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PS Eye = Kinect ?

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
that's something we would have to wait to get more info about, it could be just a USB 3.0 port made for the PS4Eye or it could have special hardware at the input that will help process the video as it comes in from the PlayStation4Eye.

Well they used USB for the PSEye, but they were not compliant with the specs (they saturate the bus). This time they may have just changed the plug to avoid specification limitations.
 

PistolGrip

sex vacation in Guam
Sony should just bite the bullet and ship every PS4 with one of these.

compo_01.jpg


Along with the new PSEYE of course.
 

onQ123

Member
check out this video

Introducing the // DUO


DUO it's like Leap Motion but it's made using 2 PlayStation Eye cameras & some other parts I'm not sure of everything that's in it but this should give people an idea of what PlayStation4Eye could do.



http://www.duo3d.com/about/kit

"Built for 2 PS3 Eyes in Stereo
Dimensions: 172x80x17mm
640x480/320x240 Resolution
RAW Bayer Sensor Data
Tracking Up to 187 FPS
USB 2.0 Interface "


ISO.jpg



this is the reason I was hoping that the PS4 controller would have had the 2 cameras in it like the Patent.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Alx said:
I don't say it's impossible, but it's very CPU-GPU expensive, and less reliable in changing conditions.
Light condition sensitive sure - but the expense is relative - we've seen demos a year ago with depth-extraction using multiple view points using ~1 Vita CPU core. Not free - but hardly massive, and that Flops advantage needs to be put to use somewhere :p
 

Alx

Member
Light condition sensitive sure - but the expense is relative - we've seen demos a year ago with depth-extraction using multiple view points using ~1 Vita CPU core. Not free - but hardly massive, and that Flops advantage needs to be put to use somewhere :p

It's more than light conditions : depth measurement through stereovision is much harder to do on non-textured surfaces. Estimating the depth on a plain white shirt (or any other color actually) will mostly work on creases, collars and buttons.

Here's a demo of what you could expect from stereovision with perfect conditions :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pydla1fPfBw&feature=player_detailpage#t=45s

You can notice that there are many parts where depth is unknown (all the black parts), and it makes it even harder for the body tracking algorithms to be reliable.

I would be interested by that demo of depth measurement using a vita core, though. It's been some time since I have seen recent benchmarks of stereo processing. Do you have a link ?
 
All I know is that as a 3-console owner, the top of my TV is going to be a total bloody mess. These next-gen things better come with clips - the blu-tak on my wii sensor is a less-than ideal solution.
 

FordGTGuy

Banned
I dont understand you get his point. He is basically saying that there are tricks you can do to get depth . Move is a good example of being able to do better 3d tracking of a single lit object than anything else on the market.

Will this new solution be better than Kinect at full 3d body tracking probably not claiming it is worse just because there is an IR camera in kinect is foolish.

These "tricks" limit what 2D cameras can do most likely why the new PS Eye has two cameras so it can see depth.

you may consider a 7 year gap too.

I hope it is not included in the box unless it is cheap enough to keep the price of the system affordable.

I'm not the one that was trying to compare them.
 

yurinka

Member
check out this video

Introducing the // DUO


DUO it's like Leap Motion but it's made using 2 PlayStation Eye cameras & some other parts I'm not sure of everything that's in it but this should give people an idea of what PlayStation4Eye could do.

http://www.duo3d.com/about/kit

"Built for 2 PS3 Eyes in Stereo
Dimensions: 172x80x17mm
640x480/320x240 Resolution
RAW Bayer Sensor Data
Tracking Up to 187 FPS
USB 2.0 Interface "

this is the reason I was hoping that the PS4 controller would have had the 2 cameras in it like the Patent.

You're the man in this topic, I love the videos you post. This one looks really cool.

If the PS4 Eye camera is placed on the TV instead of under your hand, do you think that they would be allowed to detect these things with your fingers?

Or maybe the reason of PS4 having 2 meters of cable is to place it under your hands?
 

spwolf

Member
did anyone post how Yoshida said that 2 cameras can be used by software independently? he said one for video chat and other for head tracking or something close to that.

Thats pretty cool actually.
 

onQ123

Member
It's more than light conditions : depth measurement through stereovision is much harder to do on non-textured surfaces. Estimating the depth on a plain white shirt (or any other color actually) will mostly work on creases, collars and buttons.

Here's a demo of what you could expect from stereovision with perfect conditions :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pydla1fPfBw&feature=player_detailpage#t=45s


You can notice that there are many parts where depth is unknown (all the black parts), and it makes it even harder for the body tracking algorithms to be reliable.

I would be interested by that demo of depth measurement using a vita core, though. It's been some time since I have seen recent benchmarks of stereo processing. Do you have a link ?


The DUO made with 2 PlayStation Eyes didn't seem to have any problems in the video & from the looks of it kicked the shit out of Kinect 1 & it's IR camera.


You're the man in this topic, I love the videos you post. This one looks really cool.

If the PS4 Eye camera is placed on the TV instead of under your hand, do you think that they would be allowed to detect these things with your fingers?

Or maybe the reason of PS4 having 2 meters of cable is to place it under your hands?

Being almost 4X the resolution as the PlayStation Eye cameras used in the DUO should give the PlayStation4 Eye more distance to play with so it might be able to track your fingers from the TV to your couch especially if it's pointing down at a angle from the top of your TV getting a overhead view of your hands while you're seated.

I think the way that they are doing these Stereo Camera 3D tracking so well with DUO & Leap is by making a virtual 3D grid box\room around it so when you place your hands or anything else inside of the 3D box it will have a perfect representation of the object inside of the 3D grid. if the PlayStation4 Eye does the same thing it could just make your whole room into this 3D grid & have a perfect 3D model of you as you walk around your room.

Still_for_article-hero_large_verge_medium_landscape.jpg


sony_playstation_store_holodeck.jpg




did anyone post how Yoshida said that 2 cameras can be used by software independently? he said one for video chat and other for head tracking or something close to that.

Thats pretty cool actually.

That's pretty smart that way you can be playing a game & using the head tracking at 640×400 @ 120fps while the video chat is 1280 x 800 @ 60 or 30FPS.
 

Alx

Member
The DUO made with 2 PlayStation Eyes didn't seem to have any problems in the video & from the looks of it kicked the shit out of Kinect 1 & it's IR camera.

Well first I wouldn't completely trust a "prototype video" from a kickstarter company... and you can't compare devices used for different conditions and environments. Tracking a hand at close distance with the ceiling as a background is a very controlled scenario. Tracking a user with unknown clothes, at unknown distance, with an unknow background, is another story.

Being almost 4X the resolution as the PlayStation Eye cameras used in the DUO should give the PlayStation4 Eye more distance to play with so it might be able to track your fingers from the TV to your couch especially if it's pointing down at a angle from the top of your TV getting a overhead view of your hands while you're seated.

The difficulty with finger tracking is not only resolution, but self-occlusion of fingers. Even Leap Motion cannot track them correctly at a few cm when occlusion is too important.

I think the way that they are doing these Stereo Camera 3D tracking so well with DUO & Leap is by making a virtual 3D grid box\room around it so when you place your hands or anything else inside of the 3D box it will have a perfect representation of the object inside of the 3D grid. if the PlayStation4 Eye does the same thing it could just make your whole room into this 3D grid & have a perfect 3D model of you as you walk around your room.

That doesn't make any sense... the "grid" you see in those pictures is only axes of the rendering of the measured 3D data. No camera can ignore an object outside a given volume without measuring depth first. The range of detection is defined by the limitation of the technology, not by an arbitrary definition of a measurement space.
 

onQ123

Member
Well first I wouldn't completely trust a "prototype video" from a kickstarter company... and you can't compare devices used for different conditions and environments. Tracking a hand at close distance with the ceiling as a background is a very controlled scenario. Tracking a user with unknown clothes, at unknown distance, with an unknow background, is another story.




