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Miyamoto needs to go take a seat somewhere.

my problem isn't the lack of story, it's that the metric which use to define what makes a good game is constantly changing based on some non-existent criteria.

I remember the review for mario galaxy on gametrailers, and the review for modnation racers (they came out roughly the same time irrc), guess which one had a category for story? Guess which one had multiplayer factored into longevity?

mario is a solid platforming game, but our expectations for it are extremely low from a gaming standpoint. Most other developers are expected to include some kind of deep multiplayer mechanics and story element, but this goes out the window when we start looking at mario. I get there's pedigree, but that doesn't mean I agree with it.

I feel the same way for lots of games, particularly sequels which fail to actually do anything to their games except add a fresh coat of paint.

That siad, even I fall hypocrit to this.
 
YoungBlade said:
What about Mario meeting his partners? What about Peach meeting the Computer AI in TTYD and developing a relationship with it? What about Peach being possessed in TTYD, did you really see that coming? What about Bowser interacting with his minions or Kami? What about Vivian eventually turning good and joining Mario's side? What about Koops looking for his father? If you really don't consider any of this development, then there might be a problem with what you consider character development.
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He thinks Super Paper Mario is the staple in that series, he's a lost cause at this point.

The environments in The Thousand Year Door were also varied, Twilight Town, Wrestling Stadium, going inside of a tree facility, pirate island, being involved in a train murder mystery, just so many well thought locales that never existed in the standard Mario games.
 
MormaPope said:
Dude, your defense on why the Paper Mario RPG's aren't needed is complete hogwash. You are very, very wrong in this situation.

The Thousand Year Door takes Mario tropes and cleverly expands them in charming and intelligent ways. I don't even know what you're defending or what your point is.
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My point is, that Paper Mario do not need a serious story. Until it has a clear timeline, story line, or the game can change something, it wont matter. Because we all know that at the end of the day, Mario will save Peach and Bowser will lose. And the next Paper Mario will be about how Bowser kidnap Peach and Mario go to save her.
Even with Zelda we have some kind of development and consequence for the actions of the hero.
I like Paper Mario, but I dont care about the story at all. I'm with Myamoto on this one.
 
RawkHawk2010 said:
"Does DKC really need Kremlings?"

"Does Super Mario Galaxy really need lore of any kind?"

"Does Sticker Star, a game from a story/character driven series, really need any story/characters?"

Honestly, who the fuck does Miyamoto think he is? We all know Miyamoto is a dude of relentlessly rigid conservatism, but it's clearly getting worse with each game he's been even marginally-involved in. Oh, and I bring this up now of all times because wasn't the man supposed to "step down" and assume a less-meddling position as part of that 2012 Nintendo restructure rumor?

...I guess that would have happened by now if it were true, but I still have faith GAF! I mean, I have to. I don't know if I can stand seeing another one of my beloved franchises harpooned by Miyamoto's toxic gameplay-first philosophies. Can you just imagine?

"Does Kid Icarus: Uprising 2 really need story, characters, or dialogue?" (Oh Palutena, help us all!)

Discuss.
Click to expand...

Nah, son. Nah.
 
MormaPope said:
He thinks Super Paper Mario is the staple in that series, he's a lost cause at this point.

The environments in The Thousand Year Door were also varied, Twilight Town, Wrestling Stadium, going inside of a tree facility, pirate island, being involved in a train murder mystery, just so many well thought locales that never existed in the standard Mario games.
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Yeah, TTYD was truly the peak of Paper Mario. So much characters, things to do, environments, all colorful and unique with amazing dialogue to go along with it.
 
OP, I get your argument and even agree to an extent that Miyamoto should just let the younglings fly on their own wings sometimes without sticking his old man "wisdom" into something that doesn't need it, but your examples are all over the place. Sticker Star sure since I think the majority can agree that the Paper Mario series is experimenting but has also been devolving with the last two games without any sidekick partners, but then you toss out a regular Mario game having a story. And your Kremlings argument is hit-or-miss.
 
Miyamoto is an amazing designer, but his involvement in every Nintendo franchise has done more harm than anything else.
Instead of having multiple teams with different talent, his patronizing oversight has really caused a homogenization of styles and ambitions.

