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Magic: the Gathering |OT9| Kaladesh - Cruisin' Down the Street in my 6/4

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O

OnPoint

Member
Man I'm just thinking of nightmare scenarios now.

Player A draws, goes to main phase, one card in hand. Casts a wrath, wipes the board. Player B loses 4 creatures. Player A passes.

Player B draws, goes to main phase, one card in hand. Plays Yawgmoth's Will. Then casts three Sylvan Advocates from the graveyard, and plays a Forest. Casts Traverse the Uvenwald from graveyard. Gets some kind of nonsense into their hand. Laughs at how fair this sequence is.

Why are we even discussing this? The card is too good.
 
B

bigkrev

Member
OnPoint said:
I know how Will works. Why are you focusing on the combo aspect of it? I am well aware of the lack of rituals in Standard and am in no way saying you could cast your entire 21 card graveyard. Maybe read my posts? You're missing my point. If you're at turn 10 and you and your opponent have both stalled out, or you're in an attrition-based battle, or maybe you just need that one answer to push through, Will probably opens up your options to a crazy amount of stuff. Yes, even if you cast your average of 2-4 spells off Will, it's likely enough to drastically tilt the game in that player's favor, or maybe even outright win it. And then games just become who draws Will and who doesn't, which is not what a Standard without graveyard hate needs.
Click to expand...

Yes, I did misread your post.

I'm saying that on Turn 10, casting 3 2-3 drops from your graveyard is about the same power level as casting Emrakul, which is a powerful but not broken effect in standard.
 
O

OnPoint

Member
With Will, would casting Emrakul 2.0 from the graveyard reduce its own cost by counting as a creature? Pretty sure it would. That's grossssssss.
 
H

Hero

Member
bigkrev said:
It's hard to look back at past results because Standard didn't become a Pro Tour Format till years later, but in 2000, it saw zero appearances in the T8 of Worlds, and 1 appearance in the Top 8 of Nationals.
Click to expand...

I can respond to this in one of two ways:

1) Using results from 16 years ago when the game was much smaller, the rules were different, and deckbuilding and card design philosophy was still not mature is hardly indicative of what would happen if Yawgmoth's Will was printed in Standard right now.

2) The "only one" appearance in Top 8 of Nationals was Jon Finkel, one of the best players the game has ever known. He also won that event with the deck.
 
I

Infinite Stars

Member
Hero said:
All these sweepers suck compared to Balance. Make Magic great again.
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I know you were joking about balance, but it wouldn't even hit the best creature in Standard. I'd say it's fair

I'm joking I'm joking please don't kill me. I just really like the art of Balance.
 
E

ElyrionX

Member
Hero said:
Oh darn, how am I ever going to build this manabase with all these shock, fetch, check, and filter lands?
Click to expand...

Lol. With an argument like that, it's not worth my time having this discussion with you anymore.

Maybe you should actually go play Crytic Command in Modern first.
 
H

Hero

Member
ElyrionX said:
Lol. With an argument like that, it's not worth my time having this discussion with you anymore.

Maybe you should actually go play Crytic Command in Modern first.
Click to expand...

I mean, I could've stopped responding to you a while ago but I decided to see how far this madness went or that you would realize the absurdity of what you stated.

I don't play competitively but that doesn't mean the card isn't broken nor others aren't playing it.

Jeskai Modern Open 5th place finish

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109294

Jeskai Flash Modern Open 6th place finish

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=108807

Merfolk Modern Open 14th place finish
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=108142

Jeskai Control Modern Open 11th place finish
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=107558

Jeskai Control Modern Open 1st place finish
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=107129

Jeskai Control Modern Open 7th place finish
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=107132

These are just decks from the past two months purely from the SCG Open circuit.

Let's take a look are more professional data from just this weekend:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpdfw16/top-8-decklists-2016-11-06

Hm, Alex Mitas, playing Jeskai Control, a three-color deck, is playing FOUR copies of Cryptic Command in the main? What? How could this be? How can someone be so greedy with their mana base to play that card in a tri-color deck? Surely, he must've been super lucky to get to the semi-finals of a Grand Prix!

Oh wait, look at that 2nd place list from Corey Burkhart! Holy moly! Grixis Control, another deck that you think can't "afford" to run Cryptic Commander, runs FOUR copies in the main 60! Damn, what the hell? This guy must've had some CRAZY luck to pilot a control deck through the field and not get fucked by that triple blue in the casting cost, right?

