you pay with motes?
I wish the game would recognize your rank and progression. It's the same with bounties related to certain PvP modes that aren't even in the game at the moment. Kinda ridiculous tbh.
pretty sure they're still using their broken challenge system from halo reach
Wearing one of the faction cloaks?
VaultBoy101
Member
I feel like I'm waiting on a date to show up.
It's our third time out, maybe he'll give me what I want this time.
It's our third time out, maybe he'll give me what I want this time.
What level is your alt? They tend to get different bounties kinda until they're 20'ish. Forget which exact level it is when they all get the same ones, 18 maybe?
Kamina
Golden Boy
StrongBlackVine
Banned
You must be repping a faction. You can't do both.
Orthogonal
Member
Not cool man
j/k
Are you wearing a faction class item? Wearing one will make it so any rep earned (Crucible and Vanguard) will go towards your faction rank instead of vanguard/crucible.
Marvel
could never
level 4 right now
everyday math
Banned
At least in this game you can suck, but still help your team mates out.
PointBlank_V
Neo Member
Not to mention the occasional legendary/exotic random PVP reward which seems to lean on those who suck the hardest (again, as Marvel said, nothing wrong with that)
Ban Puncher
Member
What the fuck am I supposed to do with all these Queens Helms?
Devolution
Member
Dismantle for materials.
Storm Raider
Banned
Ha! I had 5 last night. Just dismantle and move on.
Orthogonal
Member
I can jump off the ledge and let teammates revive me all day. I would probably be good at that. Maybe even the best!
Marvel
could never
He shall be dry humped in a darkened alley upon his return, it is how it must be.
Well I admit I enjoy Destiny alot, but I had a feeling this would happen. I'm lucky enough to work from home and had the past 2-3 weeks to spend way to much time playing the game. But at this time, I am burnt out from the repetitive way this game is played, and how Bungie expected the end game (before dlc) to go. Only so many times I can run a strike, or mission before it just becomes boring. One thing that kept me coming back new gear, but at lvl 27-28 depending on what I have equipped, I don't really have a reason to play. I missed out on the Queens Wrath gear to get shards, and at the current rate to get them (I believe I need like 40) it gonna take forever to get. As far as the pvp goes its only fun for a handful of games. I wish there was matchmaking for the raid or the nightfall. I got a handful of people I play with but no one is on at the same times, or is past the lvl 24 grind.
Anyway game is fun, just was hoping for more content. Gonna be tough not trading it in before the dlc drops.
Anyway game is fun, just was hoping for more content. Gonna be tough not trading it in before the dlc drops.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Doesn't matter as long as it is legendary. You will replace all of it with raid gear if you want to hit lvl 30 anyway.
Look at them longingly and remember that roughly 24 hours ago, they were actually worth something.
Write down the exact date and time you said that, gamechanger.
Why yes. yes I have.In any case, I think it wise to save your legendary engrams now (assuming you have vault space) if a change is made. Yes Hawkian I already know you've been saving yours
I shouldn't have to make this post. Truth be told, I don't. Destiny is already a pretty ridiculous financial success, and with the OT number incrementing upward as rapidly as it is you can probably gauge its popularity on this forum in particular, despite its many flaws and shortcomings.
Destiny doesn't need my help stumbling out of its infancy. It will do just fine, succeeding primarily on being an absolute blast to play with friends, its best-in-class gunplay, and the most addictive core gameplay loop I've experienced since Phantasy Star Online using my delightful 56k modem on Dreamcast.
I'm making this post because I want to be a part of this community. Whether you consider Destiny a "successful social game" or not, a GAF community is forming around it. I've already killed aliens and other guardians with many of you, and I've never not had fun doing it. It might not seem like it to you right now, but the GAF community for Destiny is shaping up to be very strong. I want to see it grow and thrive and follow the game for months, if not years. And I know that some of you will end up wanting to be a part of this and some of you won't.
That's fine. That's the way it's supposed to work. But many, many people are getting this game wrong right now. In large part, the media did. I tried to articulate already why release-day reviews were by definition incomplete, and was rebuked- but many gamers are, at this moment, misunderstanding Destiny's value proposition, limits, and goals. Often, this substantial misunderstanding leads to frustration and disappointment, and even anger. Sometimes even vitriolic anger, much to my discomfort.
it's possible this post could be considered off-topic. It's rather a general treatise on game design instead of a guide on how to play Destiny like my other posts. However, especially if you are someone who feels that Bungie has done a poor job of implementing progression into Destiny, or that the design is broken or not thought-out, I am absolutely begging you to devote the time it takes to read this.
PLEASE READ IF YOU... FUCK IT, JUST PLEASE READ
If having read it all, you still disagree with my evaluation of the game's systems, then I respect that. I'm not claiming to be right, so much as I'm arguing that my understanding of the game is very likely similar to Bungie's, and worth thinking about if you hadn't before.
I was working on the third part of my leveling guide for >20 characters, but I need to make some large revisions to it to counteract some of the widespread misinformation that has cropped up in the OT in the time since the hotfix. In the meantime, I was compelled to put this post together and approach things more philosophically.
There's one section in the second part of my guide about engrams; what they are, and why what's wrong with them isn't exactly what you think. But this post will explore the oft-misinterpreted design elements of Destiny and why many of them are better than they appear.
Let me get it out of the way: the progression system in Destiny is fantastic.
I've learned over the past couple days that it is altogether unwise to use the phrase "loot system" at all. It has loot, sure. Some pretty sweet loot actually. But "loot system" evokes images of the same kind of gear progression found in Diablo, Path of Exile, Borderlands, Marvel Heroes, Torchlight, and many others.
Destiny does not feature one of these systems. Splitting up the design structures this way, Destiny cannot be said to have a bad "loot system," as it does not have one at all. But the progression system in Destiny is fantastic.
Having not yet reached 30, my feelings on it are not completely formed. But I am a hair away from calling it brilliant.
Bear with me.
"Why the fuck should I listen to you?"
I know a lot about game design. To some extent, I'm going to ask you to just take my word for it. I cannot purport to be an expert, as I have never created a game, unless you count my Monster Fighter on the Casio graphing calculator implementation of BASIC. The rest of this section is just trying to convince you to listen, so skip if you've already decided one way or the other.
My credentials would have to be that I've been playing videogames my entire life, and especially that games taught me to read. I learned to read on my parents' 386, navigating a text-based MS-DOS user interface in order to successfully boot up The Simpsons and Another World.
Back in those days, you didn't expect a game to include the concept of a tutorial. You didn't expect a game to necessarily even express its goals to you in words. You just entered the game and started to play.
If the game well-designed, its limits and goals would quickly become apparent, or at least apparent enough that you would want to keep playing. If the game was poorly designed, you would give up, sometimes within a minute of beginning to play, because without proper instruction, these systems would be impenetable- especially as a kid!
At the same time, my parents owned an Atari 2600 and an Intellivision. These two consoles both ignited my love for console gaming and formed an immediate split in my mind between obviously good and obviously bad game design. The design of the 2600 controller was very simple. You had an 8-directional joystick and a button. That's it. The best games leveraged this simplicity- I loved Missile Command and Asteroids. The Intellivsion, on the other hand, had a controller that resembled a modern TV remote, with a numeric keypad and even inserts that you'd slide onto the face of the controller to explain the functions available for each games.
Intellivision's games failed both in variants of complexity and simplicity. Complex games were way too overwhelming for me as a kid, using up to 9 functions and modifiers- and the simple ones were ill-served by the numerous buttons with no function assigned to them as well as an unwieldy controller in general. Though I didn't yet have the words to express it, these two consoles were revealing to me that great game design took advantage of available elements while innovating, and discarding everything that was an impediment to fun.
