Not gonna lie, I'll be massively disappointed if the game isn't as dumb in its premise as it looks. If only for the bait-and-switch at the very least and being robbed of some potentially great controversy at the most (controversy is a good thing. Yes, it's somewhat Marxist).
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Hatred - Reveal & Gameplay Trailer
- Thread starter Kiru
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Not gonna lie, I'll be massively disappointed if the game isn't as dumb in its premise as it looks. If only for the bait-and-switch at the very least and being robbed of some potentially great controversy at the most (controversy is a good thing. Yes, it's somewhat Marxist).
Before we played Spec Ops, we were given trailers like this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kIoJnMT3yUI
Without knowing the context of the story or playing the game, most people assumed the game was yet ANOTHER dumb action military 3rd person shooter with your typical Gears of War cover and shoot mechanics. Yet, at release, and actually playing the game, it was different than advertised? Like wtf right!?
Once again history repeats itself. People constantly assuming one thing even without being given the context or playing the game and making sweeping generalizations.
You have no idea if this game will have a good story, good character(s), a point or not. Not from the trailers and not without knowing more about the game.
Yet even so, we justify killing innocents in games "because it's interesting!" Shtick.
I didn't feel discomfort, i just thought it looked like a game designed for shock value
The gaming equivalent of The Human Centipede, unless there is more to it, and the trailer explicitly says there isn't, then it's a game where you left click on people as they run away, and a game where you right click on someone to watch a gory "takedown"
I agree that art is meant to challenge us, or the way we think, or the way we think about something, but like i said before, i don't think this game is one of those, in the same way that reality tv isn't shockingly devoid of anything worthwhile to make us question what we're doing with our lives
Except something doesn't have to be "intellectual" for it to be intellectualized. Ask Jackson Pollock or Marcell Duchamp.
There's nothing "intellectual" about the grass on your lawn but we've managed intellectualize it to the point that we understand the role it plays in our ecosystem and what that means for the survival of our species. I'm pretty sure a nonintellectual something created by a human being does not exist.
Well, you and I feel differently about what we saw. Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. I felt discomfort. You didn't.
On first impressions, it doesn't seem to have any of the critical thought that's gone into the decent shock-horror movies of the 70s and 80s. Looks and sounds like a childish imitation of that whole thing. Maybe something has been lost in translation in both the trailer and the press release, I dunno.
Whatever, it looks like it's missing that 'something' that makes it interesting. Looks banal and shit.
Whatever, it looks like it's missing that 'something' that makes it interesting. Looks banal and shit.
This is true. I have been killing innocents in games for fun since since GTA 3 myself, possibly earlier not sure.This game seems to encalpusalte video game rampages, while having it be the actual purpose of the title. I already do this shit anyway in open world games like Watch Dogs, and never needed much of any justification or prompting. Having a game Built around such carnage inherently, has appeal. If this game is fun, I'll check it out, because I find videogame rampages fun. Not entirely sure what that means, or says about me, but I do know what I find fun. Honestly, despite the graphical bump, this irks me about as much as Hotline Miami, if not less frankly.
And how do you know all that? I can actually answer this one: because you've seen the movies, played the games, watched the TV show perhaps? Hatred? We know absolutely nothing.
Based off this trailer, he says something along the lines of "I hate this world, and I'm sick of the people living in it".
Did you ever think that way? Ever think "ugh people are so stupid or evil sometimes!" Or "ugh this world makes me sick" at times? Ever once? If so, is that not a human emotion? Is that not relatable? I know I think those things sometimes. Only difference is I don't go out killing people through those emotions XD. Yet this character does. Why? I think that's interesting don't you? At least interesting enough to find out why he does such a thing.
BLUElightCory
Member
Killing an armed combatant and killing a sobbing, unarmed woman who poses no threat may technically be the same thing in a purely mechanical "a life is being taken" sense, but I don't think anyone could argue that they are both equal in terms of whether the action was justified. Context and intent absolutely affects how one's actions are interpreted, and there's a huge difference between violence as an act of self-preservation vs. violence as an act of malice. That's all I'm saying.
I think this game has every right to exist, but even as someone who plays more violent than nonviolent games the existence of Hatred offends me purely as a matter of taste. It's because the devs are obviously trying to make something outrageous and offensive, and people will pay them money to do so. It's just reeks pandering and exploitation. Ugh.
To be fair, trailers like that kept me from playing the game for 2 years. If it wasn't for Giant Bomb, I never would have played that game.
Again, first impressions. Hatred had a REAL bad one.
