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BlackSalad · Jun 28, 2014

Pand said:
I think people have forgotten what blackface actually entails. It's not about applying dark make-up (although many people seem to get riled up about that fact alone, which is just ridiculous), it's about portraying an offensive stereotyped caricature of a race of people.

That's not blackface. That's a blackened face. If you can't see the difference between the two, you're either being overly sensitive or deliberately obtuse.

You should of cropped half of that picture if you wanted to make your intended point.

GQman2121 · Jun 28, 2014

block tower said:
but they both look the same, why don't you see two zwartes? theres no difference in the blacface other than the context your claiming, except both origins of the blackface end up looking like the same exact blackface. it's kind of bizarre to argue zwarte isn't based off a black person given zwarte in blackface ends up looking just like blackface characters from America that were based of african americans.

Just give up. There's no point. People are going to see what they want to see. It's like the gaming side in here with this shit.

boiled goose · Jun 28, 2014

BlackSalad said:
You should of cropped half of that picture if you wanted to make your intended point.

Exactly... the totem pole is evocative of savageness, exoticism, ignorance, and otherness.

Like i said... hard to avoid falling into these stereotyping and offensive traps.

itsgreen · Jun 28, 2014

block tower said:
but they both look the same, why don't you see two zwartes? theres no difference in the blacface other than the context your claiming, except both origins of the blackface end up looking like the same exact blackface. it's kind of bizarre to argue zwarte isn't based off a black person given zwarte in blackface ends up looking just like blackface characters from America that were based of african americans.

I am not claiming it isn't based on Africans. But that is what context and history is. For the Dutch the Zwarte Piet character has transcended its roots and is its own entity. We see them as two distinct entities. Two distinct entities that aren't being perceived as related.

And I am not saying people can't recognize they are both black. Or even that they can guess that they share similar origins. But in practice, in the real world, they have different meaning. For us Zwarte Piet doesn't have anything to do with slaves or even black people. It just isn't perceived in that way.

And I do understand that is fucking weird to understand. Because they look similar. It just is.

DC R1D3R · Jun 28, 2014

block tower said:
isn't there a whole holiday based around black face in Sweden?

EDIT: it was the Netherlands. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet

wtf a yall doing in the Netherlands with this shit? unreal.

OT: yeah it's pretty weird he was just allowed into the event like that. some people are just ass clowns.

lol

yes, the celebration of the black-a-moors. When black men and later arabians took over spain, portugal and naples and had great influence throughout the whole of europe, which was a fucked up place before they came.

The moors built the first university in europe (spain) and led europe (GOLD) out from the dark ages.

whenever you see these faces on flags or buildings, you know that black people used to run that place.

self explanatory

black men have always had a way with women and never had to pay for the pum pum

because when you arrive in town dressed like this....

women flock ya....

and with all this gold (unlimited amounts of untapped african gold)

black guys started to become a problem for the white european males

before europe was financially stable, they weren't racist cunts like they are now and the black man was basically their god. once europe could stand on it's own in trade, the black man became a problem to them. the black man's large penis became legend, women couldn't get enough of them. and the fact that these guys were packed to the brim with gold and pro-creating with all and whomever they chose, the white male european aristocrats feared that the white skin tone of europe would transform into a let's say "darker complexion".

yeh, so they had enough of that shit. but had to bide their time (grin and bare it).

once the portuguese and spanish white rulers found out where large deposits of african gold was (mali and ghana), they devised a plot to kick all the moors out and at the same time steal and rob all their gold.

FLASHBACK - vasco da gama, exploring(lol gold searching), murder in the name of jesus christ, stealing, slavery and racism.

FASTFORWARD - these guys!

a little history reveals everything.

Gustav · Jun 28, 2014

I am not trolling here, I want to understand. If somebody paints his face black, why is this automatically mockery? Is it because it's a racial feature, something that cannot be changed about the person?

Or maybe it's because no matter your intention (let's say, just straight up, you simply want to roleplay a character that is black), people will feel mocked irregardless and that's why it's automatically a mockery?

wsippel · Jun 28, 2014

boiled goose said:
Truly fucking mindblowing.

Racism does not require history. Mocking a race even if it has never existed in your country is still not ok.

The fundamental flaw in your line of thinking is that while mocking a race obviously is racist, painting your face black doesn't necessarily mean you mock a race and is therefore not inherently racist. This distinction is extremely important.

boiled goose · Jun 28, 2014

Gustav said:
I am not trolling here, I want to understand. If somebody paints his face black, why is this automatically mockery? Is it because it's a racial feature, something that cannot be changed about the person?

Or maybe it's because no matter your intention (let's say, just straight up, you simply want to roleplay a character that is black), people will feel mocked irregardless and that's why it's automatically a mockery?

What shade of black do you use?

perkyz · Jun 28, 2014

It's always really really weird seeing american people freak out about the dutch holiday 'sinterklaas' where people dress up as 'zwarte pieten'. But I assume if you call it a dysphemism like 'blackface' it kind of makes it worse. But yeah it really is a non issue here in belgium/netherlands. Pretty much everyone celebrates it here, both 'black' and 'white' families. People don't even understand why there is outrage about this in foreign countries. Maybe that's even a sign of deep integration and the opposite of racism. Having a holiday celebrated by all, and nobody even makes the connection with slavery. I guess in america people are way more sensitive about this and they automatically make the connection with their past.

And yes some 'rightwing' parties are on the uprise. But that's because they provide an 'anti-political' voice. Nobody votes on them because of racism or because they hate people with a different skin colour. People vote on them because they are populist, and because they say they can provide jobs or lower the debt... People nowadays vote because of their wallets, not of their 'personal beliefs' or conviction. Politics is really about money, nobody cares about racism.

And if real racism is on the rise, which I admit is in some parts, it is racism against middle eastern people and not against black people. But this has always been there, because there have always been extremist nut jobs on both the left and right wing. While I despise these people these are really the very small minority which I guess also exist in the USA.

tskeeve · Jun 28, 2014

wsippel said:
Because outside of France, we hardly have any black people in Europe. Mainly because we didn't import any as slaves.

Most of France's black population is a result of immigration, not importation of slaves.

WTF am I reading in this thread. "It's my culture so it can't be wrong!" That's perfectly fine that you have a tradition, but you have to accept that it's a racist one. Certainly, white Europeans aren't the most well-equipped to make an unbiased judgment about whether a tradition of theirs offends racial sensibilities.

obin_gam · Jun 28, 2014

I have to ask - do people think the Papa Lazarou character in The League of Gentlemen is racist?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkiix0aveRk

www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2F4ZWTjwTU

www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8DRoX2C0F8

www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBA0PopR_lk

If yes, why and how?
If not, why, isnt it pure blackface?

Hunter S. · Jun 28, 2014

Gustav said:
I am not trolling here, I want to understand. If somebody paints his face black, why is this automatically mockery? Is it because it's a racial feature, something that cannot be changed about the person?

Nothing is automatic about it for most rational people I am sure. Context matters in real life everywhere.

kiunchbb · Jun 28, 2014

This is the first time i heard about blackface. What about people that use make up to whiten their face, it is very popular in asian culture.

What about the Japan subculture that darken their skin?

shacklesmcgee · Jun 28, 2014

itsgreen said:
I am not claiming it isn't based on Africans. But that is what context and history is. For the Dutch the Zwarte Piet character has transcended its roots and is its own entity. We see them as two distinct entities. Two distinct entities that aren't being perceived as related.

And I am not saying people can't recognize they are both black. Or even that they can guess that they share similar origins. But in practice, in the real world, they have different meaning. For us Zwarte Piet doesn't have anything to do with slaves or even black people. It just isn't perceived in that way.

And I do understand that is fucking weird to understand. Because they look similar. It just is.