Why am I talking about the 2600 and the Intellivision? Because I was four. And that was me getting interested in game design. I certainly haven't become less interested over time.
If this is not sufficient to convince you to listen to me, I respect that. But it's all I've got.
Loot and Gear and Engrams and Items
As I said, lots of people, even high-profile ones, have gotten this game very wrong. When I saw this comic, it actually made me feel a little sad, and not for the reason it implies:This comic is funny, and draws an obvious parallel between:
- Unidentified loot drops in Diablo
- Guns found out in the world of Borderlands
- Engrams in Destiny
Engrams do not fulfill this role.
Engrams do not come anywhere close to fulfilling this role.
It is merely not how the game is designed. The fact that it is not designed to utilize engrams in the same way that Borderlands uses randomized gear drops, and Diablo uses unided items, is not a failing of design- though it did create an EXTREMELY powerful psychological association that resulted in an expectation on the part of the player.
This was Bungie's biggest mistake, and I mean it. "Legendary engrams" that are colored purple are more likely than not to deliver non-purple, non-legendary items.
Does this sound at all familiar to you?
Bungie dev notes said:
my guide said:
This was a problem of communication. Nothing is wrong with engrams in Destiny, but there's a lot wrong with "Legendary Engrams" in Destiny. There's a lot wrong with assuming they work the way the comic above implies.
And per the more general point of the comic...
In 1 hour in Borderlands, I might come across 200 guns... zero of which are upgrades for my character and allow me to progress. It is possible. This is nature of RNG.
In 1 hour in Destiny, it is almost impossible for me not to make some kind of progress. If this statement shocks you, if you wonder how it could possibly be true, then I promise that is because you are simply not understanding the game's systems, and not because I'm lying to you.
Unless I spend the hour farming for engrams, at a cave for example, which is equivalent to looking for lottery tickets to turn in- I have earned either:
- Reputation
- Marks
- Upgrade materials
- Gear itself
- Strange Coins
- Motes of Light
Each of these reflect consistent, irreversible progress toward improving my character and his gear.
This is the core of progression in Destiny. Not. Engrams.
With these available tools, during a play session of any duration, I can make legitimate progress, while essentially only ever playing the content I feel like playing at any moment.
In contrast, let's take a step back and look at what many have interpreted to be an oppressive, omnipresent dictator that controls your Destiny experience: RNG.
What the fuck is RNG?
Please bear with me or even skip this section if you know all this already, but I've seen multiple people ask.RNG stands for random number generator.
The easiest way to represent the role RNG plays is to imagine a six-sided die. If you roll a die, it will land with one side up- the number on that side is your result. Obviously, in modern games these dice rolls are performed digitally, with dice having dozens, hundreds or even thousands of sides.
When you're playing a game that features RNG, you're constantly hoping for a "lucky roll." Which is to say- the die lands on the right number, you get an awesome item or material that your character can use, or even needs, to progress.
RNG in this sense is a motivating factor, even though it is by nature antagonistic. When the chances of acquiring an item are random, it artificial gates the progression of a player behind probability. Usually, this results in an indeterminate but lengthy period of repeating content to continue "rolling the dice."
For example, if you know that a boss has a chance to drop a very rare item, each time you kill him, the die is rolled. If there is a 1 in 10 chance that the boss will drop the item, then logic might dictate that by killing that boss 10 times, if the boss did not yield the item within the first 9, killing him one more time will cause it to drop.
Unfortunately, the sensation that this is going to happen is actually a psychological illusion known as the gambler's fallacy. The chance of getting the "lucky roll" is not incremented with each roll; it is simply a 90% chance, each time the boss is killed, that you won't get what you want, and this is true no matter how many times you kill it.
