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[Angry Grimace]

The problem (and this has always been the ongoing tension here) is that people who play really competitive Standard, or who enjoy pro play as a spectator sport, want formats to change pretty often so they're interesting to solve and fun to play and have unexpected things happening when you watch.

Most people who play Standard (i.e. FNM regulars) actually want to find out what the single best deck in the format is on day two, buy the pieces for it, and then play it for a year without changing a single card, both so they can control the expense and so they can get better at playing that specific deck.

As someone who watches every Pro Tour but plays exclusively Commander and draft, I'm certainly in the first category, but that ain't (as they say) what pays the bills.

Hardcore players are almost always a vocal minority in a game like this (see also, casuals vs. hardcores in World of Warcraft) so I think the decision comes across as confusing since so many people "seemed" to like the twice-yearly rotation schedule.

 

[aidan]

oh shit, you go to LRR's LGS? nice!

Me, too. Actually. All of my interactions with them at events (mostly prereleases) have been really positive. The YJ community is really great all around (shoutout to Ed, Nelson, and Dan, in particular), and made it easier for me to reintroduce myself to the game a few years ago.

 

[Ashodin]

My take away is that they need to get right the interactions between cards and not have another shitty CoCo environment if they're leaving sets in for two years at a time.

 

[Simply Sarah]

The problem (and this has always been the ongoing tension here) is that people who play really competitive Standard, or who enjoy pro play as a spectator sport, want formats to change pretty often so they're interesting to solve and fun to play and have unexpected things happening when you watch.

Most people who play Standard (i.e. FNM regulars) actually want to find out what the single best deck in the format is on day two, buy the pieces for it, and then play it for a year without changing a single card, both so they can control the expense and so they can get better at playing that specific deck.

As someone who watches every Pro Tour but plays exclusively Commander and draft, I'm certainly in the first category, but that ain't (as they say) what pays the bills.

I guess it's hard for me to understand that mindset since I've always been interested in making something new and different from the start 20ish years ago. New set? New cards! New cards? New decks (or at least changes to old ones)! Tweaking any decks was/is a constant. Making new decks and adjusting old ones has always been a core of Magic for me.

Also, even with yearly rotation you still either have 2-3 more sets coming out a 3 month intervals that you can't just ignore or you have the same length of time before the base of the deck rotates if it's from the spring or summer sets.

My take away is that they need to get right the interactions between cards and not have another shitty CoCo environment if they're leaving sets in for two years at a time.

Nah, they just need to make sure the major mistakes are only in the summer set and its 15 month Standard window.

 

[charlequin]

Hardcore players are almost always a vocal minority in a game like this (see also, casuals vs. hardcores in World of Warcraft) so I think the decision comes across as confusing since so many people "seemed" to like the twice-yearly rotation schedule.

I mean, like I said, I accept upfront that my particular demographic reasons for preferring the faster rotations are not worth them trying to satisfy, I'm just not convinced that this is the correct solution to the problem they identified. This is gonna have so many knock-on effects on design and development, on the structure of pro play, on the secondary market, and even on their marketing strategy.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I mean, like I said, I accept upfront that my particular demographic reasons for preferring the faster rotations are not worth them trying to satisfy, I'm just not convinced that this is the correct solution to the problem they identified. This is gonna have so many knock-on effects on design and development, on the structure of pro play, on the secondary market, and even on their marketing strategy.

I certainly don't disagree with that assessment, but the fact they're doing it anyways suggests this was a completely overriding concern. And I can understand that - having more players at FNM is far more likely to drive money into LGS and WOTC pockets than having a more fun game.

There's also the fact that they do a very poor job of introducing people to Standard itself beyond selling the product. I can understand why they dislike pre-cons, but I don't think they've ever approached FNM-level products in the right way. I always felt like if I were to put together a deck that centered around almost any random mechanic in a large set, I could come up with a better, more coherent deck than the Event Decks they used to make. You could easily make a, say, Fabricate deck that has only 1 copy of Nissa, Voice of Zendikar and 1 copy of Angel of Invention and which still manages to be a consistent, deck that can actually win games in Standard when it rolls right by including multiple copies of actual good uncommon cards (e.g. the deck has multiple copies of Skywhaler's Shot and Stasis Snare, and not something dumb like Isolation Zone) and not filling it with fucking draft chaff.

 

[Infinite Stars]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";220709505]KTK is so good the first set makes everything else not matter.[/QUOTE]
Didn't MaRo mention during his Drive to Work on KTK about how strong the first Set was, and how there was a large contingent in R&D that wanted to just keep the Clans around?

I think the biggest issue that FRF/DTK had is that KTK was just such an A+ set that what is probably a C+/B- Draft formats when looked at by themselves is just mediocre in comparison, especially since no part of the block minus KTK could be drafted alone.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Not to keep ranting about Event Decks, but it always pissed me off they put no effort into constructing them and then complained that no one bought them.

 

[Xis]

Didn't MaRo mention during his Drive to Work on KTK about how strong the first Set was, and how there was a large contingent in R&D that wanted to just keep the Clans around?

I don't remember him saying that about R&D. I do remember him saying they expected everyone (players) to be excited about the dragons, but a number of things lined up to make it so players were more invested in the clans.

Edit: I also recall that the wedge theme was chosen specifically because it was something players wanted, but had too small a design space to sustain a block.

 

[Ashodin]

Not to keep ranting about Event Decks, but it always pissed me off they put no effort into constructing them and then complained that no one bought them.

I don't get what their problem is with creating a deck that can be bought and played at FNM and tournaments

 

[Angry Grimace]

I don't get what their problem is with creating a deck that can be bought and played at FNM and tournaments

Devaluing Standard, mostly. The problem was that they didn't target the product at the audience it needed to serve - people who wanted to get into Standard on an FNM level!

But I would be shocked if there's an event deck that exists that I or anyone else in this thread couldn't beat with another standard legal deck composed of nothing but commons and uncommons and one-off rares. Most mechanics in Standard are synergistic enough that you could take the absolute best cards from its draft format and make a coherent, playable 60-card deck with it. They just never made those decks actually good because they didn't aim the product at the right market - those decks NEED to have playsets of the best cards in it.

Let's take, for example, the Theros one, which was supposed to be a deck based on Theros' heroic mechanic:

Creature (25)

2 Ascended Lawmage
2 Banisher Priest
3 Battlewise Hoplite
3 Dryad Militant
1 Fabled Hero
1 Frontline Medic
3 Hopeful Eidolon
2 Imposing Sovereign
1 Lavinia of the Tenth
3 Lyev Skyknight
1 New Prahv Guildmage
1 Precinct Captain
1 Skymark Roc
1 Soldier of the Pantheon

Instant (4)

2 Dauntless Onslaught
2 Gods Willing

Enchantment (7)

2 Detention Sphere
1 Ordeal of Heliod
2 Ordeal of Thassa
2 Pacifism

Land (24)
4 Azorius Guildgate
1 Hallowed Fountain
5 Island
14 Plains

We all know a coherent UW Heroic deck existed in THS block. But this is just a random set of cards and draft uncommons, many of which have no particular synergy with the actual deck beyond being in the right colors. Why are there only 2 copies of Gods Willing? Why isn't the Ordeal mechanic in here? Where's Stratus Walk?

The deck construction never made any goddamn sense. It was just random cards on color.

 

[ultron87]

The Modern Event Deck was decent. Not tournament crushing, but you could win matches with it.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The Modern Event Deck was decent. Not tournament crushing, but you could win matches with it.

It was actually really cool and designed to win games, but they never made another one because nobody wanted to buy an $80 Event Deck (note: I did and played it upgraded for quite a while).

But I'm talking about coherent Standard decks that you could sell for $20. The problem was never that those decks lacked value (even though they did lack value) it was that they weren't coherent decks. But seriously, what did Mono-Red cost? What did UW Heroic cost?

