StrawberryJam
Member
Not bad because it happens. I think it needs proper context and understanding of the issues that they are writing about. It's just that doesn't happen very often.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Writing in games that makes you uncomfortable.
- Thread starter StrawberryJam
- Start date
Not bad because it happens. I think it needs proper context and understanding of the issues that they are writing about. It's just that doesn't happen very often.
In the beginning of Omikron you posses someone's body and immediately have sex with their wife. Later on you posess a women and eventually leave her body to disappear because her appearance was absolutely necessary to get through the door that was guarded by a guy who was attracted to her.
I'm glad that Sony is taking him in a new direction with the new game. Dad Kratos seems much more relatable.
Yeah. I've never understood how Cages games sell with all the stupid stuff in it. To each their own I guess.
Its a fun game. That's pretty much it.
I feel like Atlus is trying to get better about it. They certainly didn't focus on it nearly as much in the spin offs.
Brerlappin
Member
Ill never forget when i came across this. I straight up could not believe what i was seeing. A black woman digging through trash talking like an 1800s Alabama slave with her SHEEEEIT MASSA AH FINDS INFO'MAYSHUN FUH YA REAAAAAL GOOD accent was just beyond bad taste. It literally could only have been more offensive if she had been a white woman in blackface speaking like that.
CrichtonKicks
Member
Eh, I'm smack in the middle of this in Chapter 4 of Steins;Gate and I don't necessarily see anything wrong with his internal thoughts on Lukako. Seems pretty natural for a teenage boy. I also appreciate how inclusive the Lab Mems usually are with Lukako as well and their general show of support of the idea of going through a gender change if that's what she wanted.
But the cosplay thing was really, really inappropriate and felt downright abusive.
Kratos is pretty much the straight up villain of God of War 3. No matter what personal betrayals he had suffered in previous games there is zero justification for what he does to the Gods and the rest of the world in that game. He is pretty much a slasher villain systematically stalking and killing the Greek Panetheon.
Iriscomeback
Member
I had the same issue with Steins Gate regarding Luka.
Going to spoiler tag it just in case:
Going to spoiler tag it just in case:
At one point the main character sexually assaults Luka by grabbing her between the legs to prove she is actually a he (which is not true at that point). I was like, WTF?! The reaction was even worse. He get's slapped in the face and that's the end of it. Seriously, nobody ever mentions again what happenend. I almost shut of the game there.
Schopenhauerian
Member
I wish i went to this magical high-school yall went to where kids weren't awful about either of these things.
Every game manages to shoehorn in creepy pervy moments on the female lead too. The dialogue is either off putting or nonsense.
Don't forget the forced rape scenes.
My school district really tried to cut down on bullying when I was in highschool a few years ago, and were surprisingly successful.
Reproducing fatshaming and homophobia without any form of comment or contextualization isn't very productive or meaningful - then it's just doing the same shit that shitlords did in high school. The fact that the main characters are doing this without any pushback or lesson also tells us that it's not something that's derided or villainous
"Tasty plasma"
Isn't it pretty obvious that people can still enjoy a game despite problematic elements?
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
Well maybe work on that empathy then. I heard Persona games teach 1 or 2 things about it.
-----------------------------------------
Also the judgment and holier than thou attitude in this thread has gone to crazy levels of fuck Nolan North for dooming the VA industry.
I'm all for having a conversation/discussion and critic but like reading some of the statement in here is like... head scratching. It wasn't too long ago when the west heralded/celebrated P4 as the brave game to deal with some of these issues(which I think was unearned and largely to many misunderstanding what the core struggles were or maybe that's just how the localization turned out).
But at the same time P4 is not this malicious homophobic/fatshaming/morally disgusting game. Would be nice if people realize that the world is not made up of one set of values and anything that strays away from that is evil and bad.
Same thing for the trails thing of the OP, people judge way to quickly and think way too narrow. 2016 should have thought us that all our bubbles are toxic as hell.
Less judgement, more talking.(and in that I applaud the op making the thread)
Lightning Lord
Banned
The correct answer is Star Ocean 4, 'kay?
'Kay.
Right, so in the context of the thread, their fatshaming and homophobia isn't the problem, the fact that they didn't learn that it's bad, is. About every time I see complaints about the characters, there's nothing about the fact that they were never written about growing up.
That's basically the issue here, they never grow up and out of that behavior during the course of the game, not that they have the behavior in the first place. Having that behavior is unfortunately accurate. Not growing out of it, unfortunately, a little less so.
