I really agree. You can create much more interesting character interaction when you're not the center of the universe. There will also be a more interesting context for the story, instead of just "you're special."
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Will Bioware ever depart from its "Player Ego-stroking" formula?
- Thread starter Lime
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I really agree. You can create much more interesting character interaction when you're not the center of the universe. There will also be a more interesting context for the story, instead of just "you're special."
Vincent Grayson
Member
I mean in comparison to the "normal" people.
To use a tabletop comparison, most non-adventuring types in D&D are considering level 0, or level 1 at most. Even if you were a nobody, if you survive and progress long enough to hit say, level 10, much less level 20, it's a given that you're important and have made a name for yourself, because you so wildly outclass most other people alive.
An RPG about being a relatively unknown person in the shadow of epic events happening around them would be cool as hell, but I do think you'd need to find a way to make progress not just a simple "now you're stronger"-type system, and maybe something where you're simply expanding your repertoire of abilities and options.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Look at The Witcher. Geralt is a well known character in the world, even knows most of the kings and some of the most important people around, but he is still pretty much a nobody for 99% of the world because in the end he is just a dude who kills monsters.
Edit: Not saying Witcher 3 is the perfect example for this, but it shows a way how this could be done.
I don't feel like this was fair or even correct assessment of Inquisition at all. But if you're looking for a more direct answer then you already know it's DA2.
EDIT: I could argue Jade Empire as well but I'd probably meet a lot of resistance there.
EDIT 2: I gotta go, but I'm subbing to this.
EDIT: I could argue Jade Empire as well but I'd probably meet a lot of resistance there.
EDIT 2: I gotta go, but I'm subbing to this.
Brad Grenz
Member
You can write a good hero's journey that doesn't come across like Mary Sue fanfic.
There's also the fact that Hawke is still regarded as 'Super-awesome fighter-for-hire dude!'. Carver's story arc is in large part his inferiority complex to being overshadowed by his awesome sibling.
All video games stroke the players ego in some way, but Bioware's games take it to a whole new level I feel. In Mass Effect you have NPC's constantly sucking Shepard's dick and telling him how amazing and awesome he is, and how no one else, not a single person in this galaxy full of trillions of individuals, could do the things that he does, not a single one, it's absolutely ridiculous.
It honestly takes me out of the game because it comes across as so condescending, as if NPC's are mocking the player in some way.
It honestly takes me out of the game because it comes across as so condescending, as if NPC's are mocking the player in some way.
Stilton Disco
Member
Eh, as much as I like to sometimes play an RPG where the characters are only important in their own contained stories, Bioware does epic yet personally satisfying tales like no one else, and breaking from that formulae is asking for trouble.
Not least of all because it means what choices you do have are just frustratingly meaningless and lead to unsatisfying outcomes otherwise.
I mean DA2 was a huge disappointment for most because nothing you did ended up mattering (although I loved the game for it's depiction of a bunch of chancers hanging out with their mates and getting way out of their depth), and ME3's ending was a fucking disaster by going from epic wish fulfilment and player agency to suddenly at the last minute changing the plot to no longer being about Shepard and crew, and instead a choice between 3 equally shit options favoured by Space Hitler.
Not least of all because it means what choices you do have are just frustratingly meaningless and lead to unsatisfying outcomes otherwise.
I mean DA2 was a huge disappointment for most because nothing you did ended up mattering (although I loved the game for it's depiction of a bunch of chancers hanging out with their mates and getting way out of their depth), and ME3's ending was a fucking disaster by going from epic wish fulfilment and player agency to suddenly at the last minute changing the plot to no longer being about Shepard and crew, and instead a choice between 3 equally shit options favoured by Space Hitler.
Dragon Age pretty much has to be "ego stroking". The gameplay is based on killing thousands of bad guys including dragons and demons and so forth, if the world is going to make sense people are going to go "whoah" and treat the player as something special.
Also, people want to feel their choices matter, which is at least easier to pull off if the player character has some pull, particularly in the epic scale plots that are required by the DA gameplay formula.
There are a few tweaks they could make - they could have it take longer for the PC to get their reputation, they could give the player a villainous reputation rather than a heroic one - but fundamentally I don't think its escapable.
They could change things around for their new IP, though.
Also, people want to feel their choices matter, which is at least easier to pull off if the player character has some pull, particularly in the epic scale plots that are required by the DA gameplay formula.
There are a few tweaks they could make - they could have it take longer for the PC to get their reputation, they could give the player a villainous reputation rather than a heroic one - but fundamentally I don't think its escapable.
They could change things around for their new IP, though.
afternoon delight
Member
And by a lot Techno means a lot. And all their fans buy them up quickly, yum yum.
Actually, due to the protagonists being set characters in most JRPGs, I usually find they don't have the problem as much. They're also more likely to have unwinnable boss fights and characters that are clearly stronger than them in the world while most WRPGs seem to just consider you the strongest from either the start or close.
JonnyDBrit
Member
I would say... potentially, but at this stage you'd probably see it more likely occur in say, a spinoff or some side project the staff have worked on, rather than a main title.
I mean, I don't agree entirely with the assessment that Bioware never questions the player, or has them face negative consequences; or that at least, that they've never done so in the past (which I realise may not be what OP is saying, and I've yet to play Inquisition, so yeah). Typically in the past though their approach on such matters is that of negligence - ie, yours as the player. If you don't put in the effort to talk to your party, to find the appropriate allies, or to have the right gear, then there's at least the chance that someone'll die, if not worse. It is possible to have your cake and eat it, but not a guarantee; one of their favourite tactics being if you waited too long to eat the damn cake.
Mind you, how well they convey to the player that they've screwed up is another matter entirely, and I will admit, many times characters can come across as a bit... too understanding of your perspective. Typically with some version of the line about having to make a choice and so they understand that it was a 'hard decision' you 'had' to make.
I think part of it is affected by fan reception, since Bioware for a long time, and to some extent still, relied on a core fanbase that had become fans of the developers themselves, more than the franchises it handled. And often, whilst many here and elsewhere will talk about how great it is story wise to have to face the (negative) consequences for your actions, and not have everything go your way, I would say many more disagree quite vehemently. Many people hated DA2's ending for putting you in a scenario where there was no good ending that didn't end in an all out war, and they hated the original ME3 ending where, to varying degrees, you stopped the Reapers but appeared to utterly fuck over the galaxy in the process. And they got praise from people when they responded on the latter and provided some much awaited cake.
And I admit, I liked that cake, so I'm part of the problem.
I mean, I don't agree entirely with the assessment that Bioware never questions the player, or has them face negative consequences; or that at least, that they've never done so in the past (which I realise may not be what OP is saying, and I've yet to play Inquisition, so yeah). Typically in the past though their approach on such matters is that of negligence - ie, yours as the player. If you don't put in the effort to talk to your party, to find the appropriate allies, or to have the right gear, then there's at least the chance that someone'll die, if not worse. It is possible to have your cake and eat it, but not a guarantee; one of their favourite tactics being if you waited too long to eat the damn cake.
Mind you, how well they convey to the player that they've screwed up is another matter entirely, and I will admit, many times characters can come across as a bit... too understanding of your perspective. Typically with some version of the line about having to make a choice and so they understand that it was a 'hard decision' you 'had' to make.
I think part of it is affected by fan reception, since Bioware for a long time, and to some extent still, relied on a core fanbase that had become fans of the developers themselves, more than the franchises it handled. And often, whilst many here and elsewhere will talk about how great it is story wise to have to face the (negative) consequences for your actions, and not have everything go your way, I would say many more disagree quite vehemently. Many people hated DA2's ending for putting you in a scenario where there was no good ending that didn't end in an all out war, and they hated the original ME3 ending where, to varying degrees, you stopped the Reapers but appeared to utterly fuck over the galaxy in the process. And they got praise from people when they responded on the latter and provided some much awaited cake.
And I admit, I liked that cake, so I'm part of the problem.
Diablohead
Member
I hope that the new mass effect has more options that play out different, being the bad guy in mass effect most of the time just has shepard say something nasty but the game continues anyway.
I want to see more things change and vary from choices made, ME1 nearly went there but in the end it was not enough.
I want to see more things change and vary from choices made, ME1 nearly went there but in the end it was not enough.
Shuggananas
Banned
Why would they ?
Not happening.
People excited for the next mass effect after what happened with 3 lmao
Not happening.
People excited for the next mass effect after what happened with 3 lmao
Angelus Errare
Banned
You can be important without being Jesus.
It is completely possible to make players feel important in RPGs without making their character feel like Space Jesus or Chosen One
Its not that hard
There seems to be this underlying notion in nearly all of video game writing that "if we can't make the player the center of the universe, how are we supposed to tell a compeling story?". It really screwed over the unique story potential of MMORPGs as they grew and changed over the years.
It reeks of narrow-minded defeatism and creative bankrupcy.
Furthermore, the ego-stroking wouldn't be quite as bad as it is if the games actually made you feel like you earn it, which most of the time they fail at doing. Stuff like your ally NPC telling you he hurt his pinky finger so you have to man the turret at the end of the level to mow down the hundreds of mindless enemies running into your line of fire, followed by everyone telling you how amazing you are.
I've felt that Bethesda was worse than Bioware there to be honest. It seems like with every game from at least Oblivion onwards they're fawning all over you once you have a few quests under your belt. Oblivion at least made it so
you were not THE chosen one
At least most people seem to either be apathetic to you running around in Bioware games or just state your name/title as a greeting.
Jibbajabbawockky
Member
While The Witcher isn't quite as low key as that, the main thrust of the Witcher series is that while Geralt has a bunch of friends and connections to people in high places, him being a Witcher makes him almost always seen as an outsider. He's never the Chosen One and the thing that I like in The Witcher 3 is that basically it's a story about Ciri being the "Chosen One" and Geralt is around to help her out in her journey. I thought that was cool.
Yeah, I never understand people that try to latch on to the idea that DA2 was some huge break in BioWare storytelling by saying Hawke's story was some low stakes thing compared to typical BioWare fare when it wasn't at all. Sure, you're not saving the world but like you said, the framing device plants Hawke as being this big time global catalyst from the start and the story is constantly pushing Hawke forward as this ever more influential force in Kirkwall.
Dictator93
Member
Funny, I enjoy the opposite feeling in RPGs: where you see a complex world folding out before you in ways your PC only can comprehend in a sideways, oroverarching manner. