blindrocket
Member
It really was. I wish that they'd do another one.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Magic: the Gathering |OT9| Kaladesh - Cruisin' Down the Street in my 6/4
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
- Start date
- Status
It really was. I wish that they'd do another one.
Giant Panda
Member
Ugh, now cards are going to stick around in Standard too long.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Went to game three against Jeskai control with my Gearhulk Explosion list. I assumed he had Spell Quellers post board so I tried to set up my hand to play around them as best I could.
Fun games though, I think the matchup is strong because I can just keep playing and bringing back hard to remove bodies every turn with impunity and it's hard for them to get ahead of that when they only have 4 exile effects. Plus I play 6 manlands which are hard enough for control to beat. I won game one with 7 cards in hand. Game two I mulliganed and got stuck on the two lands in my opening hand on the draw.
- Turn 4 I play Nahiri which gets Spell Quellered.
- Turn 5 I play second Nahiri and if he doesn't have another counter I can exile the first Queller and reset my Nahiri to 6. Gets Spell Quellered.
- Turn 6 I play Quarantine Field for 4CMC to chain the two Spell Quellers, but it gets Spell Quellered.
- Turn 7 I'm out of hard answers but I can still play Madcap Experiment and flip Noxious Gearhulk to chain all three Quellers. It gets negated. I go to 2 life after his next attack, he taps out for Dovin Baan and passes.
- Turn 8 I'm on 5 lands so I can draw Cataclysmic Gearhulk or exactly another Madcap Experiment and have Noxious Gearhulk be the top card to go back up to 4 and chain all three Quellers and get back into the game. The draw for the turn was Noxious Gearhulk that would have gotten flipped off last turn's Madcap.
Fun games though, I think the matchup is strong because I can just keep playing and bringing back hard to remove bodies every turn with impunity and it's hard for them to get ahead of that when they only have 4 exile effects. Plus I play 6 manlands which are hard enough for control to beat. I won game one with 7 cards in hand. Game two I mulliganed and got stuck on the two lands in my opening hand on the draw.
SigmasonicX
Member
Oh damn, I hadn't realized that the Kaladesh consultants weren't experts or anything, but rather random Wizards employees that happened to be Indians. It's also interesting hearing the stories behind some card art. I hadn't noticed that Renegade Freighter's art has a bunch of people sitting on top of it (like people often do in India).
FreedomFrisbee
Member
Oh, I'm aware.
How have they responded to dropping tournament attendance in the past? Has it been just bans? Did they even really have enough data to say that the quicker rotation was really even the culprit? It's only happened once, and the presence of a ban worthy card should make it hard to properly attribute data to one or the other.
As others have pointed out the sudden nature of this makes it seem like a higher level decision, so maybe action was what they cared about more than data. It would be in line with a lot of heavy handed decisions wizards has been making this year.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Fun, but more of a style review than the actual art.
If only we could be so blessed
Amonkhet is gonna get fucked up like BFZ isnt it?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
They're going to need to get more proactive about Standard bannings. I honestly think if we were on the four block rotation prior to Kaladesh that CoCo would have had to go
shrapnelmagnet
Member
Having zero knowledge of this plane, apart from desert setting and Bolas, I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to preserve it in some way for a future return? Like, despite the tropiness (of desert plane), it's fairly unusual in Magic, no?
I hope there is a sand wurm legend
I bought my terrible Desertwalk dudes (Desert Nomads) already, bring it, lol. Still need my Camels though.SigmasonicX
Member
Having zero knowledge of this plane, apart from desert setting and Bolas, I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to preserve it in some way for a future return? Like, despite the tropiness, it's fairly unusual in Magic, no?
I hope there is a sand wurm legend
I'm pretty sure HK-47 is referring to the set being fucked up in the sense of being mess in card design and development like BFZ, which was caused by the Standard rotation changes.
In any case, they no longer feel the need to hugely change a plane by the end of a block story, specifically to make it easier to potentially return.
They're so touchy about this fuckin' subject man. Like they feel if they ban stuff for the sake of the health of the format it creates this huge negative backlash and they lose way more people than they gain by doing so.
You can't please everyone all the time.
shrapnelmagnet
Member
Oops, totally right. I have been following the discussion, too, lol... And I am cautiously optimistic, but won't be surprised if it's a bit of a shitshow.
I am definitely kinda shocked they have gone back on their "commitment" to the current (previous) standard rotation. Like, how much confidence does that inspire in the statement, "We'll do Expidition-style cards in every set moving forward!"? Or is it really, "The next 3-4 sets will have Expiditions."?
They will clearly, and correctly, do whatever suits their business.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Unless they have a very specific way they process information and come to decisions that's hard to convey and/or teach, I question that conclusion.
Also the lucky part is completely out of place in these kinds of arguments. You can't argue for consistency at the top and luck at the same time unless you genuinely believe variance favours them.
Space for success isn't that small, most people in this thread probably know one or two people who went or are still attending PTs personally.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
How true is this actually, do we know? In Standard specifically. Modern is a different beast because so much of that format is picking "your deck" and piloting it for years
What Wizards need to do is to aggressively unban shit in Modern to see where the format ends up. So many different cards have been added to the pool that they can't possibly have an idea how unbanning some of the older stuff will impact the format. Instead, we're getting piecemeal unbannings here and there and these have proven the point that the banlist is way too long as it is. If they want to be cautious, just make one or two unbannings for every B&R announcement.
archnemesis
Member
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/revisiting-standard-rotation-2016-10-19
"We now believe that the twice-yearly rotation has resulted in a barrier to new or casual players, and, as such, we will be returning to a once-yearly rotation, effective immediately. This was the rotation schedule before we moved to the Two-Block Paradigm, and we believe players will appreciate the return to a familiar, yearly rotation."
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
No, twin deserves to stay banned.
Who's talking about Twin?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Ins't this card kinda playable, kills most relevant threats, kills Gideon and Liliana, takes a chunk out of the other PW, can just go to the dome, can be flashbacked with Gearhulk.
just in case.
charlequin
Banned
That is exactly the situation, yes. You can even see this watching the best matches by players like Finkel, Kai, LSV, etc. -- they find lines that nobody expects, they plot out upcoming turns to an elaborate level of detail, and they track complex board states that would flummox most people. This isn't really the same thing as "smart" (since most of this skill is utterly ungeneralizable) but it relies on a level of cognitive skill that is not obtainable purely through practice.
This is probably the right thing to do for Modern eventually but I think they're right to let it go without any changes for a few quarters and see where the metagame is looking to settle first.
This is one of the worst things I've ever read.
"They've taken a few things off so there must be something else safe on there!" - Wrong. I shouldn't have to explain how this isn't logical in the slightest- it's like saying that because one trained lion didn't bite you when you went to a magic show, you should go to the zoo and hop in their pen because it'll be safe.
"They don't know how it might impact the format" - Wrong. The cards that have been coming off the ban list are from the very start of the format's inception (or close to it.) They tested Sword/Visions internally before releasing them from the list. They're out of freebies- they had been saving cards like those to unban at PTs, but the death of the Moden PT put an end to that goddamn stupid policy.
Modern is just fine. If they're going to do something, it's more bans (SSG/Become Immense) to stop early kills, not fewer. Posts like this give off the distinct impression that someone both isn't playing the format and doesn't actually know what's on the ban list anymore.
So lets look at what's still on it and whether it can come off.
Ancient Den - No. Artifact Land.
Birthing Pod - No. Siege Rhino. Would merge Abzan w/ combo again.
Blazing Shoal - No. Infect
Bloodbraid Elf - No. They don't want BBE/Jace around.
Chrome Mox - No. Fast mana.
Cloudpost - No. Fast mana.
Dark Depths - No.
Deathrite Shaman - No.
Dig Through Time - No. Delve VS
Dread Return - No. Dredge/Reanimator cost avoidance BS
Eye of Ugin - No. Eldrazi.
Glimpse of Nature - No. Elf Combo.
Great Furnace - No. Artifact Land.
Green Sun's Zenith - No. Dryad Arbor.
Hypergenesis - No.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - No.
Mental Misstep - No.
Ponder - No.
Preordain - No.
Punishing Fire -No.
Rite of Flame -No. Fast Mana
Seat of the Synod - No. Artifact Land.
Second Sunrise - No. Tournaments taking 5 hours longer.
Seething Song No. Fast Mana.
Sensei's Divining Top No. Tournaments taking 5 hours longer.
Skullclamp -No.
Splinter Twin - No.
Stoneforge Mystic -No.
Summer Bloom -No.
Treasure Cruise -No. Delve
Tree of Tales - No. Artifact Land.
Umezawa's Jitte - No.
Vault of Whispers - No.
I mean, seriously.
charlequin
Banned
Wow is that really the whole list now? Maybe there really isn't much fat to cut anymore. Off the top of my head (and this is not based on real serious thought about how it'd affect the format practically), BBE and SFM seem like the best possibilities. Or maybe Preordain? What exactly are the cantrips keeping at bay?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
What exactly isn't obtainable through practice and repetition among those? You can absolutely generalize these skills, processing information, memorisation, preparation, risk assessment,... it's not quantum mechanics you can train and condition yourself to become better at all of those and more.
Maybe you see magic as a form of art, which is really tough if not impossible to teach amateurs.
You would probably be to ban Serum Visions if you unbam preordain. If storm is ever above tier 2, they will ban until its back down there
"God's Beard!"
Member
Preordain and BBE are probably fine. SFM is kind of a messed up card. Diabolic Tutor plus Black Lotus that leaves behind a 1/2 body is the real deal.
SigmasonicX
Member
January Friday Night Magic promo
But none of that will matter if you have an IQ of 85. (And no, raw intelligence is not the only metric that matters, I'm just using it as a blatant example.)
You need to be able to process information at a certain level to do well competitively vs other people. After season 24 of Survivor, they actually implemented a soft IQ minimum because they were having very specific issues w/ those players not being able to really do much in the game- they'd end up as relatively passive players that weren't proactive.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
An IQ of 85 is considerably below the average around the world. I don't know Survivor.
