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Will Bioware ever depart from its "Player Ego-stroking" formula?

Lime

Member
So I just finished Dragon Age Inquisition and thought that Bioware once again used the same conventional design that they've used throughout most if not all their games. The player character is always the Chosen One that everybody worships and wants to have sex with and defeats the Evil Bad Guys with ease. Then the game ends with a big farewell party where all your party members are there to congratulate and cherish the player. It's almost as if Bioware has a core design principle that states that players should always have their ego stroked and should never face negative consequences to their actions. It is always possible to have your cake and eat it too in a Bioware game.

There's hardly any opposition to your player character, hardly anyone ever really questions you or disagrees with you, and there are never any repercussions to crossing other characters. There might be that "approval/disapproval" party system in DA:I, but they never amounted to something that actually mattered or had consequences (at least in my playthrough). I.e. it is always easy to win or have everybody like you.

I know, Bioware is basically just AAA popcorn RPG developer where you turn off your brain, and obviously there are other games that fulfill what I am talking about, but it would be interesting to have one of the premier and noteworthy RPG developers try to push the envelope a bit more than always providing the same safe and tired power fantasy experience that only aims to please the player. It would be cool to have some scenarios that challenge the player. The only real challenge I can recall in their contemporary output is deciding between
Kaiden or Ashley
in Mass Effect 1 (and that's hardly a complex decision) - otherwise everything else is just straight forward as far as I can recall.
 

Dio

Banned
E: I see what a lot of you are saying about 'oh he sacrificed himself to save everyone like Jesus', but the ME3 ending didn't come across to me that way. It felt kind of like you did it all for nothing in the end, and not too many people really cared all that much - it seemed to me like the galaxy moved on pretty quickly afterwards.
 

Lime

Member
The ending of Mass Effect 3 says they don't always stroke the player's ego.

Eh, it was still saving the entire universe by defeating the evil bad guys with red/green/blue space magic without losing much besides
Anderson and Space Jesus herself
. Plus the journey to that ending was still a series of ego-stroking missions.
 

FranXico

Member
The ending of Mass Effect 3 says they don't always stroke the player's ego.

Quite the contrary, that ending is framed as the Sacrifice of the Messiah. If that is not intended to make the player feel important, I don't know what is.
 

Dio

Banned
How is deciding the fate of the galaxy not ego stroking, even if its all horribly written?

I agree that the ending was trash, but I at least commend them for not making everything perfect and everyone jerking off Mass Effect Protagonist for saving the galaxy and everything is fine forever and you get to marry your waifu et cetera.

They tried to make a poignant and unexpected ending and fucked it up, but they at least tried.

Quite the contrary, that ending is framed as the Sacrifice of the Messiah. If that is not intended to make the player feel important, I don't know what is.

They may have intended it as such but I felt like it was tackled in a way that made Shepard feel even less important than before. I may just be inserting my own interpretation but it seemed to me almost like no one really cared all that much that Shepard did that, they just moved on and were like 'welp, that guy was cool I guess.'
 
If there hasn't already been one, there needs to be a 'Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead' style adventure game where you're just some random dude witnessing a far grander story from the sidelines, and the game focuses more on how these larger events impact your day to day life.

There could still be an epic adventure there, but in the grand scheme of things you'd still be an average joe instead of the second-coming of Christ like most RPG's like to frame your protagonist.
 

Whompa02

Member
The ending of Mass Effect 3 says they don't always stroke the player's ego.

Except it was actually 150% ego stroking because it placed the mantle of responsibility on you. You Shepard the future of the universe in the most dramatic way possible (to your own ego): self sacrifice.

But it's a nice attempt to throw in another comment about the ending to me3.
 

Rektash

Member
Bioware RPGs are like fifty shades of grey novels for men. Shallow, badly written, at times downright embarrassing but ultimately pulls the right power fantasy/ego stroking strings for people to fall for them.
 

Corpekata

Banned
Mass Effect 3 was one of the only recent RPGs where I actually lost a party member due to my choices so I wouldn't say they're all bad .
 

tokkun

Member
If there hasn't already been one, there needs to be a 'Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead' style adventure game where you're just some random dude witnessing a far grander story from the sidelines, and the game focuses more on how these larger events impact your day to day life.

There could still be an epic adventure there, but in the grand scheme of things you'd still be an average joe instead of the second-coming of Christ like most RPG's like to frame your protagonist.

That was sort of the deal with Vaan in FFXII and a lot of people complained about it.
 

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
To be fair, it's not just Bioware. It's 98% of all games created.
The 2% are Spec Ops the Line, Planescape Torment and ________ if you were curious.

I mean look at Fallout 4. You leave the vault and instantly become general of some organisation. You complete one sidequests for the Brotherhood of Steel and they instantly are super impressed with you and want to hire you. You are the number #1 talk in town. And the town is the entire map
 

Mivey

Member
This. I don't want to play an RPG where noone cares who I am or what I do. I get enough of that in real life.

:(
That shouldn't mean that you get to decide everything in the world. What you should, on the other hand, control is your reaction to things that are often clearly outside your control. Think about huge geopolitical events, that you don't get to control, only how you deal with the repercussions (for example, do you only look for profit, or do you try to limit negative effects, with negative effects for you directly)

That's what role play means to me at least. BioWare stuff is more like its own fan fiction.
 

Phamit

Member
Except it was actually 150% ego stroking because it placed the mantle of responsibility on you. You Shepard the future of the universe in the most dramatic way possible (to your own ego): self sacrifice.

But it's a nice attempt to throw in another comment about the ending to me3.

There was a lot of criticism that there was no true happy ending option, a lot of people wanted to save everyone including the protagonist
 

danm999

Member
Bioware (and many other RPG developers) seem incapable of writing a game anymore where the stakes aren't the complete annihilation of the world/galaxy/universe; so the power fantasy/chosen one narrative is probably going nowhere in the short term.

The games that try and build on characters and smaller, personal stories are few and far between but for me they hit hard. I gave way more of a shit about the story and stakes in Shadowrun Dragonfall than I did in Dragon Age Inquisition; even though the former was a local, personal incident and the latter was a global catastrophe.
 

Dr. Buni

Member
While I had no issue with Vaan, most complaints didn't stem from his position in the story, rather the way he looked or acted.
Precisely. I still remember people calling him all kind of names because of his design. Kind of a shame, because while he isn't the best protagonist in Final Fantasy, he is far from being the worst (both in personality and design). And being a supporting protagonist instead of the central character of the story was really neat.
 
So I just finished Dragon Age Inquisition and thought that Bioware once again used the same conventional design that they've used throughout most if not all their games. The player character is always the Chosen One that everybody worships and wants to have sex with and defeats the Evil Bad Guys with ease. Then the game ends with a big farewell party where all your party members are there to congratulate and cherish the player. It's almost as if Bioware has a core design principle that states that players should always have their ego stroked and should never face negative consequences to their actions. It is always possible to have your cake and eat it too in a Bioware game.

There's hardly any opposition to your player character, hardly anyone ever really questions you or disagrees with you, and there are never any repercussions to crossing other characters. There might be that "approval/disapproval" party system in DA:I, but they never amounted to something that actually mattered or had consequences (at least in my playthrough). I.e. it is always easy to win or have everybody like you.

I know, Bioware is basically just AAA popcorn RPG developer where you turn off your brain, and obviously there are other games that fulfill what I am talking about, but it would be interesting to have one of the premier and noteworthy RPG developers try to push the envelope a bit more than always providing the same safe and tired power fantasy experience that only aims to please the player. It would be cool to have some scenarios that challenge the player. The only real challenge I can recall in their contemporary output is deciding between
Kaiden or Ashley
in Mass Effect 1 (and that's hardly a complex decision) - otherwise everything else is just straight forward as far as I can recall.

Isn't most games running with a "hero story" on some level a ego-stroking plot?


I might be remembering it wrong, but wasn't there a lot of characters in Inquisition who questions the Inquisitor? Everyone from Orlais hate you, half your party is fucking dissatisfied with your choices half the time. Cassandra won't ever shut the fuck up. "are you really up for this Inquisitor?", Solus with his goddamn inane philosophies, and don't get me started on the Tevinter mage. Jesus fucking christ.





Regarding Mass Effect 3- I'm pretty sure I got the ending that doomed humanity and let the reapers run free. That didn't feel like ego-stroking as much as it made me sad.:'(
 

Dio

Banned
To be fair, that implementation seemed like it was shoehorned in.

I would like to see something with real commitment to the approach.