 

[aidan]

We all know a coherent UW Heroic deck existed in THS block. But this is just a random set of cards and draft uncommons, many of which have no particular synergy with the actual deck beyond being in the right colors. Why are there only 2 copies of Gods Willing? Why isn't the Ordeal mechanic in here? Where's Stratus Walk?

The deck construction never made any goddamn sense. It was just random cards on color.

WotC's argument was always that it was fun/useful for new players to learn to evaluate the deck's strengths, pull out the crap cards and replace them with more appropriate cards. Teaches them about deckbuilding, or something. I'm not entirely convinced, though, that this was a better solution than providing players with more competitive decks, thus giving them a better chance to win a couple of games/matches at FNM and feel encouraged to keep on with MTG.

 

[FreedomFrisbee]

I don't remember him saying that about R&D. I do remember him saying they expected everyone (players) to be excited about the dragons, but a number of things lined up to make it so players were more invested in the clans.

Edit: I also recall that the wedge theme was chosen specifically because it was something players wanted, but had too small a design space to sustain a block.

I think, much like this rotation change, they misdiagnosed what people would like about DTK because they misinterpreted data. The oft cited thing is that 'sets sell more when they have dragons in them!'. This is based on old advertising practices where players never saw anything but a handful of cards before a set came out. Remember that we didn't always have a full set spoiled before release. Showing the sets dragon was an easy thing for players to get excited about, but it's not something that really holds any weight any more because they get to see so much more before a set comes out. In the same way they didn't understand why people liked Zendikar or Rise when going back to BFZ, they failed to understand why dragons were significant in the past.

'Standard became less accessible' and 'we want standard to be more accessible' feels like, after several recent announcements, code for 'we're trying to manage the secondary market better'. Which means the reasons for the change were both lowered attendance and the prices of cards in standard. Fetches + Duals + Jace made standard hilariously expensive for a while, turning people off, and then coco followed it with a stagnant format that offered no relief. They should be counting their lucky stars that Kaladesh is shaping up to be a varied format because the only thing that will keep people in standard is a standard that doesn't favor a handful of cards over the others.

 

[Jhriad]

Whaaat?

Standard rotation back to once per year, effective immediately.
BFZ will be standard-legal until next fall.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/revisiting-standard-rotation-2016-10-19

Huh.

This marks the first time I've actually started to be interested in playing Standard since my return to Magic at the end of Theros block. I was interested during Khans block as well but given that I was still building up my collection and relearning the game I decided not to bother.

Aaron's article hinted that two blocks per year may not be guaranteed anymore. I suspect we will see some 4-set blocks coming up (big/small/big/small, like Lorwyn / Shadowmoor). Imagine if we had a small set followup to Rise of the Eldrazi, or Dragons of Tarkir.

I'm more intrigued by the possibility of an occasional three to one split. Maybe we could have the occasional one-off set that tells a story that isn't approximal to the previous block's storyline but without the safe, simple, and reprint heavy snorefest that was the typical Core Set.

 

[Simply Sarah]

It was actually really cool and designed to win games, but they never made another one because nobody wanted to buy an $80 Event Deck (note: I did and played it upgraded for quite a while).

But I'm talking about coherent Standard decks that you could sell for $20. The problem was never that those decks lacked value (even though they did lack value) it was that they weren't coherent decks. But seriously, what did Mono-Red cost? What did UW Heroic cost?

Well, my only real experience with their precon decks were the original ones from Tempest. While not the strongest things in the world those were certainly coherent. I mean, the slivers one having a copy of Extinction always struck me as a bit odd but you had (and I went quickly and looked them up to be sure) a clear UW control deck, a control based UB slivers deck, and I don't care about the other two for now since I wasn't that familiar with them at the time.

The Deep Freeze deck isn't exactly optimal but it's at least generally coherent in what it is doing. Permission, UW removal, fateseal, damage prevention, some defensive creatures, some card draw, and evasion creatures. It's only cards from Tempest itself so the card pool was a bit limited to start with and some of the card choices are certainly questionable but every card present is in line with a functional gameplan. The Slivers deck is similar in that regard. Like, I can look at either deck list and see exactly what the deck is trying to do.