The difficulty with finger tracking is not only resolution, but self-occlusion of fingers. Even Leap Motion cannot track them correctly at a few cm when occlusion is too important.



That doesn't make any sense... the "grid" you see in those pictures is only axes of the rendering of the measured 3D data. No camera can ignore an object outside a given volume without measuring depth first. The range of detection is defined by the limitation of the technology, not by an arbitrary definition of a measurement space.

??? how does that counter what I said?
 

Alx

Member
Like I said, your sentence doesn't make sense, so I'm not even sure what you were getting at. But there is no link between the quality of tracking and the rendering of depth measurement in a 3D grid, like you seemed to say with "I think the way that they are doing these Stereo Camera 3D tracking so well with DUO & Leap is by making a virtual 3D grid box\room around it".
It's because the tracking is good that you can render it on a 3D grid, not the other way round (actually you can just as easily render a bad tracking on a 3D grid... it's only display).
 

onQ123

Member
Like I said, your sentence doesn't make sense, so I'm not even sure what you were getting at. But there is no link between the quality of tracking and the rendering of depth measurement in a 3D grid, like you seemed to say with "I think the way that they are doing these Stereo Camera 3D tracking so well with DUO & Leap is by making a virtual 3D grid box\room around it".
It's because the tracking is good that you can render it on a 3D grid, not the other way round (actually you can just as easily render a bad tracking on a 3D grid... it's only display).

I'm not talking about the rendering I'm talking about using the Virtual 3D Grid to get a good idea of where you are & represent that in the game.

kinda like what's being done with the SmartAR but with a full 3D grid of the room

"SmartAR"

"SmartAR"
 

Alx

Member
But there's no grid to be used. All the software has as raw information is one image from each camera, where there is no grid to be seen, virtual or not. The pixel analysis can extract 3D coordinates on many points, that you can display on a grid if you want, but at no time is the grid part of the measurement.
 

onQ123

Member
But there's no grid to be used. All the software has as raw information is one image from each camera, where there is no grid to be seen, virtual or not. The pixel analysis can extract 3D coordinates on many points, that you can display on a grid if you want, but at no time is the grid part of the measurement.

Stop being too smart to learn anything your way of thinking is not the only way relax be dumb for a moment.



Camera sees wall gets depth of wall , creates fake 3D grid of room matches real world room up with virtual room , you walk around real room & it's represented in the virtual world by matching the video cutout of you up with the fake grid placing you in the virtual world. you already know that it's a depth camera so you don't have to question how it's getting the depth & so on.
 

Alx

Member
But there's no need for a grid to match your silhouette in the game : because you have depth information, you already know the absolute position of the user. In a way it's already matched to a grid, that is the 3D referential of the camera. Displaying an object at a known position in a game doesn't require additional processing, it's just basic 3D rendering.
Maybe what you're suggesting is modelizing the room ingame, which can be done indeed, but there's no need for a grid, and it still has nothing to do with tracking quality.
 

Sobriquet

Member
Question I was reading the pdf file on the PS4eye and found that it will have its own slot and not USB this time around "CONNECTION TYPE PS4 DEDICATED CONNECTOR (AUX CONNECTOR) what is the benefit of this as opposed to going back to USB?

It could be like Kinect, in which using the dedicated connector eliminates the need for a power supply.
 

onQ123

Member
how would it do that without any reference? wouldn't a stereo camera only provide relative depth?

It actually sounds like you're describing how Kinect works (projects an IR grid)

Kinect sends out a real IR grid, what I'm talking about is a Virtual one that's lined up with your real room.
 

Alx

Member
I think we're not getting anywhere, so let's do it step by step.

