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Should Sony use an upgraded Cell in the PlayStation 4?

Do we know for sure if the 32 SPE CELL got canned?

one roadmap for Cell:
page10.png


Here's an even older roadmap, with a Cell that appears to have 64 SPEs (upper right)
cell_roadmap.jpg



les papillons sexuels said:
so is it ibm or intel? the article says that it could be both.


It's probably IBM.

Intel canned their Larrabee GPGPU project, although it was kinda resurrected in the Knight's Ferry/Corner project.
 
Pimpbaa said:
Just don't pair it with a shitty gpu this time.


This.

I really hope Sony & Nvidia go with at least a mid-range Maxwell generation GPU.
Please don't let it be from the Kepler generation.
For those that don't know, Kepler is Nvidia's successor to Fermi, is due out in 2011 on a 28nm process.
Whereas Maxwell is Kepler's successor, due out in 2013 on a 20nm process.
I don't want to see PS4 with a Kepler GPU in 2013 when Maxwell should be arriving.
It would only repeat the PS3 situation in 2006 where PS3 had the NV47/G70/7800-based RSX when the G80/8800 was coming out for PCs.
 

antonz

Member
herzogzwei1989 said:
This.

I really hope Sony & Nvidia go with at least a mid-range Maxwell generation GPU.
Please don't let it be from the Kepler generation.
For those that don't know, Kepler is Nvidia's successor to Fermi, is due out in 2011 on a 28nm process.
Whereas Maxwell is Kepler's successor, due out in 2013 on a 20nm process.
I don't want to see PS4 with a Kepler GPU in 2013 when Maxwell should be arriving.
It would only repeat the PS3 situation in 2006 where PS3 had the NV47/G70/7800-based RSX when the G80/8800 was coming out for PCs.

The 8i tree is the one that got cut. 8i is the end of the line no more plans for the 32 etc
I think people are going to find that PS4 is much further along in development then most realize. Back in 2010 IBM had already confirmed they were working with Sony and Nintendo on their next console hardware. Might also explain the sudden rush to remaster PSP games etc to free up resources for PS4 games.
 

antonz

Member
pseudocaesar said:
What do you mean?
Well they can release a ton of PSP remasters for PS3 using very limited development resources. Keeps content coming out unlike the Wii style drought and leaves the bulk of development resources to work on PS4 games
 
You underestimate the advancement of the GPUs. Even my shitty GF 250 GTS can run all games at 1080p. With a GF 580 you get Battlefield 3 type of grafics at 1080p or higher.

Nvidia Roadmap:
Nvidia-Roadmap-2.jpg
 
"twice as powerful" in architecture terms is actually really small. a typical generational leap is usually more in the realm of 10x.

Glad you posted that. It's really not that impressive. At all.


PS1 to PS2 was a massive, massive leap. Two orders of magnitude, at least. More than 100x actually, it was something like 200-300x in terms of graphics rendering.

PS2 to PS3 was large, although not as massive as PS1 to PS2.
The PS3 is 35x more powerful than PS2 in terms of CPU floating point/compute performance, and a large leap in graphics, which is more difficult to measure since PS2's Graphics Synthesizer did not really rely on floating point.



maniac-kun said:
Nvidia Roadmap:
Nvidia-Roadmap-2.jpg


I'm expecting Kepler to be another DX11 GPU with greater performance than Fermi, but mostly the same feature-set. I think Maxwell will bring in most of the new features, being DX12-compliant--this is what PS4 needs, IMO.
 

Jin34

Member
maniac-kun said:
You underestimate the advancement of the GPUs. Even my shitty GF 250 GTS can run all games at 1080p. With a GF 580 you get Battlefield 3 type of grafics at 1080p or higher.

Nvidia Roadmap:
Nvidia-Roadmap-2.jpg

HItlO.gif
 

mclaren777

Member
gcubed said:
the question is, with a competent graphics chip, how much more do you need spu's? If the RSX wasn't already old technology when the PS3 launched would dev's have to be offloading things to the SPUs as much as they are now to accomplish their goals?
From the sounds of it, yes. Lots of top-tier developers seem to like the SPU architecture and would prefer to use it even if the PS3 had a better GPU.
 

njean777

Member
Jin34 said:
Dreaming is more accurate than you think because that won't happen.

pc's can do it today, why not the next gen of consoles? you would think the consoles would at least have the hardware we have right now in pc's, in the next consoles...
 

Salacious Crumb

Junior Member
njean777 said:
pc's can do it today, why not the next gen of consoles? you would think the consoles would at least have the hardware we have right now in pc's, in the next consoles...

Power/Heat/Reliability. That's why not.
 

Jin34

Member
njean777 said:
pc's can do it today, why not the next gen of consoles? you would think the consoles would at least have the hardware we have right now in pc's, in the next consoles...

It has very little to do with the hardware, it's about what the devs/pubs want. And they generally sacrifice IQ in favor of better graphics because that shows up more in the marketing (screens, videos) while they can use bullshots to make the IQ seem pristine.
 

itxaka

Defeatist
It makes sense. I mean, the point behind the cell development was that they could bump it with spe and that other thing (ppu?) for bigger stuff and cut them for smaller staff like laptops and tvs.

BTW what OS supports cell? As they mention netbooks there should be an OS to support it. Windows 8 cell version?
 
Hopefully the PS4 GPU is a custom job unlike RSX which was just a cut-down version of the GeForce 7800 with a few things added to help it talk to Cell. PS4 needs a tailor-made GPU for the console space. Hopefully EDRAM will make a return. Something notably lacking in RSX.
 

Dreohboy

Junior Member
This article is probably crap, but I'd put money on the PS4 cpu being a derivative of the cell architecture. Who doesn't think the unit will have spes?
 

Quasar

Member
Dreohboy said:
This article is probably crap, but I'd put money on the PS4 cpu being a derivative of the cell architecture.

Where else could they go? x86 derived? Arm (when is Project Denver supposed to appear?)? Certainly the comments about not investing like they did the PS3 would suggest something that's more standard based.

Would a non-Cell derived architecture upset developers more?
 

antonz

Member
The one thing we know for sure is IBM is making the processor. Will it be a true cell or one of the cell technology integrated into normal line chips is the question.

IBM confirmed in 2010 they were already making the chips for Nintendo and Sony so whatever is the case its happening just may not be how smarthouse says
 
Ploid 3.0 said:
Instead of not using 7 SPUs devs will not use 15ish SPUs.

2007 called. They want their snark back.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the linked story in the first post. For one, a 32 SPU "quad cell" would actually be relatively easy to manufacture today, so there's no reason to be impressed by a 16 SPU model. A quad Cell would be around the same transistor count as a Sandybridge from Intel or a Phenom II X6. By 2014 I'd expect something better than that. Depending on how much modification Sony wants to do, a 64 SPU model, maybe with a couple improved PPUs, instead of more old PPUs than you need, should be feasible by then.

That may seem like an awful lot of execution units with no easy way to use them, but developers have finally done a good job of getting on top of the Cell architecture and all that experience, all those tools and that same code would be directly applicable going forward. The interesting thing is there aren't any clear alternatives that can even touch a Cell in pure FLOPs. Even a 6 core i7 is about half as fast as the current Cell. Maybe Intel could make a 12 core i7 by 2014, but you're still comparing it to a new generation of Cell that is 4-8+ times as fast. And you'll still be facing the same fundamental design problems of trying to effectively use 24 threads.
 
Would be interesting if Cell was integrated into the POWER7 line. Imagine a PS4 with several POWER7 cores and 32 SPE. Combine with Rambus Terabyte Initiative RAM and a damn good custom Nvidia Maxwell GPU. Would make PS4 a real monster. Probably not in the cards though, with Sony most likely wanting to be more conservative this time around, for many reasons.
 

Quasar

Member
herzogzwei1989 said:
Would be interesting if Cell was integrated into the POWER7 line. Imagine a PS4 with several POWER7 cores and 32 SPE.

Are the POWER processors way too power hungry?
 
maniac-kun said:
You underestimate the advancement of the GPUs. Even my shitty GF 250 GTS can run all games at 1080p. With a GF 580 you get Battlefield 3 type of grafics at 1080p or higher.
No you cant. A GTS 250 would struggle to run 720p High settings on most games these days.
 

thetrin

Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Jin34 said:
Dreaming is more accurate than you think because that won't happen.

Why wouldn't it? PC games are doing it today.
 