Could it be that people who don't believe Zwarte Piet is racist believe that because they don't want to be racist?

DC R1D3R · Jun 28, 2014

kiunchbb said:
This is the first time i heard about blackface. What about people that use make up to whiten their face, it is very popular in asian culture.

What about the Japan subculture that darken their skin?

it's in their dna.

wsippel · Jun 28, 2014

tskeeve said:
Most of France's black population is a result of immigration, not importation of slaves.

Of course. I never said they were former slaves.

MMaRsu · Jun 28, 2014

Romez said:
Of course Dutch people wouldn't find Zwarte Piet racist as it's been a tradition in their country for years.

It's clearly blackface though, the character is based off moors, blackface was a thing before Zwarte Piet existed and there are descriptions of him as a 'frizzy haired negro'.

You are right but nobody associates it with racism.

Deleted member 1235 · Jun 28, 2014

block tower said:
so do black people in the Netherlands dress up as a zwarte piet too during the holiday?

Yes. When I immigrated to NL from NZ years 8 years ago, I was walking down the street and all the kids were out dressed up as zwarte Piet. 3 little white boys and a black kid dressed as the character.

I'm from NZ where we have the UK history of blackface (gollywog soft toys etc) so it was crazy wtf for me.

After 8 ish years of viewing the tradition, I honestly don't get 'racist feels' from it. I think it might be harmless but also something I won't ever teach my kids to do. I also get the feeling USA folks are always quick to jump on the Kris Jenner scripted education bullshit and it somehow manages to often come off as both hypocritical and wildly culturally ignorant at the same time.

Basically there is nothing more irritating than being given lessons on how to treat minorities by the yanks due to their proud history of doing it all shitty and wrong, which is why zwarte Piet time is always so great and entertaining on gaf.

BlackSalad · Jun 28, 2014

wsippel said:
The fundamental flaw in your line of thinking is that while mocking a race obviously is racist, painting your face black doesn't necessarily mean you mock a race and is therefore not inherently racist. This distinction is extremely important.

So, for arguments sake, if I wear a swastika on my arm to be ironic, I do not portray racism. Completely false. I could blame people for not perceiving my intention, but I displayed symbolism and cannot control the interpretation.

The fallacy in your argument is that there is context in "blackface", whether it be American, Asian, or from Antarctica. There is context, so there is a standard for which it is to be compared. Is it intentionally racist, perhaps not... Is it wrong to take offense to it? Definitely not.

Pand · Jun 28, 2014

BlackSalad said:
You should of cropped half of that picture if you wanted to make your intended point.

boiled goose said:
Exactly... the totem pole is evocative of savageness, exoticism, ignorance, and otherness.

Like i said... hard to avoid falling into these stereotyping and offensive traps.

I guess you're right. To be honest, I didn't even notice the totem pole because I was too busy looking for a non-offensive picture, which I guess further illustrates the difficulty in finding the line. It clearly isn't caricatural, but it is stereotypical.

perkyz said:
It's always really really weird seeing american people freak out about the dutch holiday 'sinterklaas' where people dress up as 'zwarte pieten'. But I assume if you call it a dysphemism like 'blackface' it kind of makes it worse. But yeah it really is a non issue here in belgium/netherlands. Pretty much everyone celebrates it here, both 'black' and 'white' families. People don't even understand why there is outrage about this in foreign countries. Maybe that's even a sign of deep integration and the opposite of racism. Having a holiday celebrated by all, and nobody even makes the connection with slavery. I guess in america people are way more sensitive about this and they automatically make the connection with their past.

Speaking as a dutchman, I think zwarte piet is extremely problematic because the portrayal is so obviously caricatural in nature. I would say intent is beside the point in this case, if you look at it from an outsider's perspective the problems immediately become apparent.

ICKE · Jun 28, 2014

DC R1D3R said:
lol

yes, the celebration of the black-a-moors. When black men and later arabians took over spain, portugal and naples and had great influence throughout the whole of europe, which was a fucked up place before they came.