I mean...yeah. Totally. I'm not gonna sit here and deny that violence is the single largest driving force in western modern media, second only to sex. Whether that's a good or bad thing is a much larger discussion, one that's been brushed against many times in this thread, but that doesn't mean that we're going to be okay with every single instance of extreme violence just because other works also use it. Like I said, violence for violence's sake is usually pretty hackneyed, just like titillation for titillation's sake.
And as I said earlier, mechanically, there's some REALLY interesting stuff in this trailer. But it's just surrounded by...honestly, a bunch of stuff that doesn't look interesting/works against our better moral compass. So I don't have any real lust to play it. I don't speak for everyone here though.
Pestilence11
Member
Looks cool, would definitely play.
The first game and a game trailer that has ever made me feel uncomfortable in this way. The first ever. I was watching and I instantly liked the graphics and the style and all the physX stuff looked solid. Gameplay didn't look too bad either and I have no problem with videogame violence really. Then I see the guy slaughter unarmed men and women begging for their lives and for the first time I get instant "feels so wrong in a not funny way" feelings. The game itself looks fun but I'm pretty sure I won't be playing this. Definitely interesting in a way since it is extremely rare for a game to make me feel something like this. And yes, this propably doesn't do a lot in helping to change the perception of videogames to the better...
You sure you pasted the link for the right Spec Ops trailer? Because it opens with the line "I want you to see what you've done" (or one like it). Also, that game had references to Joseph Conrad's "Heart of Darkness" in every interview/news story. If someone paid no attention to the game before release they thought it would be a generic military shooter, my expectations were different.
But what is your point, generally? That we shouldn't be talking about Hatred at all because all we've seen is one trailer? Remember about the developer's message that accompanied it. Altogether it all paints a rather convincing picture of what this game is going to be.
I felt annoyed more than anything, because it doesn't look like a good game, and it looks like it will bring more negative press onto gaming as a whole, it's distasteful and offensive as well
I think if people want to make it, and others want to play it, then that is fair enough, but i don't see any redeeming qualities to the game, and feel that its a cheap marketing trick that will generate controversy and then sales off the back of that
I don't even see how it can be a good game based on the premise, unless it's a score attack game? Get as many points as you can till you die?
Even then the premise is so childish and awful for the sake of being awful that it's only one rung better than games like Ethnic Cleansing anyway
I'll say this much, if his words weren't bookended with putting a gun in the mouth of pleading women and firing, I'd probably be more interested. But that's me. That tells me that the game is more about the violence that you're doing rather than why you're doing it.
I mean hell, blame the marketing, but the trailer is doing nothing for me when it comes to wanting to play the game or wanting to know more. I know this is a small team from eastern europe, but your trailers have to be on point, just ask the Metro guys.
Fuuuuuuuuck I forgot about Ethnic Clensing.
I mean, in his defense, Far Cry 3 opens up with Lewis Carol quotes, the narrative in that game is still dogshit.
Ol No Bones
Banned
Hatred got Haters.
oflaherty01
Member
Am I trying to suggest that using violence is justified in a survival situation? Obviously I am, and I think that pretty much all of society feels the same way unless you disagree with self defense laws. A zombie game doesn't necessarily mean that you should feel empathy, however, if you go mowing down a bunch of people for no reason other than that you want revenge on society then I would fully expect some people to have empathy especially when it comes to executions in such a personal manner. I can see not connecting with the people because they are not real, but I think context is important, and style is important.
This is where I would separate this game from others, as the motives of the character I would be playing don't seem purposeful or constructive in any way. GTA has more of a fantasy style to it where everyone has thought what it would be like to rob a bank, or be a crime lord, where these things are probably not within the realm of reason in the manner in which they play out. People can go on murder sprees in GTA and I have stated it is different due to the cartoony nature of the game and the comedy within the game. It also has a sense of mortality in that as wanted levels raise it feels like a sort of mini game where you are trying to see how long you can survive. This game however, has a serious tone to it, and can be personal due to the executions. I would not say that this game has cartoony graphics, but that could be argued.
I never said that I had an issue with shooting humans in video games, you managed to somehow interpret that out of what I said about the main character's intent. I have an issue with killing for the sake of what the main character's ideology is in this game. Killing for the goal of enacting revenge on society without discriminating in who he targets is what the moral issue with. I always play the good guy in video games and don't go on random killing sprees in games. In GTA I would, but it isn't about that it is about seeing how long I can last with max wanted rating. This game is specifically about killing people, that's the goal of the character. The goal of the game may to be provide a fun experience, but they could have gone about that in a less morally apprehensible way.
Finally, I just find it odd that anyone can make the claim that something doesn't need defended, because everything really does need defended and everything must have a logical explanation to it. I could say that one of my statements doesn't need to be defended because the disputed portion offers little to the argument anyways, and it means that I don't have to defend it for my argument to stand. This is a different case than yours as you must defend your statement for it to have any meaning. Stating that it is a videogame and doesn't need defended is a claim about the property of videogames as a whole. You are either stating that it is art or has another inherent value that I haven't thought of that would prevent needing an explanation. Videogames have not been defined as art currently and so they suffer forms of sensor, and thus you should defend the position that is art. If you must defend it, then it does need to be defended. You must defend your statement for it to have any meaning, which shows a necessity to do something. This necessity to act directly contradicts the original statement that no action has to be taken, which in this case was the act of defending.
I'm just exploring some of the views here on how they justify killing innocents or people in general in games is ok. So far I've got:
- satire
- Not what the game is really about.
- the targets are "innocent people" and not "zombies or aliens".
- "but the enemies in games like Uncharted or God of War were trying to kill me too! So it's ok!
- with context it makes sense.
- characters are interesting enough.
- if characters are boring, games like this is a no go.
This seems to be how we draw our lines in forms of media, or video games in general when it comes to killing as a way of progression through the story, or the main meat of the game.
It's pretty much what the guy who made a brilliant post was going on about.
It got it's 15 minutes though.
For a good hour this morning, literally every one I follow in gaming was talking about Hatred. Many didn't have kind things to say, but still, it was out there in a way that few indie games ever will be.
I mean, it doesn't look great, and the possibility that it might be better than the trailer lets on is not a good reason to stick with something you've made your mind up about. If the game doesn't sell, blame it on the marketing.
Discussing the presence of such violence separated from it's context is an interesting exercise though. It's quite the thing when you think about the fact that, over the course of their full games, you will probably kill more people as Nathan Drake than you will as Nothing Important.
The game is basically, guy hates everyone, and wants to kill everyone
Now, if the game was exactly the same in visuals, tone, mechanics, but it was either
White guy hates black people, wants to kill them all
Or
Misogynist hates woman, wants to kill them all
And the trailer showed only black people or woman being killed, how many of the people saying this game looks interesting would suddenly find it appalling?
Now, if the game was exactly the same in visuals, tone, mechanics, but it was either
White guy hates black people, wants to kill them all
Or
Misogynist hates woman, wants to kill them all
And the trailer showed only black people or woman being killed, how many of the people saying this game looks interesting would suddenly find it appalling?
Well, someone's got to do it.
Him being able to grab the fabric would still impress me and it would still look boring for the most part.
The extra mile for shock value at this point would not matter that much. I save my frustration when such things happen in real life
well if he kills all kind of people it's good to me. of course if he kills only some people it's different. you have to be open minded and kill all gender and races, and fight for death equality
You can use that logic on pretty much every game.
I gather there's no chance we're going to agree on the whole justification thing. I see a world of difference between killing hostile (or downright evil) people/characters in unrealistic, semi-realistic, stylized and often even realistic environments. It all comes down to the context.
I also call bullshit on xandaca's post. Hotline Miami was a brilliant commentary on violence in games and made me think about it a lot. There are ways to approaching this and what Hatred's developers are doing (and, most importantly, SAYING) is not one of them.
No you can't, because in most games you have more context that kill everyone because i hate everyone
Why is killing a mother and father at a park ok, but the two examples i listed not ok? They're both as senseless and horrible as each other
My point is everyone is defending the game as being "art" or "interesting" but it's not, it's just shocking for the sake of it
I think that's the best way you could possibly put it. I was like, "what's the catch? Where's the joke?"
macfoshizzle
Member
fox news will have a field day with this
But that's the thing now isn't it? As long as you have been given a clear objective and are told in where to go and what to do, then this is all ok!
https://youtube.com/watch?v=HpVAhBBJcnk
Or this:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=xktIvkonhtc
It's like in Bioshock, you are given a clear objective on where to go and who to kill. It doesn't matter how you do, just get it done. Oh don't worry these people are bad news so feel free to torture them too if you like!
Tell me something: what is the context in GTA V where in some parts, you have to go around killing cops. "Oh that's easy. You see we have to rob a bank an-...oh". But that's ok right?
For the record: I enjoy all these games never the less because I find either of them fun, interesting, or immersive. Sometimes all of the above depending on the game. But if you're for these kind of games, how are you against this?
I on the other hand am for free speech and all that stuff. This stuff is perfectly ok in my book. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple enough. But to try and demand that these kind of games should not exist because you find them repulsive or it offends you or what not, that TO ME is much more harmful and damaging to the industry than any game could do.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
I think it's part of our right to free speech. They can make it, but frankly the only games that get hit are the good games anymore. GTA, CoD, etc.
You're seeing these games come out in left field or mods that do this whole creativity is justice to extremity and brutality. Even GTA and CoD are under premises and tones of corrupted justice and mobster thinking.
This game feels like it wants to use the freedom of creativity and art with absolute punishment and wicked thinking. I personally don't think it will sell well if it can't justify itself on another level.
When I go out in GTA I feel like I'm in Liberty City fighting to get by with a bunch of evil men. I don't go out in Liberty City and think "oh those two in the park need to die". There's a huge difference IMO.
Even Postal didn't take on this lasting appeal because of its "hatred towards people". Most modern Triple A games don't go that far.
This is like:
GTA is a much easier game to handle and they commit crimes for a goal to become rich. This is like Punisher level meets everything you could muster.
And remember..."No Russian"
I love the logo and the art direction. Everything is black white with the exception of light sources. I get an eery, macabre, atmospheric vibe from it.
The premise is beyond grim. It's gratuitous, straight up evil violence for the sake of it. Whatever. It's obviously meant to shock and start a conversation, which it succeeded to do. I saw the trailer earlier today (thread on /v/, not GAF). I thought it was a good trailer and did what it was supposed to do. People will complain and SJWs will have a field day. Eh...
Good luck to the devs on this one. Hope they don't deal with too much bullshit.
The premise is beyond grim. It's gratuitous, straight up evil violence for the sake of it. Whatever. It's obviously meant to shock and start a conversation, which it succeeded to do. I saw the trailer earlier today (thread on /v/, not GAF). I thought it was a good trailer and did what it was supposed to do. People will complain and SJWs will have a field day. Eh...
Good luck to the devs on this one. Hope they don't deal with too much bullshit.
Scale and magnitude is a thing. Sure you can go around shooting people in GTA and it's like, "who cares, the game certainly doesn't", but I've never seen a game where random helpless people are pleading for their lives and are being executed for no reason in such graphic ways. You can make the argument that if a game did that, there's no way it could be sold on store shelves, and I guess Hatred gets points for revolutionizing needless brutality, but it's still something that a lot of people aren't going to want to associate themselves with.
And no one is saying that the game shouldn't exist or should stop being made. But I'm not gonna buy it, I doubt a huge amount of people are going to either. Censorship no, but people will vote with their wallets.
It would have, it was all over the place this morning.
Ol No Bones
Banned
Its sad that this (IMO) garbage is gonna be how this hobby is characterized. I don't mind controversy but not for the sake of being controversial. I fear for people who actually want to play a game like this.
BLUElightCory
Member
Considering that Fallout example doesn't happen in the actual game, and the God of War example is Kratos fighting hostile, mythological entities, I think the differences should be pretty obvious.
In Bioshock you aren't forced to kill a single human who isn't hostile to you. The GTA thing is a better argument, but even police officers accept the risk of violence as part of their job (I'm not saying that makes killing cops in GTA okay or justified - but it's also not the central focus of the game). The innocents being killed in the Hatred trailer don't meet any of those criteria, and killing them is the central focus of the game. That's the difference.
Naw, it won't be that bad. We got past Rapelay, we'll get past this.
Let's not get crazy, you totally do.
Metal Gear Solid is a better example of that.
nero2082
Member
Destructive Creations dev made a comment on polish site polygamia.pl about their upcoming game :
http://polygamia.pl/Polygamia/1,107...elac_do_niewinnych_ludzi__Przesada_.html?bo=1
rough translation
http://polygamia.pl/Polygamia/1,107...elac_do_niewinnych_ludzi__Przesada_.html?bo=1
rough translation
BLUElightCory
Member
So where does Bioshock force you to murder innocents?
The closest thing I can think of is
Sander Cohen's quest
So let's see:
The plot of this game is "society disgusts me, let's kill every cockroach".
You're totally right. No mentally ill kid with social issues will look at this game and think "hey, I should do the same".
It's not like it has ever happened before.
And videogames haven't ever been blamed for those non-existant events.
Kiru
Member
Good to know.
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