Afrikan said:
I think they are talking about this...

The deal only got worse for Sony. Both designs were delivered on time to IBM's manufacturing division, but there was a problem with the first chip run. Microsoft had had the foresight to order backup manufacturing capacity from a third party. Sony did not and had to wait another six weeks to get their first chips. So Microsoft actually got the chip that Sony helped design before Sony did. In the end, Microsoft's Xbox 360 hit its target launch in November 2005, becoming its own success. Because of various delays, the Playstation 3 was pushed back a full year.

[/URL]

What in the world?! this story is insane, what type of different gaming world would we be living in today if Sony had signed some type of gaming exclusivity agreement?
 
I posted this in the other PlayStation 4 thread. It's going here also, for maximum chances of a response.

I feel that bandwidth should be a major focus of PS4. It wasn't really with PS3. The PS3 was, at least in one major way, a step back from PS2. The RSX GPU lacked any kind of high-bandwidth EDRAM. RSX only had an external memory bus (128-bit) to the GDDR3 memory--Half the bus width of the G70/7800 for PCs which were 256-bit. The PS2's Graphics Synthesizer had a small amount (4MB) of incredibly high bandwidth (for the time) EDRAM @ 48 GB/sec thanks to its on-chip 2560-bit bus. Now I recall a statement by Nvidia's Tony Tamasi from 2004 where he said that top-end games may need upto 3 TeraBytes/sec of bandwidth.

"The bandwidth requirements of game platforms and graphical applications have been growing exponentially," Steven Woo, Rambus' senior principal engineer at Rambus, told Tom's Hardware Guide. "About every five or six years, it goes up by a factor of 10. PlayStation 3, for example, will have a memory bandwidth capability of 50 GByte per second." If this trend continues, projected Woo, a theoretical 2010 model "PlayStation 4" could require ten times the memory bandwidth as next year's PlayStation 3. A statistical projection made in 2004 by NVIDIA's Vice President of Technical Marketing, Tony Tamasi - cited by Woo - anticipates that a top-of-the-line 3D game could conceivably require memory bandwidth of 3 TByte per second.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/xdr2-quintuple-memory-data-transfer-speeds-2007,1152.html

That sort of bandwidth is not going to happen with any kind of main system or graphics memory. Even Rambus is "only" going for 1 TeraByte bandwidth with their Terabyte Bandwidth Initiative. I think the only kind of memory that could reach Tony's projection of 3 TeraBytes/sec would be embedded memory. The Xbox 360's Xenos GPU had 10MB of EDRAM which provided 256 GigaBytes/sec bandwidth between the EDRAM and the processors on the daughter die. That was 2004 technology released in 2005. I would imagine, all these years later, that 3 TeraBytes/sec (12x Xenos' EDRAM bandwidth) might be possible.
 

antonz

Member
herzogzwei1989 said:
I posted this in the other PlayStation4 thread. It's going here also, for maximum chances of a response.
Tamasi was doing alot of speculating on where he thought the industry would move in that time period. As he states if trends continued it would reach a certain point. Obviously trends are not maintaining as we are only nearing 1/3 of what he estimated.

I think it was alot of heads in the cloud super optimistic expectations of where technology would advance. Though I do think technology in some areas hasnt advanced nearly as fast as people were expecting due to missteps and even just the reality of diminishing returns.
 
antonz said:
Tamasi was doing alot of speculating on where he thought the industry would move in that time period. As he states if trends continued it would reach a certain point. Obviously trends are not maintaining as we are only nearing 1/3 of what he estimated.

I think it was alot of heads in the cloud super optimistic expectations of where technology would advance. Though I do think technology in some areas hasnt advanced nearly as fast as people were expecting due to missteps and even just the reality of diminishing returns.


Perhaps Tamasi was the Ken Kutaragi of Nvidia ?
 
I think PS4 should support the emerging Ultra High Definition Television standard ( 7680 × 4320p), that's 16x the resolution of 1080p HDTV. Would be so awezome.

that's a joke
 

Jarmel

Banned
TheOddOne said:
So, basically a repeat of this gen. Damn :(

Well it should almost certainly be a reality. The only excuse would be if developers all backed off of going 1080p due to laziness or cost. 720P was the unofficial goal for this generation.
 
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