Why would anyone put up with this? The merit of a heavily RNG-based system is the sensation produced when you do hit the lucky roll. This is exactly the method by which a slot machine operates in Vegas. The majority of the pulls of the handle result in nothing, or a tiny gain which does not recoup your expenditure. But a jackpot, man, a jackpot feels fucking incredible. A jackpot encourages you to keep putting in more money. A jackpot encourages you to return to the slots, even if the next day you don't get one. And the day after that you don't get a jackpot either. And the next day you bring two friends to the slots, and they both get jackpots, and you don't get one for a third time in a row. Just the idea that it could happen at any time is compelling enough to chase.
This method of motivating players is very effective. It is often the primary system by which players are expected to progress through a game that involves "loot." If the loot in the game is desirable, its content is fun to play through, and the other elements at work (presentation, graphics, controls, sound design, etc.) are solid, this is a perfectly reasonable way to make a game. It could be extremely enjoyable and rewarding to play despite the fact that the odds are stacked against you as an individual nearly every step of the way.
With the exception of drops from its raid, needed to get only from level 29 to 30, Destiny does NOT utilize one of these systems as its primary method of reward and progression.
I would contrast an RNG-based reward system with a token-based reward system.
In our above example with a token-based system, each time you killed the boss, you'd get one token. After acquiring 10 tokens, you'd be able to exchange them for an item that guaranteed you progression for a character. This means that instead of having a 1 in 10 chance and thus the expectation of reward after clearing the boss 10 times, you would literally need to clear the boss exactly 10 times- no fewer, and no more- and then claim your reward.
There are benefits and drawbacks to this system. For one, this system results in what is often dubbed "grind."
I sort of take issue with that, because tokens can be awarded in many many ways. Back in the day, IMO grinding was what you did in a JRPG when you hit a roadblock because a boss was too high-level for you- so instead of overcoming the boss with skill, you turn around and kill the same enemies over and over again to level up until you clear the arbitrary gate and can defeat the boss. Or to go back even further, in Castlevania 2, if you need to purchase an item to simply move to a new area but lack the requisite hearts, you'll be killing the same enemies endlessly that are safe, again until you had enough to clear the gate.
At its worst, a token-based progression system can create the sense of being manipulated, rather than enjoying yourself. This is an artificial elongation of game time in exactly the same way that RNG is an artificial elongation. The true difference is that a token system makes you aware of the exact number of times you need to repeat something before progressing.
The benefits of a token system should be obvious. With RNG, while one player might get something on their first or second try, another might try for 30 times without seeing a glimpse of it. With the token system, both need simply beat the boss 10 times to be able to progress themselves.
....Now, I'm going to rant at you for a minute by way of example.
When I play RNG based games with my friends, I have god-awful luck. I never get shit. I'm "that guy" whose friends will both get awesome, drool-worthy unique items at the same time while I get nothing or an item that is weaker than the one I have equipped. In Diablo II, I experienced such a scarcity of upgrades for my elementalist that when I encountered the Horadric Staff and realized I'd need to give it up to progress, I immediately started another character and got all the way up to that point to mule it over to my elementalist to actually continue using. I'm pretty sure I was still rocking it at the start of Act IV. Things were even worse for me in Monster Hunter Tri. I love Monster Hunter. The core gameplay loop is satisfying, the combat feels amazing, it's almost purely skill-based, and the co-op multiplayer is incredibly tense and memorable.
However, Monster Hunter features incredible oppressive RNG. In order to craft a new armor set, I needed to kill the monster Rathian in order to craft the individual pieces. For the chestplate this required a rare drop from Rathian called the Rathian plate. This drop is absolutely notorious among early players of MH Tri. It has something like a 3% drop rate. I killed fucking Rathian... so. Many. Times. Rathian dead. Rathian DEAD. RATHIAN RATHIAN RATHIAN RATHIAN RATHIAN I'M SICK OF THIS FUCKING DRAGON. It just wouldn't DROP for me. Like I explained above, the number of times I killed him didn't actually matter. The dice was rolled, each kill, and that's it. To this day, my save file on Monster Hunter Tri exists with my character featuring an incomplete armor set, missing the chest. This actually stopped my progression, because the highest level hunts required that tier of armor. My experience with Monster Hunter terminated with my decision that its RNG was too steep for me to tolerate with my luck, long term.