Even Wizards had to point this out from their weekend coverage:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpdfw16/top-5-moments-2016-11-06
Modern is a format that many see as dominated by aggressive decks. Between Death's Shadow Aggro, Infect, Dredge and Burn, there are lot of ways to die by the fourth turn in Modern.

Turns out the reports of the death of control have been greatly exaggerated.

Three pure control decks advanced to the semifinals of the Grand Prix, with Corey Burkhart's Grixis, Alex Mitas' Jeskai and Kevin Mackie's Skred Red making it there. A full eight Cryptic Command were the last four decks in the tournament, and the finals was an all-control affair between Skred Red and Grixis Control.

Modern may still be a format that leans aggressive, but after Dallas there's no doubt that control has its place.
Click to expand...

You're entitled to your own opinion, but realize when it is wrong.
 
F

Familienoberhauptvogel

Banned
Leaving that aside I still challenge the notion that corey's list is a control deck and if that is what it takes to be labeled control in modern then control is in a pretty bad spot.
 
E

ElyrionX

Member
Hero said:
I mean, I could've stopped responding to you a while ago but I decided to see how far this madness went or that you would realize the absurdity of what you stated.

I don't play competitively but that doesn't mean the card isn't broken nor others aren't playing it.

Jeskai Modern Open 5th place finish

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109294

Jeskai Flash Modern Open 6th place finish

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=108807

Merfolk Modern Open 14th place finish
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=108142

Jeskai Control Modern Open 11th place finish
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=107558

Jeskai Control Modern Open 1st place finish
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=107129

Jeskai Control Modern Open 7th place finish
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=107132

These are just decks from the past two months purely from the SCG Open circuit.

Let's take a look are more professional data from just this weekend:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpdfw16/top-8-decklists-2016-11-06

Hm, Alex Mitas, playing Jeskai Control, a three-color deck, is playing FOUR copies of Cryptic Command in the main? What? How could this be? How can someone be so greedy with their mana base to play that card in a tri-color deck? Surely, he must've been super lucky to get to the semi-finals of a Grand Prix!

Oh wait, look at that 2nd place list from Corey Burkhart! Holy moly! Grixis Control, another deck that you think can't "afford" to run Cryptic Commander, runs FOUR copies in the main 60! Damn, what the hell? This guy must've had some CRAZY luck to pilot a control deck through the field and not get fucked by that triple blue in the casting cost, right?

Even Wizards had to point this out from their weekend coverage:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpdfw16/top-5-moments-2016-11-06


You're entitled to your own opinion, but realize when it is wrong.
Click to expand...

There is data out there (hint: look at day 2 meta) I can use to tear apart your argument but I'm not going to because as I've said, it's a waste of time having this discussion with you when you've clearly not tried to build a competitive deck with Cryptic Command or even tried to play a deck with Crytic Command in it.

Oh and FYI, I jam 4 copies of it into my Esper Control deck and have played as much as 3 copies in Twin and UWR midrange and control in the past. It isn't that you can't play 4 copies in tricolor decks but running more than 2 copies of it forces plenty of concessions from the player in deckbuilding and in an actual game itself that many players choose to run less than the full playset. Of course, this point flies over your head because you have no actual experience playing with the very card at the centre of this discussion and neither have you read the huge swathe of deckbuilding literature out there that discusses all these points on Cryptic Command.

Edit: Also, I think it is completely laughable (and sad) you're trying to tell me, in such an arrogant tone no less, that I am wrong on a card that I have played with for a long time and one which you have zero experience playing with.
 
K

kirblar

Member
ElyrionX said:
There is data out there (hint: look at day 2 meta) I can use to tear apart your argument but I'm not going to because as I've said, it's a waste of time having this discussion with you when you've clearly not tried to build a competitive deck with Cryptic Command or even tried to play a deck with Crytic Command in it.

Oh and FYI, I jam 4 copies of it into my Esper Control deck and have played as much as 3 copies in Twin and UWR midrange and control in the past. It isn't that you can't play 4 copies in tricolor decks but running more than 2 copies of it forces plenty of concessions from the player in deckbuilding and in an actual game itself that many players choose to run less than the full playset. Of course, this point flies over your head because you have no actual experience playing with the very card at the centre of this discussion and neither have you read the huge swathe of deckbuilding literature out there that discusses all these points on Cryptic Command.