The moors built the first university in europe (spain) and led europe (GOLD) out from the dark ages.

black men have always had a way with women and never had to pay for the pum pum
because when you arrive in town dressed like this....

black guys started to become a problem for the white european males

before europe was financially stable, they weren't racist cunts like they are now and the black man was basically their god

FLASHBACK - vasco da gama, exploring(lol gold searching), murder in the name of jesus christ, stealing, slavery and racism.

FASTFORWARD - these guys!

a little history reveals everything.

I did laugh but in all honesty you couldn't write such a ridiculous statement with blatant stereotypes, half truths and generalizations from another point of view without consequences. Stormfront material.

Booshka · Jun 28, 2014

kiunchbb said:
This is the first time i heard about blackface. What about people that use make up to whiten their face, it is very popular in asian culture.

What about the Japan subculture that darken their skin?

At least do it the hard way, like us Americans.

Lambda Pie · Jun 28, 2014

block tower said:
EDIT: it was the Netherlands. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet

looool, the crazy dutch, that sounds hilarious. i gotta visit Netherlands sometime to see this live.

itsgreen · Jun 28, 2014

BlackSalad said:
So, for arguments sake, if I wear a swastika on my arm to be ironic, I do not portray racism. Completely false. I could blame people for not perceiving my intention, but I displayed symbolism and cannot control the interpretation.

The fallacy in your argument is that there is context in "blackface", whether it be American, Asian, or from Antarctica. There is context, so there is a standard for which it is to be compared. Is it intentionally racist, perhaps not... Is it wrong to take offense to it? Definitely not.

Think the other way around. Grab someone who has never seen a swastika and show it to him. "It's a cross thingy" will probably be the response. But he won't think it is racist, fascist or offensive to Jews.

If you don't have the knowledge, culture of what something means. It won't mean the same thing to you.

Kinyou · Jun 28, 2014

Johnny Cage In The Shower said:
I asked this question about month ago, but didn't get a proper response;

Kanye may not be a fictional character but; wouldn't what this guy did fall under the same idea?

There's also that German TV show switch reloaded that parodies the German TV. One of the characters that gets parodied is Bruce Darnell who was part of "Germany's Next Topmodel"

Here's him in the actual show
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBNXn3I-dkM

And here's the parody with a white guy in black face
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z8aZ-CFBAk

I'm kinda split on it. On the one hand you wonder why they just couldn't find a black comedian (then again, there aren't that many in Germany), on the other hand is he clearly mocking the person, not the race.

block tower · Jun 28, 2014

itsgreen said:
Think the other way around. Grab someone who has never seen a swastika and show it to him. "It's a cross thingy" will probably be the response. But he won't think it is racist, fascist or offensive to Jews.

If you don't have the knowledge, culture of what something means. It won't mean the same thing to you.

so ignorance is bliss even if it's definitely ignorance?

Sendou · Jun 28, 2014

I have to say I never knew just painting your face black could be seen as racist act until I saw people considered it as such here.

CrankyJay · Jun 28, 2014

Sendou said:
I have to say I never knew just painting your face black could be seen as racist act until I saw people considered it as such here.

Never mind the fact the guy said "hi Kim! It's me" as if he was Kanye.

Disgusting.

BlackSalad · Jun 28, 2014

itsgreen said:
Think the other way around. Grab someone who has never seen a swastika and show it to him. "It's a cross thingy" will probably be the response. But he won't think it is racist, fascist or offensive to Jews.

If you don't have the knowledge, culture of what something means. It won't mean the same thing to you.

Ignorance is a cop out.. These type of things maybe unintentional, but that does not validate them if they are offensive to others. Intention is different to interpretation, and ultimately one will be judge on interpretation despite intentions.

Dipz · Jun 28, 2014

What an idiot. Kanye would never dress like that or wear that stupid stereotypical hat

Sendou said:
I have to say I never knew just painting your face black could be seen as racist act until I saw people considered it as such here.