Let's consider a gamer playing 1.5m away from the camera, just in front of it. The guy is 1.8m tall. There is a wall 2m to the left, another one 2m to the right, and a back wall 5m in the back.
The camera is the origin (coordinates (X,Y,Z) = (0,0,0)). (X is the Axis towards the player, Y is lateral, Z is the vertical axis)

Let's say we want to track the player's head and display it in the game (I single out one body part, but it can be generalized to all of them).

Because the camera does depth measurement, it knows that the head is at coordinates (1.5, 0, 1.8). It also "knows" that there are planes at Y = -2, Y = 2 and Z = 5 (it doesn't really need to know that they are planes actually, only that the given pixels are part of a background).

With that single data, the software can display a virtual representation of the head in an arbitrary referential. If the game has the same origin, it's only drawing a sphere in its own referential at (1.5, 0, 1.8). If it has another one, it's just a matter of translation and rotation to display it somewhere else.
It can also display the walls, or any other object it located, but all of them are unrelated.

If the user moves his head, for example strafing left and right, the camera will re-estimate its position and track it in its referential. The head position will be estimated to (1.5, *, 1.8) , and the position in the game will be updated accordingly.

At no moment the position of the head needs to be matched to the environment, nor would it make its tracking better. There is no need to consider any other data than the raw output of the depth measurement, that is absolute position in a XYZ referential.
 

onQ123

Member
I think we're not getting anywhere, so let's do it step by step.

Let's consider a gamer playing 1.5m away from the camera, just in front of it. The guy is 1.8m tall. There is a wall 2m to the left, another one 2m to the right, and a back wall 5m in the back.
The camera is the origin (coordinates (X,Y,Z) = (0,0,0)). (X is the Axis towards the player, Y is lateral, Z is the vertical axis)

Let's say we want to track the player's head and display it in the game (I single out one body part, but it can be generalized to all of them).

Because the camera does depth measurement, it knows that the head is at coordinates (1.5, 0, 1.8). It also "knows" that there are planes at Y = -2, Y = 2 and Z = 5 (it doesn't really need to know that they are planes actually, only that the given pixels are part of a background).

With that single data, the software can display a virtual representation of the head in an arbitrary referential. If the game has the same origin, it's only drawing a sphere in its own referential at (1.5, 0, 1.8). If it has another one, it's just a matter of translation and rotation to display it somewhere else.
It can also display the walls, or any other object it located, but all of them are unrelated.

If the user moves his head, for example strafing left and right, the camera will re-estimate its position and track it in its referential. The head position will be estimated to (1.5, *, 1.8) , and the position in the game will be updated accordingly.

At no moment the position of the head needs to be matched to the environment, nor would it make its tracking better. There is no need to consider any other data than the raw output of the depth measurement, that is absolute position in a XYZ referential.

Having the virtual grid means that it will be easier to place the real objects in the virtual world so a camera that's recording you from the front can show your 3D representation from all angles by just moving a virtual camera around the virtual grid.


You are inside of this grid filled with 1,024,000 pixels from each one of the 1280 x 800 cameras


vec3dPoint.png
 

Alx

Member
You're still not making any sense... please precise in the above scenario when you would use that grid, and how.
Because once you have the absolute position of the object ( in that case (1.5,0,1.8)), there is no difficulty displaying it in the game as a 3D object, nor rotating the camera around it. That's just the definition of 3D engines, where you place a virtual camera in a 3D world where you know the coordinates of all objects.
 

onQ123

Member
You're still not making any sense... please precise in the above scenario when you would use that grid, and how.
Because once you have the absolute position of the object ( in that case (1.5,0,1.8)), there is no difficulty displaying it in the game as a 3D object, nor rotating the camera around it. That's just the definition of 3D engines, where you place a virtual camera in a 3D world where you know the coordinates of all objects.

without the virtual 3D grid exactly how do you plan for the virtual world to know where the objects are in 3D?
 