Edit: Also, I think it is completely laughable (and sad) you're trying to tell me, in such an arrogant tone no less, that I am wrong on a card that I have played with for a long time and one which you have zero experience playing with.
Click to expand...
You are claiming it is a balanced card.

That viewpoint is absolutely ridiculous.
 
H

Hero

Member
ElyrionX said:
There is data out there (hint: look at day 2 meta) I can use to tear apart your argument but I'm not going to because as I've said, it's a waste of time having this discussion with you when you've clearly not tried to build a competitive deck with Cryptic Command or even tried to play a deck with Crytic Command in it.

Oh and FYI, I jam 4 copies of it into my Esper Control deck and have played as much as 3 copies in Twin and UWR midrange and control in the past. It isn't that you can't play 4 copies in tricolor decks but running more than 2 copies of it forces plenty of concessions from the player in deckbuilding and in an actual game itself that many players choose to run less than the full playset. Of course, this point flies over your head because you have no actual experience playing with the very card at the centre of this discussion and neither have you read the huge swathe of deckbuilding literature out there that discusses all these points on Cryptic Command.

Edit: Also, I think it is completely laughable (and sad) you're trying to tell me, in such an arrogant tone no less, that I am wrong on a card that I have played with for a long time and one which you have zero experience playing with.
Click to expand...

You're assuming a lot about me that you don't actually know. Which, even if true, has nothing to do with the fact that I can evaluate a card in a vacuum and analyze data. Do you not realize how foolish you look because you claimed in the same page that Cryptic Command is balanced because of its casting cost and it's hardly played as a 4, then I proceed to show that in an event two days prior there were two three-color decks that ran 4x in the main, then you admit you have played the card as 4x in your own three colored decks? Seriously reread all the posts you and I have made. I'll wait.
 
E

ElyrionX

Member
Hero said:
You're assuming a lot about me that you don't actually know. Which, even if true, has nothing to do with the fact that I can evaluate a card in a vacuum and analyze data. Do you not realize how foolish you look because you claimed in the same page that Cryptic Command is balanced because of its casting cost and it's hardly played as a 4, then I proceed to show that in an event two days prior there were two three-color decks that ran 4x in the main, then you admit you have played the card as 4x in your own three colored decks? Seriously reread all the posts you and I have made. I'll wait.
Click to expand...

I said it is rarely played as 4 and if it was, it required massive concessions from the player to do so. Your rebuttal disproved neither. Two datapoints from a one event does not mean jack shit when Cryptic has been legal for many years in Modern.

And the fact that you are unaware of what it takes for someone to play Cryptic in their deck as a 4-of shows you have completely no clue what you are talking about. That is why I said earlier to go play it and come back with an opinion that is actually informed. I didn't even need you to concede that you have never played it; it was super obvious from your posts.

Take your own advice and go brush up on your own reading comprehension. Also, try not to speak from positions of ignorance and when you do, don't make your ignorance so goddamn obvious.

"Evaluate a card in a vacuum and analyze data". LOL great job there.
 
H

Hero

Member
ElyrionX said:
Cryptic Command is an example of a balanced counterspell.
Click to expand...

So the beginning of crazy nonsense talk:


ElyrionX said:
Cryptic Command is so good, that's why you see it in every blue deck, amirite?

You have to build a goddamn mana base around the card just to play it.

Edit: If you're playing three colors, Cryptic Commands forces you into making suboptimal decisions on fetching lands, especially in the face of a potential Blood Moon.
Click to expand...

Sarcasm on if its so good, why doesn't every blue deck play it?

ElyrionX said:
That's my point. When deckbuilding, you need to make very conscious decisions to squeeze Cryptic Command into your deck. And even with that, it is very rarely played as a 4-of, typically a 2-of, because it is too slow and too demanding on the manabase.
Click to expand...

At least you made the most sensible comment here that you have to fetch lands properly, which is why most people play Ux shocklands and usually a singleton Sacred Foundry or Godless Shrine. That deckbuilding skill. Such concession, much wow!

ElyrionX said:
Oh and FYI, I jam 4 copies of it into my Esper Control deck and have played as much as 3 copies in Twin and UWR midrange and control in the past. It isn't that you can't play 4 copies in tricolor decks but running more than 2 copies of it forces plenty of concessions from the player in deckbuilding and in an actual game itself that many players choose to run less than the full playset. Of course, this point flies over your head because you have no actual experience playing with the very card at the centre of this discussion and neither have you read the huge swathe of deckbuilding literature out there that discusses all these points on Cryptic Command.