 

[Bandini]

Whaaat?

Standard rotation back to once per year, effective immediately.
BFZ will be standard-legal until next fall.

Well shit, I guess I'm back in, nobody plays Modern around here. Just ordered 3 Spirebluff Canals, maybe I'll throw together a budget Thing in the Ice deck or something. Bluehulk at $30 seems a bit steep right now...

 

[SigmasonicX]

With fall sets now being in Standard for two years, I think they could attempt something I suggested a while ago: theoretically tournament viable decks based around the next blocks to rotate, released six months or so before they do. So before Amonketh comes out, they release a deck based around BFZ and SOI. Perhaps an emerge or delirium deck variant that has only one of each mythic (Emrakul, Liliana, Grim Flayer, etc). Granted, those decks are pretty heavy on rares and mythics, so it would definitely be a struggle version of those decks, but I think that could work.

 

[Firemind]

Didn't MaRo mention during his Drive to Work on KTK about how strong the first Set was, and how there was a large contingent in R&D that wanted to just keep the Clans around?

I think the biggest issue that FRF/DTK had is that KTK was just such an A+ set that what is probably a C+/B- Draft formats when looked at by themselves is just mediocre in comparison, especially since no part of the block minus KTK could be drafted alone.

This is precisely why draft formats should always be A-B-C. The big set is almost always the most fleshed out one. When you go C-B-A, you get Return of Ravnica block. It's just way easier to design blocks top-down rather than bottom-up.

The problem with their current R&D philosophy is that they're making development overcomplicated while stifling the actual interesting part of a block: the mechanics and their interaction. With just a big and small set, you're limiting the amount of mechanics available. Then when the small set releases, you reverse the order you draft, making the big set just a dessert and the small set the main course, which it can't provide because it's the small set. Small sets should supplement the big set, not the other way around. It just doesn't work.

 

[Ashodin]

Shiiiiiiiiit just had a really close game against GB Delirium where I was one off lethal. Never lucky

 

[SigmasonicX]

I don't remember him saying that about R&D. I do remember him saying they expected everyone (players) to be excited about the dragons, but a number of things lined up to make it so players were more invested in the clans.

Edit: I also recall that the wedge theme was chosen specifically because it was something players wanted, but had too small a design space to sustain a block.

In the Drive to Work episode Lessons Learned: Khans of Tarkir, he mentioned that people didn't like the time travel theme, which had been approved by a boss who left the company shortly thereafter, and thus that aspect wasn't well integrated into the sets after Khans. The issue about the dragons is completely separate from that, I believe.

 

[Matriox]

Wow. I knew I had stopped playing standard mostly due to time constraints but I didn't realize standard had fallen out due to the 3 block paradigm as much as it did. Even reading in here there was a lot of folks that dropped out, anecdotal I know but if it means more people that's very awesome. The mtggoldfish podcast was literally just saying Monday that they were very happy with how the pro tour went as a result of finally reaching the 3 blocks from a brewing and deck building perspective which I agreed with, but that doesn't matter if the number of players fell off a cliff. I am happy with the change, just very surprised it all happened so fast.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Just think: we coulda had delve, fetchlands, emerge and delirium at the same time.

 

[charlequin]

I think, much like this rotation change, they misdiagnosed what people would like about DTK because they misinterpreted data. The oft cited thing is that 'sets sell more when they have dragons in them!'. This is based on old advertising practices where players never saw anything but a handful of cards before a set came out.

I think you're really overcomplicating this. People like dragons because people think dragons are cool, nothing has changed about this. The problem isn't that they became a less effective marketing angle, it's that the delta of appeal from "one cool dragon!" to "thirty cool dragons!" is pretty small because dragons are curve-toppers and you don't play all of them in one deck. Wedges are a much better marketing theme because they're something you usually get none of and you're incentivized to use all of the cards in one when you build a deck.

This is precisely why draft formats should always be A-B-C. The big set is almost always the most fleshed out one. When you go C-B-A, you get Return of Ravnica block.