This is not a problem in Destiny. At all.
I'm going to really emphasize this point as it has affected my experience so goddamn much: Destiny is made for players like me with shitty RNG luck.
Destiny, like many games, handles its progression at endgame through gear. However, it is primarily a token-based system with light RNG scattered throughout.
RNG rolls happen all the time in Destiny. They occur when you kill an enemy. They occur when you decrypt an engram. They occur when you complete a PvP match or Strike. They occur all the time.
The key here is that these dice rolls are never required for progression. They're icing. They're gravy. They're wonderful, when you view them as a mere bonus regularly awarded over the course of playing the game as intended, rather than any kind of primary route to progression.
This difference in core progression between Destiny and games like Diablo and Borderlands is so basic to its design that it permeates almost every area of the game, from PvP to the toughest PvE co-op content, to solo farming.
If you, instead, approach Destiny as though it has the same kind of RNG-based loot system, you may still be able to enjoy it. It won't change the gunplay; it won't alter the amazing-looking skyboxes or make the music sound any different. However, I also won't be surprised if you have a poor experience. If you spend an enormous amount of time farming one area for engrams- hours- and receive no upgrades, and then become frustrated as a result... my reaction is not, "holy shit Bungie's RNG sucks!" but "you could have spent those hours progressing concretely toward gear you actually wanted, but instead choice to work against yourself."
At this point in the discussion, I am usually told that I am instructing players to play the way that I want them to. "Shouldn't I," they ask indignantly, "be able to play how I want?"
This term, this phrase, has become so corrupted in recent years that I need to spend some time addressing it.
Play How You Want
I am a strong advocate of "play how you want." Maybe the strongest you'll find on these boards. If there is an avenue for having fun that is possible to pursue in a game, regardless of whether or not it was intended by the developers or it's what the majority of players are doing, I understand and encourage players to take it! Let me give you an example. I love Starcraft, it's one of my favorite games of all time. It had incredible polish and presentation, backed up by some of the tightest RTS action ever seen. The campaign was slick and compelling, and each of the three races was interesting. I beat the campaign and then began seeking out competitive multiplayer matches.
I played plenty of your typical FFA, 2v2, 4v4 matchups and had fun on many maps for many matches. I also found myself drawn to what was call "Use Map Settings" games, or UMS. UMS games leveraged the powerful tools included with Starcraft to empower the community to create modified maps, modified gametypes, and even completely new gametypes or minigames. Some of the popular UMS gametypes were Tower Defense, MOBA-prototypes, and my personal favorite, Madness.
In Madness, you were assigned or chose a single one of Starcraft's unit types. This unit would constantly respawn at a base location. Merely by waiting you'd accrue more and more. You could then use massive groups of them to go attack and fend off attacks from other players. One might have Mutalisks, another Scouts, and another only Dragoons. These matches were incredibly unbalanced, unpredictable, and ridiculous. But I loved them. Over years, I realized that a majority of my competitive time was spent in Madness matches. More than other UMS maps, and even more than "classic," dev-sanctioned competitive Starcraft.
One time, I had a friend over who was a hardcore ladder ranked Starcraft player. I just happened to be in the middle of a Madness when he got into my room. He asked what I was doing and I explained how madness matches work. He immediately decried this as stupid and a waste of time. He even insinuated that playing as I was was ruining the real Starcraft for legitimate players like him.
He was telling me that I couldn't play how I want. I told him in so many words that this was bullshit, because I was having fun. The issue was no more complicated than that to me, and it never has been.
Now let me explain what "play how you want" doesn't mean. To do this, I'm going to have to use a story I have dubbed "The Allegory of the Goomba."
Continued...
BigJonsson
Member
ooooo legendary pulse rifle
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