It 'seemed to' because it was, IIRC. Vaan wasn't the protagonist at first, supposedly Matsuno wanted Basch to be the main protag.
 

2San

Member
Bioware (and many other RPG developers) seem incapable of writing a game anymore where the stakes aren't the complete annihilation of the world/galaxy/universe; so the power fantasy/chosen one narrative is probably going nowhere in the short term.

The games that try and build on characters and smaller, personal stories are few and far between but for me they hit hard. I gave way more of a shit about the story and stakes in Shadowrun Dragonfall than I did in Dragon Age Inquisition; even though the former was a local, personal incident and the latter was a global catastrophe.
I think DA2 was a decent shot considering how that game was rushed out.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
There was a lot of criticism that there was no true happy ending option, a lot of people wanted to save everyone including the protagonist

Sure but many people were just hurt by the thematic departure and rushed nature of the ending. Plus I dont think they earned the right to do the grey ending when most of the rest of the series was you solving nearly every problem in a neat bow. You probably should have had more Kaiden/Ashley moments where you have no good options or where your choices end up self destructing on you, so that the player knows there probably is no way to have a perfect ending. You create expectations.
 
To be fair, it's not just Bioware. It's 98% of all games created.
The 2% are Spec Ops the Line, Planescape Torment and ________ if you were curious.

I mean look at Fallout 4. You leave the vault and instantly become general of some organisation. You complete one sidequests for the Brotherhood of Steel and they instantly are super impressed with you and want to hire you. You are the number #1 talk in town. And the town is the entire map

"The Commonwealth needs you."

*only been in the Commonwealth for 20 minutes*
 
If there hasn't already been one, there needs to be a 'Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead' style adventure game where you're just some random dude witnessing a far grander story from the sidelines, and the game focuses more on how these larger events impact your day to day life.

There could still be an epic adventure there, but in the grand scheme of things you'd still be an average joe instead of the second-coming of Christ like most RPG's like to frame your protagonist.

I think to make that work, you'd need to do some serious thinking about how to handle character progression. It wouldn't make much sense if by the end, you're a level 99 badass but still "nobody" in the grand scheme of things.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
I think to make that work, you'd need to do some serious thinking about how to handle character progression. It wouldn't make much sense if by the end, you're a level 99 badass but still "nobody" in the grand scheme of things.

Well what if everyone important was a level 150 badass?
 

danm999

Member
I think DA2 was a decent shot considering how that game was rushed that.

For me not really. DA2 was so insecure in thinking you'd care about Hawke's story it basically had to scream at you during all the Cassandra and Varic interrogation framing scenes that Hawke did something huge that affected Thedas forever. It just couldn't leave well enough alone.
 
It sells them a lot of copies so likely...no?

And this is a good question.....does it?

If i remember rightly Dragon age inquisition, didn't even chart in NPD's and debuted at 5(PS4) and 14(XBO) in the UK charts before quickly tumbling down the charts the following week- Ps4 33, XBO out of the top 40.

I think Mass Effect will be fine, but i think they have to switch up Dragon Ages template.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
And this is a good question.....does it?

If i remember rightly Dragon age inquisition, didn't even chart in NPD's and debuted at 5(PS4) and 14(XBO) before quickly tumbling down the charts - Ps4 33, XBO out of the top 40.

I think Mass Effect will be fine, but i think they have to switch up Dragon Ages template.

I'm pretty sure DAI had Bioware's best launch ever...
 
And this is a good question.....does it?

If i remember rightly Dragon age inquisition, didn't even chart in NPD's and debuted at 5(PS4) and 14(XBO) in the UK charts before quickly tumbling down the charts the following week- Ps4 33, XBO out of the top 40.

I think Mass Effect will be fine, but i think they have to switch up Dragon Ages template.
Do you think that was because of their story template?
 
Well for a start if we're looking at DA2 then that's like the opposite of a hero's fantasy.

And quite frankly i would argue that if you play DAI a certain way then it is most definitely no a standard hero fantasy. Because your character can feel fundamentally uncomfortable by being displayed as such. Especially if you are an elf, as the inquisition has some awkward implications in regards to religious figureheads, and the inquisition could be seen a more of a prison if you don't embrace it.

Plus Trespasser completely tears down any sort of hero worship. Seriously, trespasser completely destroys any argument of ego stroking. You start the game as a random individual of the street, and in a way that's how you can end the game
 
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