Game show based on social politics. IQ is in no way shape or form the end all be all (social skills are the most important thing by a mile) but you need to be able to step back and be able to do some sort of rudimentary math about your position and map out future effects of your moves.
Infinite Stars
Member
Arguably they're keeping stuff like Grixis Goryo's/"Combo or bust" from being more consistent in how they function, meaning that Combo can still be easily disrupted.
StoneForge Mystic/BloodBraid Elf/JTMS are probably the 3 "safest non" cantrips on the ban list, and even then Bloodbraid slots easily into Jund/might make Temur too powerful, JtMS does nothing to help out the issues that Blue decks have(If you can resolve a Jace in the current meta and have it live you've basically won, and Mystic had the Modern Nexus Test(which had a botched analysis of data, but that's just me) that showed it might hurt Burn.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";220888792]Preordain and BBE are probably fine. SFM is kind of a messed up card. Diabolic Tutor plus Black Lotus that leaves behind a 1/2 body is the real deal.[/QUOTE]
It's not Diabolic Tutor, it's Steelshaper's Gift. Never mind the fact that in order to get B-Skull out the Mystic has to survive a turn before you can use it, and if the Mystic gets removed you effectively get a 5 mana 4/4.
In a format where we have Thoughknot Seer and Reality Smasher, SFM+ Batterskull looks relatively fair in comparison.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Ah. I assume they had a couple too many mentally challenged people on the show
divisionbyzorro
Member
In my opinion, by far the most important trait of a successful top-tier Magic player is metal stamina. There are a lot of people who can map out their decisions correctly for one 50 minute round of Magic. There are very few who can do that 8 times in a day, then come back and do it again the next day.
charlequin
Banned
All of it? Cognitive skill isn't actually that different from physical in this sense; anyone can get good at pickup basketball, but almost nobody can actually be LeBron.
Ah, wasn't thinking about this. Good catch. Still not sure that it'd be too bad to have both, but I guess I'd have to see test results to know.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";220888792]Preordain and BBE are probably fine. SFM is kind of a messed up card. Diabolic Tutor plus Black Lotus that leaves behind a 1/2 body is the real deal.[/QUOTE]
The thing about SFM for me is that they've really seriously nerfed equipment after a few times majorly overdoing it, so there's a pretty good chance that what's available right now (i.e. Batterskull) is the best thing that will ever be available to forge out. Is SFM -> Batterskull on its own overpowered for the current Modern environment?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I already don't know about Survivor what makes you think I know the scope of how good LeBron is? Is he like Michael Jordan nowadays, idk.
Everyone can get more than good at pickup basketball, I never denied that talent gives you an edge but it's not a requirement to be among the best.
Infinite Stars
Member
Aaron also thought Sword of the meek being unbanned would kill off Aggro by making a control deck too good.
White is just hilariously underpowered in Modern. Not including lands, the top 50 commonly played cards break down into the following Colours:
Red:9
White: 3
Black: 12
Green: 11
Blue: 7
Colourless: 13
Those 3 White cards are Path to Exile, Kitchen Finks, and Stony Silence.
"God's Beard!"
Member
White has the best sideboard in Modern, though, arguably the format most impacted by sideboarding.
Infinite Stars
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";220897831]White has the best sideboard in Modern, though, arguably the format most impacted by sideboarding.[/QUOTE]
How does white having the best sideboard(something I strongly disagree with) somehow make the fact that even among the top 50 played cards in Modern it appears only twice in maindecks(and that's counting Finks as White)? On the list of "best sideboard" cards, Stony Silence isn't even first in the Affinity hate list. Nature's Claim And Ancient Grudge take the top spots. Stony Silence can't even beat Affinity at times, because they draw the Signal pest half and not the Cranial plating half
Furthermore, every color in Modern has a deck heavily based in that color be in tier 1 over the last year except for White.
Infect(Green)
Merfolk(Blue)
Jund(Black/Abzan)
Colourless(Affinity)
Burn(Red)
How does white having the best sideboard(something I strongly disagree with) somehow make the fact that even among the top 50 played cards in Modern it appears only twice in maindecks(and that's counting Finks as White)? On the list of "best sideboard" cards, Stony Silence isn't even first in the Affinity hate list. Nature's Claim And Ancient Grudge take the top spots. Stony Silence can't even beat Affinity at times, because they draw the Signal pest half and not the Cranial plating half
Furthermore, every color in Modern has a deck heavily based in that color be in tier 1 over the last year except for White.
Infect(Green)
Merfolk(Blue)
Jund(Black/Abzan)
Colourless(Affinity)
Burn(Red)
Getting to play Storm with Rite of Flames, Preordain and Ponder (and no Serum Vision because it wasn't good enough lol) was basically impossible to not have a kill on Turn 4, and you would have plenty of turn 3 kills.
divisionbyzorro
Member
This is borderline erotic.
i played all these during extended and i don't know what you're talking about lol
hell, legacy storm sometimes whiffs on turn three
phazedplasma
Member
Can anyone link any good "how to play control" articles?
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/pvs-playhouse-control/
Not directly related to playing control, but probably the best strategy article of the last 5 or so years http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26855_Thoughtseize-You.html
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
free the jitte
- Status