Having just completed the game on Tuesday, I have to say, this is only part of the issue. I really wanted to enjoy the game, and it started off interesting enough, but episodes 2-4 were just horrendous. Whatever emotional hook they were trying for was lost under the mountain of cliched characters, overly dramatic dialog, and nonsensical "choices". At least episode 5 had some interesting (if not somewhat drawn out) game play pieces.
Edit: Just so everyone is clear, I applaud the issues that they tried to address, but found the manner in which they did so to be entirely pedestrian, and counterproductive.
AlexFlame116
Member
I like Persona 4. Some parts were zany and some were weird but it's one of my favorite games of all time. So yeah.
Where's orthodoxy when you need him with his Yusuke Santa avatar?
Anyways, I don't really get affected by cringy or uncomfortable writing at all unless it REALLY goes of its way. There are a couple but all I can think of right now in clarity was the scene in the Alone in the Dark remake.
https://youtu.be/qzCoCdIMIcI
Just why?!?!
Where's orthodoxy when you need him with his Yusuke Santa avatar?
Anyways, I don't really get affected by cringy or uncomfortable writing at all unless it REALLY goes of its way. There are a couple but all I can think of right now in clarity was the scene in the Alone in the Dark remake.
https://youtu.be/qzCoCdIMIcI
Just why?!?!
afternoon delight
Member
I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream actually makes me feel ill if I smoke too much herb before contemplating its version of existence. Stasis also offers some of the most seriously grim and disturbing writing I've seen committed to vidya gamez.
casey_contra
Member
Kazooie and the bee lady from Banjo-Tooie.
SomedayTheFire
Member
every single time a male character talks about Cindy in FFXV.
Hal and Emma Emmerich relationship (MGS2) was disturbing, maybe it's a family thing because Hue and Strangelove relationship (MGSV) was pretty messed up too.
BTW I've been playing Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth this week and bumped into this "Living Dolls" quest and holy mother of god, what a change of tone it brought to the game, pretty disturbing too (and I'm glad this game took some weird and mature themes in writing for Digimon, it's slowing turning into SMT/Persona style and I love it, the fans from the series mostly born in the 90s and we are not kids anymore after all, can't wait for a sequel for Digimon Story).
BTW I've been playing Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth this week and bumped into this "Living Dolls" quest and holy mother of god, what a change of tone it brought to the game, pretty disturbing too (and I'm glad this game took some weird and mature themes in writing for Digimon, it's slowing turning into SMT/Persona style and I love it, the fans from the series mostly born in the 90s and we are not kids anymore after all, can't wait for a sequel for Digimon Story).
Phoenix RISING
Banned
I'll give Kojima credit: he really tried with Drebin, but it was still awkward with his half Japanese, half "urban appropriation" routine.
GoW 1 Kratos was a rightfully angry, tormented man, toyed with by the gods. Cool guy.
GoW 2 Kratos was a bit of a douche but okay.
GoW 3 Kratos was a pile of human garbage whose angryness was nonsensical, his wish for a stupid revenge completely artificial and who was allround a person you could describe as evil.
I honestly thought after 3 the series was done for because who would want to play as that piece of shit?
I think most of here are coming from a place of liking Persona 4, actually. I like Yosuke too; not sure how common that view is. (Which, well, he's the loudest but the girls are homophobes to varying degrees too)
That said, the game does have a queer problem, does have a fat problem, etc. and those are very much relevant to this thread.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
Nah actually some people are just here to down talk on it.
Like I'm right there with people criticizing scenes and stuff I did it right here for Persona 5, where the disconnect is, is when somehow this 80+ hour game with so many different facets many of them executed really well gets reduced to being homophobic/etc and that clearly additionally coming from a place that has 0 regard for differing cultural climates/etc. It's just been annoying me especially this year when people take the I have all the moral answers perceived highroad and especially how it's expressed. People have just been insanely dumb about it(Best exhibit was the Nolan speech thread, truly some embarrassing shit right there) . The conversation around various socially important stuff/things relating to it(I have nothing against squabbles/laying down the salt in good fun) has be smarter, more open and more about making our views accessible instead of labeling, being judgemental, etc.
In addition I don't even get the fatshaming(which is a loaded topic anyway) from my perspective that's a case of different people taking different things away. I fucking love how confident Hanako is. She rules in my book.
Gai Murakumo
Member
Pretty much most David Cage games due to have terrible they are written. Especially in the weird sex or rape scenes that are thrown into them.
God of War's writing made me uncomfortable because it just kind of reveled in how much of an angry piece of shit Kratos is. He does all this horrible shit and it's just another step in the road to him.
The Tomb Raider reboot's writing made me uncomfortable not because of its subject matter, but how it treated its audience. Specifically, it treated me like I was a complete moron with attention problems. It takes a few obvious story points and then RELENTLESSLY beat you over the head with it, as if it thought the first 50 times Lara made scared noises weren't clear enough to you that the writing wanted you to know that she was scared. Then you do some great stuff in game when you're just pretty much holding forward the entire time, and the game bends over backwards congratulating you about it and telling you what an ordeal it was. I've never had a game be so fucking patronizing, and it was actually uncomfortable to deal with after a while.
The Tomb Raider reboot's writing made me uncomfortable not because of its subject matter, but how it treated its audience. Specifically, it treated me like I was a complete moron with attention problems. It takes a few obvious story points and then RELENTLESSLY beat you over the head with it, as if it thought the first 50 times Lara made scared noises weren't clear enough to you that the writing wanted you to know that she was scared. Then you do some great stuff in game when you're just pretty much holding forward the entire time, and the game bends over backwards congratulating you about it and telling you what an ordeal it was. I've never had a game be so fucking patronizing, and it was actually uncomfortable to deal with after a while.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I'll probably get some flack for this, but in some games coming out of Japan, dialogue and conversations between adult characters and minors is mostly cringe worthy and often uncomfortable.
Also, insert any David Cage game here.
Also, insert any David Cage game here.
FallenGrace
Member
I read an article on Gemetsu the other day and just the description of Valkyrie Drive makes me uncomfortable to be honest...
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
I'm already setting myself up for that game to be pretty bad.
Truly mind boggling how they went from chronicles to that.
FallenGrace
Member
Different game ha ha. Isn't that Valkyria Azure or something? I am thinking of some RPG where girls turn into weapons when sexually aroused. I was like wtf?
My statement works for both games however, Chronicles was amazing and now we get generic RPG designs with a Valkyria with "plot" spilling out of her bra
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
Different game ha ha. Isn't that Valkyria Azure or something? I am thinking of some RPG where girls turn into weapons when sexually aroused. I was like wtf?
My statement works for both games however, Chronicles was amazing and now we get generic RPG designs with a Valkyria with "plot" spilling out of her bra
Oh my bad I don't even know about that game then, but yeah I kind of misread because the statement itself kind of fit there really well too.
As for the designs agreed, it's not just that they're generic, it's that they make no sense, clearly seem to cater more to a certain demographic I don't really share tastes with.
Just feels like such a step back after the few good steps taken in VC.
But even beyond that the demo that got released wasn't too convincing.
With the fat thing, they clearly set it up so that all your 'normal' girls are being abused and hounded by the fat girl so it's okay if they lash out at her. It's classic put it off on the victim stuff.
Idk. Analogue common in Japanese stuff would be, say, putting perversion off on the object of perversion. Given what audience they're trying to please, it's clear that when it happens as often as it does, it happens for that reason. Think how many relationships are made more okay because it is the girl that desperately wants the man. Thinking things like little girls throwing themselves at men, sisters being unable to get over brothers, etc.
FallenGrace
Member
No problem, I made the same mistake which is what led me to the Valkyrie Drive article in the first place XD
A bit more on topic most things that have made me uncomfortable in gaming in recent years haven't just been dialogue but whole characters like Cidney and Quiet. There was an exception recently though with the first Trails of Cold Steel:
When you first meet Alissa's grandfather and he's making all these dirty comments at her. He would be arrested for that kind of behaviour here.
I can kind of get the deal with Elise as it's kind of a one way crush on her adopted older brother for the most part but that bit with Alissa was just pointless creepy and unfunny
I can kind of get the deal with Elise as it's kind of a one way crush on her adopted older brother for the most part but that bit with Alissa was just pointless creepy and unfunny
Strangelove77
Member
Jesus Christ, I thought we were going to talk about Life Is Strange dialogue or the FFX laughing scene. Instead we got sadism, homophobia, mass murder, etc.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
I mean yes about the setup thing but for me the "fat attribute" does not define that situation in any way. But I'm not going to say that being offended by it isn't valid. All I'm saying is that this other view exists that I don't think is completely alien? But maybe I'm wrong.
As for the perversion stuff, I fully agree actually. I don't like that stuff either because it often doesn't really amount to much but pandering most of the time. Also I feel like that stuff isn't all that well perceived in Japan either(although I might be wrong on that), it really feels more born out of the attempt to exploit certain fetishes of smaller demographics with high spending power.
But dunno at the same time I'm sure I'm plenty ignorant on that stuff. So beyond my own preferences I don't have anything to share on that topic.