I personally want Miyamoto off the general producer role and back into director seats. Not every Nintendo Game needs his design values, and his designs are best when completely built from the ground up around his principles and style.
 
Rubius said:
My point is, that Paper Mario do not need a serious story. Until it has a clear timeline, story line, or the game can change something, it wont matter. Because we all know that at the end of the day, Mario will save Peach and Bowser will lose. And the next Paper Mario will be about how Bowser kidnap Peach and Mario go to save her.
Even with Zelda we have some kind of development and consequence for the actions of the hero.
I like Paper Mario, but I dont care about the story at all. I'm with Myamoto on this one.
Click to expand...

So if a Mario RPG has one trope that barely exists in the game, it's story and everything else, characters, writing, dialog, charm, don't make up for that one trope? Your logic is astounding.

I'd take the Thousand Year Door Mario type of games over straight forward Mario sequel after sequel anytime. The ending of Thousand Year Door makes me tear up, I felt more in the last 5 minutes of Thousand Year Door than 100s of hours playing Mario platformers.
 
Rubius said:
Because we all know that at the end of the day, Mario will save Peach and Bowser will lose. And the next Paper Mario will be about how Bowser kidnap Peach and Mario go to save her.
Click to expand...
But it doesn't have to be like this, and The Thousand Year Door and Super Paper Mario serve as proof.

I don't think a game needs a story to be good, but a good game with a good story and good characters can be even better. I'm finally going to play Sticker Star soon, but I'm already a bit disappointed knowing that it could have been The Thousand Year Door 2.
 
RawkHawk2010 said:
"Does DKC really need Kremlings?"

"Does Super Mario Galaxy really need lore of any kind?"

"Does Sticker Star, a game from a story/character driven series, really need any story/characters?"

Honestly, who the fuck does Miyamoto think he is? We all know Miyamoto is a dude of relentlessly rigid conservatism, but it's clearly getting worse with each game he's been even marginally-involved in. Oh, and I bring this up now of all times because wasn't the man supposed to "step down" and assume a less-meddling position as part of that 2012 Nintendo restructure rumor?

...I guess that would have happened by now if it were true, but I still have faith GAF! I mean, I have to. I don't know if I can stand seeing another one of my beloved franchises harpooned by Miyamoto's toxic gameplay-first philosophies. Can you just imagine?

"Does Kid Icarus: Uprising 2 really need story, characters, or dialogue?" (Oh Palutena, help us all!)

Discuss.
Click to expand...

yWxe3.gif



No but seriously. Folks do need to keep perspective. There are few things worse than games that force "narrative" where it need not be, leading to a terrible game. We bitch about it when it happens all the time... But here you are, mildly suggesting that perhaps adding some sort of story to a mainline Mario platformer that isn't extremely simplistic; is a good idea.

Its not a good idea...
 
Rubius said:
My point is, that Paper Mario do not need a serious story. Until it has a clear timeline, story line, or the game can change something, it wont matter. Because we all know that at the end of the day, Mario will save Peach and Bowser will lose. And the next Paper Mario will be about how Bowser kidnap Peach and Mario go to save her.
Even with Zelda we have some kind of development and consequence for the actions of the hero.
I like Paper Mario, but I dont care about the story at all. I'm with Myamoto on this one.
Click to expand...

What the hell are you even talking about?

99% of fiction is worthless going off what you're saying.
 
He's right on everything except Paper Mario. Taking the RPG out of an action-RPG is crossing the line. (And from what I remember, the Intelligent Systems which made TTYD and Path of Radiance has largely different personnel.) But it's OK, you can revel in Other M.
 
les papillons sexuels said:
micromanaging competent design teams condition?
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Competent design teams are not immune to getting lost in the forest for the trees. Been there, done that. A game director's ultimate role is too keep the team focused on what matters.
 
Rubius said:
My point is, that Paper Mario do not need a serious story. Until it has a clear timeline, story line, or the game can change something, it wont matter. Because we all know that at the end of the day, Mario will save Peach and Bowser will lose. And the next Paper Mario will be about how Bowser kidnap Peach and Mario go to save her.
Even with Zelda we have some kind of development and consequence for the actions of the hero.
I like Paper Mario, but I dont care about the story at all. I'm with Myamoto on this one.
Click to expand...

something about the adventure and the destination something something
 
les papillons sexuels said:
my problem isn't the lack of story, it's that the metric which use to define what makes a good game is constantly changing based on some non-existent criteria.

I remember the review for mario galaxy on gametrailers, and the review for modnation racers (they came out roughly the same time irrc), guess which one had a category for story? Guess which one had multiplayer factored into longevity?

mario is a solid platforming game, but our expectations for it are extremely low from a gaming standpoint. Most other developers are expected to include some kind of deep multiplayer mechanics and story element, but this goes out the window when we start looking at mario. I get there's pedigree, but that doesn't mean I agree with it.

I feel the same way for lots of games, particularly sequels which fail to actually do anything to their games except add a fresh coat of paint.

That siad, even I fall hypocrit to this.
Click to expand...

I don't think reviewers should criticize a game for lack of multiplayer, they should only judge the game modes included. So I don't think Galaxy got a pass, but that reviewers are unfairly harsh if they hold other games accountable for not having multiplayer (like Metroid Prime 3).

And I don't think story should be judged by how deep it is, but by how it meshes with the gameplay. Many games I find the story to actually make it worse even if the story itself isn't so bad. But I don't mind when games just ignore the story aspect altogether as long as the gameplay or other elements carry the game.

Games should just be judged on how the final product entertains the player/reviewer overall, regardless of how good or bad some aspects may be. If they do or don't work it will reflect in the total experience.

Quackula said:
I just want to point out that Miyamoto was the one who insisted that Metroid Prime be in first person.
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Interesting. Odd that he would be in favor of basically abandoning the platforming aspects of Metroid since he's rooted in games like Mario and Donkey Kong. But it obviously worked amazingly.
Almost too well, I want another Super Metroid.
 
Miyamoto was the one who pressured for less story in mario games, so you got that wrong.

Edit:

Sorry I completely misunderstood the point of the post.
You're actually complaining about the lack of story? What a joke. Gameplay all the way. Go and read a book or something.
 
Xellos said:
Can't believe Sticker Star is actually getting backlash. It's great. It might not be as zany as previous games, but the gameplay is there and it does have a good sense of humor.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I really think it deserves it. I don't want Nintendo to take the series in this direction at all. It's still a decent game, it's just that it's so inferior to the first two games in the series. Actually, I even prefer Super Paper Mario to it, to be honest. The gameplay in that game was a bit meh, but the story, characters and humour were great and mostly made up for the gameplay, even if it didn't live up to the first two games. Sticker Star has meh gameplay, but it also has no story or characters to make up for it. The music was great though.
 
linkratos said:
Interesting. Odd that he would be in favor of basically abandoning the platforming aspects of Metroid since he's rooted in games like Mario and Donkey Kong. But it obviously worked amazingly.
Almost too well, I want another Super Metroid.
Click to expand...

I think it's arguable that Metroid was never really about the platforming so much as the exploration. Prime nailed that really well.

...and I agree, we are so overdue for a new 2D Metroid.
 
The lack of lore in Nintendo games generally allows for some pretty expansive interpretation from fans. This fan intepretation is a lot of reason why I love so much about games that lack lore. The player is free to impose their own reasoning behind the gameplay. Fighting games are a great example of this. Lore in fighting games has always been notoriously bad or minimal. So for example, when Ryu and Ken fistbump in Third Strike, it's so fucking cool. It's fanservice for all the years I've spent playing this franchise. It's like the smallest possible thing that could occur but it's so great. The lore is expressed in a way that doesn't impede gameplay and immediately sums up their relationship and character. Nintendo similarly doesn't need lore, it would hinder the logic produced by the fanbase.

tumblr_m28uzofQ6R1qhoxx9o1_1280.gif
 
DeaconKnowledge said:
Seems like he's just personifying Miyamoto as Nintendo like a lot of people do.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it doesn't help that Tezuka has the same philosophy though.
There are directors who make games different to Miyamoto's games, so I don't see the problem. In fact, there are people in GAF who can't stand Sakurai's direction, which is like the complete opposite of Miyamoto's philosophy.