When someone thinks that all they have to do is do the stereotypical blackface along with some kind of minstrel show outfit to do a Kanye impression it's pretty racist IMO

itsgreen · Jun 28, 2014

block tower said:
so ignorance is bliss even if it's definitely ignorance? that's only furthering the point that it's offensive but because of someone's ignorance to why, it's considered OK because they don't share the same origin even though it results in the same look.

No. Why is it ignorance?

We don't have the same knowledge and history as you have had?

The only thing ignorant is people projecting their own culture and history on other peoples culture. And claiming they are right because of their history.

shacklesmcgee · Jun 28, 2014

itsgreen said:
Think the other way around. Grab someone who has never seen a swastika and show it to him. "It's a cross thingy" will probably be the response. But he won't think it is racist, fascist or offensive to Jews.

If you don't have the knowledge, culture of what something means. It won't mean the same thing to you.

But if you were to show Zwarte Piet to someone who had never seen him before, most people would probably find it "off".

block tower · Jun 28, 2014

Sendou said:
I have to say I never knew just painting your face black could be seen as racist act until I saw people considered it as such here.

its not the skin color, it's the intent of what your doing by painting your skin a different color.

this is equally offensive as blackface, still not sure how this was made in the last 10 years.. maybe revenge, maybe just a really bad idea that got funded, either way it's a shit movie and racist.

Booty Patrol · Jun 28, 2014

block tower said:
this is equally offensive as blackface

no, it isn't.

Sendou · Jun 28, 2014

CrankyJay said:
Never mind the fact the guy said "hi Kim! It's me" as if he was Kanye.

Disgusting.

I mean in general.

Although I have to say even after watching that video I didn't make that connection. I just can't even imagine what happened in that video. Why would that guy be in an event like that looking like that and doing that stuff? It's just so absurd all around.

block tower said:
its not the skin color, it's the intent of what your doing by painting your skin a different color.

So if you just paint your face black without the intention of anything else but having a black face that's okay then? Of course it wasn't the case here but still I'm interested.

Discotheque · Jun 28, 2014

Wazzy said:
My point was that most people shouldn't be laughing at nazi jokes. Meaning hey, even though we weren't the cause of the monstrosities committed by Nazi's we still know not to laugh at something terrible.

eh i think you can easily laugh at nazi jokes, or terrorist jokes, or slave jokes.

in the context of parody. wasn't stuff like tarantino's last two films or four lions like this?

wsippel · Jun 28, 2014

BlackSalad said:
So, for arguments sake, if I wear a swastika on my arm to be ironic, I do not portray racism. Completely false. I could blame people for not perceiving my intention, but I displayed symbolism and cannot control the interpretation.

The fallacy in your argument is that there is context in "blackface", whether it be American, Asian, or from Antarctica. There is context, so there is a standard for which it is to be compared. Is it intentionally racist, perhaps not... Is it wrong to take offense to it? Definitely not.

Without context, wearing a swastika means nothing, just like painting your face black means nothing. Do you wear the swastika because you are a nazi, because you want to mock nazis, or because you're an actor playing a role? In the first case, you are a nazi. In the second, you're not a nazi. In the third case, you might or might not be a nazi but the swastika won't tell us. Same thing with black face paint. Is the intention to mock black people, mock racism, or is it worn by an actor playing a role? That alone determines whether or not it's racist, not the symbol or face paint itself.

itsgreen · Jun 28, 2014

shacklesmcgee said:
But if you were to show Zwarte Piet to someone who had never seen him before, most people would probably find it "off".

Sure. And that is understandable. I can perfectly understand why people think it is racist. Because they are unfamiliar with Zwarte Piet and what it is, what it means, what it entails.

Yet other people here can't understand that if you do know Zwarte Piet, you might not consider it racist. And you consider Zwarte Piet something different than a offensive racist character.