Wow I disagree with this like the most possible. Years of 100% terrible AAB formats ruined this for me forever.

In the Drive to Work episode Lessons Learned: Khans of Tarkir, he mentioned that people didn't like the time travel theme, which had been approved by a boss who left the company shortly thereafter

Brady Dommermuth, FWIW.

 

[Firemind]

Wow I disagree with this like the most possible. Years of 100% terrible AAB formats ruined this for me forever.

So you'd rather start with Dark Ascension?

 

[Ashodin]

Just think: we coulda had delve, fetchlands, emerge and delirium at the same time.

The amount of graveyard hate not in the format is troubling

Amonkhet save us

I want to be able to burn away the opponent's graveyard

GB Delirium I HATE YOU SO MUCH

 

[charlequin]

So you'd rather start with Dark Ascension?

I can't speak to DKA - ISD - ISD specifically (honestly I haven't drafted DKA since like the first day it came out so I'd have to pore through the spoiler to figure that out) but I know that before the order switch there was never an AAB format I thought was good. Every single one is a step down from the AAA and most are worse than the ABC as well. At least with the BAA or BBA structures you know that the mechanics in the B set are actually going to be usable.

 

[Firemind]

At least with the BAA or BBA structures you know that the mechanics in the B set are actually going to be usable.

Ah but I'm not advocating for AAB! I want ABC to make a glorious comeback!

 

[Joe Molotov]

I guess I'm gonna play Jeskai Control for Game Day. I've got the Torrential Gearhulks and everything else I need for it except for a few Fastlands.

 

[red13th]

Torrential Gearhulk is now officially more expensive than Chandra, he's going for $30 and she's $24 on CSI. Woot cheaper Chandra for me (still haven't bought mine), I just wish stupid Smug Copter dropped a bit too.

 

[phazedplasma]

i think im still gonn get 3 more gerahulks, and now im gonna get nahiri too.

 

[Ashodin]

Torrential Gearhulk is now officially more expensive than Chandra, he's going for $30 and she's $24 on CSI. Woot cheaper Chandra for me (still haven't bought mine), I just wish stupid Smug Copter dropped a bit too.

feels so good to have pulled three copters

 

[OnPoint]

Hm. The time is right. I should probably list these Gearhulks before they drop.

Not too sure how I feel about the change in standard rotation.

 

[linid0t]

Anyone use pucatrade or can comment on how it works? Thanks in advance. Looking to trade parts of my merfolk deck into death and taxes or something.

 

[Infinite Stars]

The buylist price for Blue Gear Hulk is 26 CAD.

I'm really tempted to just jump on selling him, considering he's probably reached his peak.

I'm imagining some stupid Red White Deck before SoI leaves that runs Nahiri with the Red Gearhulk. It sounds like the complete opposite of Boros, but at the same time it seems hillarious.

 

[MoxManiac]

Anyone use pucatrade or can comment on how it works? Thanks in advance. Looking to trade parts of my merfolk deck into death and taxes or something.

Last I used PucaTrade it was nearly impossible to get any decent modern or legacy cards.

 

[SigmasonicX]

This TCG Player article is a good analysis of the rotation change. I hadn't considered the impact of frequent Standard changes to someone in a country without such a large secondary market, nor the dangers of a card from the oldest block suddenly gaining relevancy and thus shooting up in price. Plus, the point of Collected Company and Siege Rhino being hated but not actually impacting FNM attendance much, but the spring rotation doing so, is interesting.

 

[Angry Grimace]

On the one hand, I'm annoyed because I have yet to find a Standard deck I really like this season.

I guess Aetherworks is fine, I just don't love the randomness. It's kind of the same reason I never cared for playing Company, either.

 

[El Topo]

On the one hand, I'm annoyed because I have yet to find a Standard deck I really like this season.

Why not Colossus Affinity, besides its enormous fragility?

 

[Ashodin]

On the one hand, I'm annoyed because I have yet to find a Standard deck I really like this season.

I guess Aetherworks is fine, I just don't love the randomness. It's kind of the same reason I never cared for playing Company, either.

Yeah I hate bricking too. Shit feels like Hearthstone RNG in magic.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Yeah I hate bricking too. Shit feels like Hearthstone RNG in magic.

I think I've probably spent the majority of my time with brewing with Aetherworks deck trying to figure out various ways to get past control - I've played with boarding out Aetherworks to go bigger (e.g. more cast trigger stuff) and also to try and go smaller. Neither have been more than middling success - sometimes I can just win by chaining World Breakers or something.

I played a Delirium GR deck that was pretty good but its impossible to get around how stupid it is just randomly winning out of nowhere.

Basically bring back Mistcutter Hydra

 

[red13th]

LSV in his latest Kaladesh draft video: "I have a good sideboard against a 4-color deck, it's called submit."
I lol'd

 

[Violet_0]

so this is specifically about Magic Duels but goddamn I hate Sorin so much, the + ability and lifegain are bullshit


and after looking back again at some of the other recent sets pre-BFZ, I've come to the conclusion that I really don't much care for Kaladesh, outside of limited which is alright. It barely has any cards that I'm interested in for EDH and the set feels strangely generic flavor-wise compared to something like Takir, Ravincia, Theros or Lorwyn (I guess I just really like the planes that have lots of warring factions). I mean, what's there really to know about Kaladesh - they're good with artifacts and are having an inventor's fair, the plane uses aether as an energy ressource and they have vehicles - the end. And main-story is just another forgettable Gatewatch adventure that can be summed up in a couple words

 

[jph139]

Anyone use pucatrade or can comment on how it works? Thanks in advance. Looking to trade parts of my merfolk deck into death and taxes or something.

I use PucaTrade. Essentially, you "sell" cards for play money, and people can send you cards on your list as long as you have enough of that play money.

That being said, I don't think I'd recommend getting into it right now. Things are shaky nowadays and trading in general is way down... it's probably a better time to cash out than cash in, if you get what I mean.

 

[Xis]

and after looking back again at some of the other recent sets pre-BFZ, I've come to the conclusion that I really don't much care for Kaladesh, outside of limited which is alright. It barely has any cards that I'm interested in for EDH and the set feels strangely generic flavor-wise compared to something like Takir, Ravincia, Theros or Lorwyn (I guess I just really like the planes that have lots of warring factions). I mean, what's there really to know about Kaladesh - they're good with artifacts and are having an inventor's fair, the plane uses aether as an energy ressource and they have vehicles - the end. And main-story is just another forgettable Gatewatch adventure that can be summed up in a couple words

I mostly agree; need to play more, but the way I normally play (sealed leagues) is really bomb-heavy, and there's not enough of a flavor hook to keep my interest.

 

[Angry Grimace]

My conclusion here is that being more proactive about standard bans in general will accomplish their goal better than any rotation change will. Development mistakes won't stop happening and having them around for longer will help nothing. The advantage of the 18 month rotation was to allow mistakes to go away faster, among other things.

They're not going to be more proactive about Standard bans though.

 

[phazedplasma]

It was actually really cool and designed to win games, but they never made another one because nobody wanted to buy an $80 Event Deck (note: I did and played it upgraded for quite a while).

But I'm talking about coherent Standard decks that you could sell for $20. The problem was never that those decks lacked value (even though they did lack value) it was that they weren't coherent decks. But seriously, what did Mono-Red cost? What did UW Heroic cost?

Yeah that deck was cool, cheap to upgrade (depending on which direction you went), and a great intro to modern.

That single handedly got me into modern. More event decks like that please.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I played it and upgraded it with Bitterblossom, Marsh Flats, Godless Shrine (I got a bunch of these cards when they were still relatively cheap haha).

It's still a damn competitive deck, I just turned it into Abzan a long time ago and haven't really considered that I should put Tokens back together - there are definitely metas where its great (e.g. a competitive one where nobody plays Tron)

 

[red13th]

I love reading Mike Linnemann's art reviews, his Kaladesh review is a pretty nice read. Magic art is so good.