Anyway, it's a stupid thread because Miyamoto is going to take a backseat very soon and focus on smaller projects.
So let's see when people start to whine because of whatever reasons they might have.
 
SupaNaab said:
The lack of lore in Nintendo games generally allows for some pretty expansive interpretation from fans. This fan intepretation is a lot of reason why I love so much about games that lack lore. The player is free to impose their own reasoning behind the gameplay. Fighting games are a great example of this. Lore in fighting games has always been notoriously bad or minimal. So for example, when Ryu and Ken fistbump in Third Strike, it's so fucking cool. It's fanservice for all the years I've spent playing this franchise. It's like the smallest possible thing that could occur but it's so great. The lore is expressed in a way that doesn't impede gameplay and immediately sums up their relationship and character. Nintendo similarly doesn't need lore, it would hinder the logic produced by the fanbase.
Click to expand...

There's a lot more lore in Street Fighter than you might realize.

Some of that shit is absolutely insane, especially the stuff with Cammy and M. Bison.
 
Neo C. said:
Yeah, it doesn't help that Tezuka has the same philosophy though.
There are directors who make games different to Miyamoto's games, so I don't see the problem. In fact, there are people in GAF who can't stand Sakurai's direction, which is like the complete opposite of Miyamoto's philosophy.

Anyway, it's a stupid thread because Miyamoto is going to take a backseat very soon and focus on smaller projects.
So let's see when people starts to whine because of whatever reasons they might have.
Click to expand...

Which is sad since Sakurai's direction would actually benefit some of the current Nintendo franchises, namely multiplayer games as well as being willing to give fucking options to the player without forcing him to use one thing whether its haphazard or not.

Anyway, from what I notice, people whining usually take things for granted, and then once its gone, they miss it. Minor things like Indestructible being gone or hating trumpets in Gen 3 Pokemon games, only to go wheres the trumpets, probably some bigger things too, like Twilight Princess being like OoT. Careful what you wish/whine for.
 
I don't think Mario, Zelda, or Metroid should have any story.

I do think they could stand to make meaningful changes and updates to their formula and gameplay (zelda especially). I'm also not opposed to Nintendo creating new IPs that do focus more on story. These are their more toxic failings.
 
Quackula said:
I think it's arguable that Metroid was never really about the platforming so much as the exploration. Prime nailed that really well.

...and I agree, we are so overdue for a new 2D Metroid.
Click to expand...

I agree, and that's why it worked so well. But I think the platforming aspects added a lot of fun to Super. I think Prime is a great example of a game changing things up successfully, similar to RE4, which means it left some concepts behind to improve others. While first-person limited platforming it improved the atmosphere and freshened the perspective. Combat was good but nothing special in both games, while puzzles are still amazing in both.
 
raziel said:
I don't think Mario, Zelda, or Metroid should have any story.

I do think they could stand to make meaningful changes and updates to their formula and gameplay (zelda especially). I'm also not opposed to Nintendo creating new IPs that do focus more on story. These are their more toxic failings.
Click to expand...

Metroid Prime did story in Metroid really well. Everything was told to you via optional Pirate Logs and Chozo Lore, it really added something to the game imo.

I feel that the lore adds a lot to Zelda too, especially stuff like ALTTP or even Ocarina of Time. I sorta agree that there's a bit too much focus on narrative in Zelda these days, but I still liked the most recent Zelda titles anyway.

Skyward Sword was probably the biggest shakeup to the traditional Zelda formula we've seen in a really long time, and look how well that seems to have gone over...
 
Huh, lot of Nintendo related topics now. Something is coming.

Eh, I don't like Miyamoto's suggestions for DKCR with the blowing mechanic for instance. I don't mind with Sticker Star though. I'm playing it right now and I think its charming. The old bad battlemechanic returned which is great (which for me, is the real reason to play the Paper Mario-series) and the sticker gameplay is fun, although I have more issues with the implementation of the thing stickers.

I might not agree with every choice he makes, but he's far from toxic.
 
RawkHawk2010 said:
There are lots of things games don't need that still significantly enhance the experience.
Click to expand...

It's Mario GALAXY. What do you need to know beyond Mario in space jumping on Bowser's minions to rescue a princess?