DC R1D3R · Jun 28, 2014

ICKE said:
I did laugh but in all honesty you couldn't write such a ridiculous statement with blatant stereotypes, half truths and generalizations from another point of view without consequences. Stormfront material.

lol the truth is the truth.

it might hurt some, but the truth is only that.

ask basil - the david attenborough of black history

the truth will set you free (i never lied one time!)

kamorra · Jun 28, 2014

BlackSalad said:
So, for arguments sake, if I wear a swastika on my arm to be ironic, I do not portray racism. Completely false. I could blame people for not perceiving my intention, but I displayed symbolism and cannot control the interpretation.

The fallacy in your argument is that there is context in "blackface", whether it be American, Asian, or from Antarctica. There is context, so there is a standard for which it is to be compared. Is it intentionally racist, perhaps not... Is it wrong to take offense to it? Definitely not.

A swastika is probably the worst example you could use. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

itsgreen · Jun 28, 2014

Booty Patrol said:
no, it isn't.

why?

And you can't use anything surrounding the concepts: history and context.

You can't argue two things, either portraying another race is racist no matter what, or culture, context and history affect if something is racist.

Vermillion · Jun 28, 2014

itsgreen said:
why?

And you can't use anything surrounding the concepts: history and context.

That misses the point, love.

Booty Patrol · Jun 28, 2014

itsgreen said:
why?

And you can't use anything surrounding the concepts: history and context.

You can't argue two things, either portraying another race is racist no matter what, or culture, context and history affect if something is racist.

Are you purposely ignoring several posts in this thread? People are arguing blackface in Europe is racist considering history and context. Fucking pay attention.

block tower · Jun 28, 2014

Sendou said:
So if you just paint your face black without the intention of anything else but having a black face that's okay then? Of course it wasn't the case here but still I'm interested.

sure, many instances you could have black face paint on, but adding bright red lips and white around your eyes is when it likely starts to veer in a bad direction.

dude has "blackface" but it's supposed to be ash from a chinmey because he's a chimney sweep.

itxaka · Jun 28, 2014

wsippel said:
Without context, wearing a swastika means nothing, just like painting your face black means nothing. Do you wear the swastika because you are a nazi, because you want to mock nazis, or because you're an actor playing a role? In the first case, you are a nazi. In the second, you're not a nazi. In the third case, you might or might not be a nazi but the swastika won't tell us. Same thing with black face paint. Is the intention to mock black people, mock racism, or is it worn by an actor playing a role? That alone determines whether or not it's racist, not the symbol or face paint itself.

Not only that but an swastika is such a bad example, seeing as for other cultures still means good things.

We even have swastikas carved in a Roman villa floor in Spain.

So im guessing that shows the point a lot of people is missing, different cultures dont see the same thing in things. For some are good, for some are bad and for same are nothing.

itsgreen · Jun 28, 2014

Booty Patrol said:
Are you purposely ignoring several posts in this thread? People are arguing blackface in Europe is racist considering history and context. Fucking pay attention.

Your history, culture and context. It doesn't work like that.

ICKE · Jun 28, 2014

DC R1D3R said:
lol the truth is the truth.

it might hurt some, but the truth is only that.

ask basil - the david attenborough of black history

the truth will set you free

And do you think it would be appropriate to state that colonial nations went to civilize brutes?

I mean come the fuck on, Europeans are now "racist cunts" but they used to view the black man as their God?

megateto · Jun 28, 2014

DC R1D3R said:
lol

yes, the celebration of the black-a-moors. When black men and later arabians took over spain, portugal and naples and had great influence throughout the whole of europe, which was a fucked up place before they came.

The moors built the first university in europe (spain) and led europe (GOLD) out from the dark ages.

As far as I know, Spain was conquered by people from north Africa, mainly arabs and berbers, not black men.

Zaptruder · Jun 28, 2014

Just realized that black face is pretty much analogous to the swastika...

kamorra · Jun 28, 2014

Is this somewhat famous person a racist?

Yes or No?

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