Alx

Member
Since the camera software "knows" the objects position in 3D (see all the coordinates I mentioned), the game "knows" them as well.
User's head is at (1.5,0,1.8) ? Let's draw a sphere at (1.5,0,1.8) in game coordinates then. Or add 2000 to Z if he's standing on a mountain. Or remove 50 if it's a diving simulation.

Once you have the position of objects relative to the camera, you have all the info you need.
 

onQ123

Member
Since the camera software "knows" the objects position in 3D (see all the coordinates I mentioned), the game "knows" them as well.
User's head is at (1.5,0,1.8) ? Let's draw a sphere at (1.5,0,1.8) in game coordinates then. Or add 2000 to Z if he's standing on a mountain. Or remove 50 if it's a diving simulation.

Once you have the position of objects relative to the camera, you have all the info you need.

& how does the game know where (1.5,0,1.8) is? oh look it's the virtual grid (even if you can't see it it's there.)
 

Alx

Member
That's what I was saying, it depends on the game design. If the game wants to keep the same referential as the camera, then there is a 1:1 correspondance between camera coordinates and game coordinates. If the game wants to have a different origin, then it decides that the camera in the game referential is at a given position, and it only adds a translation and a rotation to the raw position.
Whatever the case, it doesn't need to do any further processing of the environment to decide where it should place the character. It's just a change of coordinates. And all you need is the camera and the player, you could be playing in a room with no wall and it would still work the same.
 

onQ123

Member
Yeah dude, not seeing what your fascination with the grid is either.

it make things simple by giving the software the answer to where each pixel is in 3D.

That's what I was saying, it depends on the game design. If the game wants to keep the same referential as the camera, then there is a 1:1 correspondance between camera coordinates and game coordinates. If the game wants to have a different origin, then it decides that the camera in the game referential is at a given position, and it only adds a translation and a rotation to the raw position.
Whatever the case, it doesn't need to do any further processing of the environment to decide where it should place the character. It's just a change of coordinates. And all you need is the camera and the player, you could be playing in a room with no wall and it would still work the same.

I never said that you had to have a wall behind you I was just trying to break down what I was talking about by using your room as the walls for the 3D Grid.
 

onQ123

Member
Sony Patent for using your TV as a Touchless Touch Screen.

Touch screen-like user interface that does not require actual touching


Touch screen-like user interface that does not require actual touching

Abstract

A system may be controlled by directing at least a portion of a field-of-view of one or more cameras across a screen of a display for the system, using the one or more cameras to track in three dimensions an object moving in a space in front of the screen, and providing input to the system based on the tracking of the object. A system may also be controlled by directing a first portion of a field-of-view of a camera in a first direction, directing a second portion of the field-of-view of the camera in a second direction across a screen of a display for the system, tracking an object moving in front of the screen with the second portion of the field-of-view of the camera, and providing input to the system based on the tracking of the object.


DETAILED DESCRIPTION

Touch screens have proven to be very good for casual user interactions with computers, but they have the disadvantage that the screen quickly gets fingerprinted and dirty, which is not something a user wants to happen to the living room big-screen TV.

Embodiments of the present invention allow a person to use his or her finger as a mouse-like pointing device to manipulate a touch screen-like user interface, but without actually touching the screen of the device. By way of example, such embodiments may be implemented in an inexpensive system that allows a big-screen TV to be used as an interface to a home server or the internet without the need for a remote control. This allows the TV to be easily used for casual walk-up interactions such as home control, brief web browsing sessions, checking traffic, weather, etc., where the use of voice control or a remote or hand-held pointing device would be inconvenient. Furthermore, the screen would not get dirty because the user does not have to touch it.
 

onQ123

Member
So I'm guessing that Kinect trailer scanning the skateboard will never be possible on the Kinect unless there is some sort of loophole.