Oh yeah, NOTHING. Let's reexamine how great stories have been for other space adventures in Nintendo franchises?

-Kinda ruined Star Fox in the end.
-Range from acceptable in Metroid to birthday-cancelingly bad.

IT'S MARIO GALAXY. WHY WOULD IT NEED LORE?
 
RawkHawk2010 said:
"Does DKC really need Kremlings?"

"Does Super Mario Galaxy really need lore of any kind?"

"Does Sticker Star, a game from a story/character driven series, really need any story/characters?"

Honestly, who the fuck does Miyamoto think he is? We all know Miyamoto is a dude of relentlessly rigid conservatism, but it's clearly getting worse with each game he's been even marginally-involved in. Oh, and I bring this up now of all times because wasn't the man supposed to "step down" and assume a less-meddling position as part of that 2012 Nintendo restructure rumor?

...I guess that would have happened by now if it were true, but I still have faith GAF! I mean, I have to. I don't know if I can stand seeing another one of my beloved franchises harpooned by Miyamoto's toxic gameplay-first philosophies. Can you just imagine?

"Does Kid Icarus: Uprising 2 really need story, characters, or dialogue?" (Oh Palutena, help us all!)

Discuss.
Click to expand...


FUCK YES to everything you just said.

hVAcE.png


Forget the Miyamoto worshiping hive mind that you see here: you and I both know that it's time for the old man to step aside and let the younger guys like Yoshiaki Koizumi and others have a chance to do what they want with the series.

CorvoSol said:
It's Mario GALAXY. What do you need to know beyond Mario in space jumping on Bowser's minions to rescue a princess?

Oh yeah, NOTHING. Let's reexamine how great stories have been for other space adventures in Nintendo franchises?

-Kinda ruined Star Fox in the end.
-Range from acceptable in Metroid to birthday-cancelingly bad.

IT'S MARIO GALAXY. WHY WOULD IT NEED LORE?
Click to expand...

And yet the lore it did have did not take away from the experience, did it?
Please, tell me all about how the completely optional storybook segments didn't make the game a richer experience for the Mario diehards who want more of a story in their games.
 
RockXLight said:
FUCK YES to everything you just said.





And yet the lore it did have to did not take away from the experience, did it?
Please, tell me all about how the completely optional storybook segments didn't make the game a richer experience for the Mario diehards who want more of a story in their games.
Click to expand...

Who needs more story in a Mario game when Mama Robotnik provides us detailed accounts of Peach's infidelity anyway?
 
CorvoSol said:
Who needs more story in a Mario game when Mama Robotnik provides us detailed accounts of Peach's infidelity anyway?
Click to expand...

I guess I do, because the story is the main reason I vastly prefer Mario Galaxy to Mario Galaxy 2.

I've been playing Mario games since I first played Super Mario Bros. 3 when I was six years old.
Learning the names of all the characters, worlds, and enemies since then means that "Bowser kidnaps Princess, Mario to the rescue" just isn't exciting anymore. The story doesn't have to be anything special--just slightly deeper than that, considering the depth and breadth of the Mario universe (which is something they usually only capitalize on in the RPGs).
 
Pureauthor said:
This is what leads to shit like Other M, people.
Click to expand...
No, this is what leads to Paper Mario 3DS. As someone said, I'm sure the OP probably meant more in the veins of "abandon everything else except basic gameplay to cater for the masses" approach that Miyamoto seems to have had with some games. It's perfectly fine for Super Mario Galaxy, it's not fine for Paper Mario, which has always thrived on its humor and the RPG elements have brought some depth to the game.
 
Orayn said:
The cherry on top is that the charming dialogue and tone of the games that people love to much are almost entirely the creation of Treehouse in their localization process. The games' original scripts are pretty simple and generic by comparison, since they're sort of marketed as "Jr. RPGs" that kids and people who aren't big into the genre can follow and enjoy.
Click to expand...
Do you have any proof of this?
 
I was ready to go into Paper Mario close to when it launched, because I was expecting at least a few RPG elements, but it turned out that Miyamoto had stripped out all the RPG in it. When I saw the quicklook at GiantBomb, I saw what the game had become and decided that I would rather not buy it. If I want a Mario platformer, I'll play the other 100 mario platformers thanks.
 
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