Yup, really all the worst parts of cold steel is them trying to adopt some really questionable trends. Some of them are bad implementation other seem like pure market pandering. But it's still at a level where it's somewhat possible to roll your eyes on it and get to the stuff that made the sky games great which is still there.
The core scenes involve eating and being mostly naked. Attitudes towards fatness are very much salient at those times.
FallingEdge
Member
None of it for me because they are video games. Can't take it seriously to begin with.
McMoneyman
Member
Danganronpa Another Episode: Ultra Despair Girls
The fucked up things that happened to the kids, especially the child molestation plot
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
Dunno to me there is no inherent connection in that it shames her for it to me.
I see it in the way that nothing would really change for me if you'd replace her model with any of the maincast girls. Which is the thing I liked about it. She's clearly comfortable in her skin. Which is always a good message.
Doesn't really matter that she serves the role of being the antagonistic punchline it would have worked the same if it was a different model. Which is basically why it did not evoke a "fat shaming" sentiment to me.
Is that really so out there of a view? Maybe others can comment.
I was a fat kid. Being seen as greedy for food and having my physical form shamed was a huge part of being bullied. These are exactly the notes they hit.
Moreover, being fat as a kid, it is assumed you don't know it. Her confidence is meant as comic relief. My assumed okayness with my body was comic relief.
This is how this shit works.
Edit:
I am a guy, so the running assumption was I was gay--so a lot of flashing, butt slapping that kind of thing. For fat girls I've known, it tends to be instead the assumption that they want to get with hot 'normal' guy x and don't realize how wrong that is because they are fat. Notice this is exactly what they make her be like. I got some of that with respect to girls, but not much. Again, it was mostly the assumption I was a fat, gay, nerd.
She is the embodiment of the fat girl as joke to not fat people in school and she aggressively pushes this on to the poor 'normal' girls and guys who push back.
Edit 2:
Moreover, when I grew tall and lost a lot of my round appearance, the reactions to me completely changed. Now I am generally reacted to positively by men and women. It is a whole different world, and the juxtaposition is fucking disturbing and depressing.
WrenchNinja
Member
The game out in 2008, it's weird to have Persona 4 get these accusations despite being praised at the time for tackling subjects in the first place in a time when games wouldn't dare do it. Like Kanji is questioning his sexuality because of the way people treat him and his own hobbies pushing people away, so his shadow doubles down on his insecurities. Ultimately he realises that those things the Shadow are saying are true and are a part of him and it doesn't really matter if he's straight or gay as long as he accepts himself. As for the Naoto stuff being a bait and switch, it's ignoring the actual identity issues she's facing in the game and gender politics that happen with careers.
I will agree the Hanako jokes are shitty and maybe they should have done more to specifically call out Yosuke's stupid jokes but to dismiss the game altogether because of it seems shortsighted. Especially the Yosuke stuff since it's ignoring that he does get called out on it by Kanji himself during summer vacation.
Persona 4 gets a lot of praise for its world and characters. They all feel fully realised but flawed human beings, from Chie and her problems of feeling like she's not feminine enough, to the baggage Yukiko has for her parents pushing her into a specific career path and wanting some way of escape, to the aimlessness that Yosuke feels and feeling like he's too good for the people around him, etc, and that connects a lot with teenagers and people feeling nostalgia for that time in their life. The world is set in a small town where you get to know these people and places very well. I don't feel like it's that difficult to comprehend why people like it.
SoulUnison
Banned
Kat has a scene in DmC where she tells Dante that she spent her childhood being raped by demons every night.
It comes out of nowhere, the tone and direction of the scene is completely off for it, and it doesn't really affect anything nor is it ever brought up again.
It is a darkly hilariously example of "rape as drama."
It comes out of nowhere, the tone and direction of the scene is completely off for it, and it doesn't really affect anything nor is it ever brought up again.
It is a darkly hilariously example of "rape as drama."
petran79
Banned
Harvester
https://www.destructoid.com/blogs/B...-moments-in-quot-harvester-quot--264665.phtml
The game was pretty tailor-made for controversy, including themes like cannibalism, child molestation, sexual violence, suicide, and war-related PTSD. Even gamers these days may be put off my prominent blemishes like gay stereotypes, some very gory violence against women, and an ending basically meant to troll gamers. Those who can look past these, however are in for a very interesting ride.
https://www.destructoid.com/blogs/B...-moments-in-quot-harvester-quot--264665.phtml
The game was pretty tailor-made for controversy, including themes like cannibalism, child molestation, sexual violence, suicide, and war-related PTSD. Even gamers these days may be put off my prominent blemishes like gay stereotypes, some very gory violence against women, and an ending basically meant to troll gamers. Those who can look past these, however are in for a very interesting ride.