Kinect has already used that skateboard scan thing in some mini game, it's just taking a picture with the background extracted Sony patent shouldn't stop that & I'm sure MS has a patent for their method of doing it.


PS Eye - Tank Battle

This is the patent to the PlayStation Eye Scanning I think they just updated now for the PlayStation 4 Eye.
 

Alx

Member
I'm still having a hard time understanding how those patents can be granted, when there was obvious anteriority at the time they were submitted. If anything it's a sign that owning/claiming a patent rarely means "I got the idea first !".
 

onQ123

Member
I'm still having a hard time understanding how those patents can be granted, when there was obvious anteriority at the time they were submitted. If anything it's a sign that owning/claiming a patent rarely means "I got the idea first !".

You patent your way of doing it.

& I don't really remember seeing anyone doing the object scanning into a video game before the PlayStation Eye demo even though I'm sure it was done before that on a larger scale but not giving the user to the power to just scan toys into the games.
 

Asimov

Banned
I have a lot of systems, and currently, my TV has a:

  • Wii Speak
  • Wii Sensor Bar
  • Wii U Sensor Bar
  • Kinect
  • PS Eye

In a few months it will have a PS4 Eye and I don't know which sensor is the 720 going to include.

My TV looks ridiculous.
 

grumble

Member
So if you're trying to say using software tricks to try and get 2 2D cameras to recognize 3D objects is going to be better than using an IR depth camera to actually get a proper 3D image, I might say that's crazy.

Isn't using two 2D cameras to get a proper 3D image what our eyes do?
 

iceatcs

Junior Member
I'm still having a hard time understanding how those patents can be granted, when there was obvious anteriority at the time they were submitted. If anything it's a sign that owning/claiming a patent rarely means "I got the idea first !".

I think the two or more patents allow done same thing but different methods.
 

Cidd

Member
check out this video

Introducing the // DUO


DUO it's like Leap Motion but it's made using 2 PlayStation Eye cameras & some other parts I'm not sure of everything that's in it but this should give people an idea of what PlayStation4Eye could do.



"Built for 2 PS3 Eyes in Stereo
Dimensions: 172x80x17mm
640x480/320x240 Resolution
RAW Bayer Sensor Data
Tracking Up to 187 FPS
USB 2.0 Interface "


this is the reason I was hoping that the PS4 controller would have had the 2 cameras in it like the Patent.


That was really impressive for 2 PSEyes, I don't see why they can't achieve that with the new one.
 

Alx

Member
Isn't using two 2D cameras to get a proper 3D image what our eyes do?

No, that's what our brain does, it has to extract depth information from images coming from both eyes.
For 3D movies, you're still letting your brain do the whole work. You only provide the point of view of each eye, and it will estimate the depth like it usually does. The movie 3D camera doesn't "know" the depth information and doesn't need to, it's literally two 2D cameras taped together.

But when you're not trying to only render depth, and also want to use that information in the software (like for gesture tracking or object reconstruction), you have to make your software does the brain task itself, and that may be difficult. In that case, depth cameras make it much easier.
 

Boss Man

Member
More like a Kinect buffer probably. It's there in case Kinect catches fire like the Wii did. Don't wanna be left out.
 

Tripolygon

Banned
More like a Kinect buffer probably. It's there in case Kinect catches fire like the Wii did. Don't wanna be left out.

Or it is there because every Sony console from PS2, PSP, PS3, PS Vita and now PS4 has come with a camera for tracking and Augmented reality gaming purpose.
 

joesiv

Member
I have a lot of systems, and currently, my TV has a:

  • Wii Speak
  • Wii Sensor Bar
  • Wii U Sensor Bar
  • Kinect
  • PS Eye

In a few months it will have a PS4 Eye and I don't know which sensor is the 720 going to include.

My TV looks ridiculous.
Lol, true...

However, you could probably get away with a single sensor bar, long as the console is powered on, the other console should pick it up just fine.
 
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