Edit: Also, I think it is completely laughable (and sad) you're trying to tell me, in such an arrogant tone no less, that I am wrong on a card that I have played with for a long time and one which you have zero experience playing with.
Click to expand...

The admission that you actually play 4x copies into your own Esper Control deck despite your previous posts going against BOTH of your points that YOU brought up. The meta is hyper aggro right now due to crap like Infect, Death's Shadow Aggro, and Dredge being at an all time high. Despite that, two decks in the top four of a Grand Prix just ran four copies each. I like how you dismiss this. Seriously dude if you can't connect the dots based on your own posts I'm not sure what else to say to you because you are legitimately crazy. If you want I can post pictures of my Cryptic Commands when I get home from work today, but your wrong assessment of if I have ever played the card has nothing to do with you calling you on your opinion. Nobody else is agreeing with you on your original statement that Cryptic Command is balanced.
 
B

bigkrev

Member
So Kibler made an Election deck for Hearthstone
Cw2INwfUkAEZFPf.jpg


Who here wants to brew up some Magic election decks?
 
H

Hero

Member
So you could make an Azorius deck and just detain everything and do upkeep effects and tax effects to make people pay more mana for spells. Thalia, Thornstone Amethyst, Londestone Golem, etc.
 
Wulfric

Wulfric

Member
The binder thief strikes again! Hope Marsh wasn't gearing up for Vintage night. :/

Seriously folks, don't leave your cars in your cards, um, cards in yer cars.

TowHvTJ.png


Ooh, I wanna deckbuild! Land Tax would be good too.

RDM1IEB.jpg
 
B

bigkrev

Member
Add Seahawks DE Cassius Marsh to the shortlist of pro athletes who play Magic, and to the sadly longer list of victims of Binder Theft

gidDOdq.png
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
I was playing my Dubious Challenge/Show and Tell deck today.

My opponent conceded after I played a turn two Emrakul, but I noticed from his hand that he could have dropped Trinisphere off my Show and Tell and sac it to his Daretti 2.0 to kill my Emrakul.

Legacy is crazy.
 
S

Santiako

Member
The duel commander committee is such a mess. Instead of going back on the starting at 20 life that most people seemed to dislike, they are introducing a new variant called "Leviathan Commander" which is the same but with 30 life and will have a separate ban list :/

Way to dilute an already barely played format

http://www.duelcommander.com
 
F

Firemind

Member
Can we just skip Aether Revolt, please?

Just say Tezzeret is soundly beaten by the hot-headed Chandra and her companion, the wunderkind Jace. They celebrate by kissing each other.
 
D

DashReindeer

Lead Community Manager, Outpost Games
Sad about the circumstances, but awesome that Huey had the courage to come out like that. I like to think that the Magic community is fairly accepting of people of all walks of life and that people will embrace him just as they have prior to this.
 
Wulfric

Wulfric

Member
Wow, that came out of nowhere. I always had a feeling he was gay, but I figured I was just projecting. I understand his thought process, the past 48 hours has me reconsidering a lot of my beliefs. Heck, it like a funeral on campus yesterday; never seen people so glum looking.

I'm glad he found the courage to share this with the world. You feel so much lighter after people learn about your orientation.
 
S

Simply Sarah

Member
Santiako said:
In light of the election, Huey gathers courage and comes out as gay:



Good for him.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm glad he felt able to do it but I hate the fact that the thing driving him to do it is so awful. But this is the best thing that can be done in the face of trying circumstances.

DashReindeer said:
Sad about the circumstances, but awesome that Huey had the courage to come out like that. I like to think that the Magic community is fairly accepting of people of all walks of life and that people will embrace him just as they have prior to this.
Click to expand...

Eh, I think this depends. There's a sizable segment of quite accepting and understanding people, seemingly especially when it comes to many of the older pros and casters. That said, MtG has its ugly reputation for a reason and there's a lot of very loud rabble that will rip anyone different. As a woman playing Magic, I'm very careful picking out people to play with and places to play at because of that.
 
Wulfric

Wulfric

Member
Small EMA reprint incoming according to WPN.

Eternal Masters was specifically designed to be drafted. While we understand that this surprise reprint will make an irresistible holiday gift for many, we feel that each box represents an opportunity to host a truly special draft experience, and we hope you'll earmark a portion of this reprint for just that.
Click to expand...

lol, WotC, you're funny. These are gonna get marked up immediately around here.
 
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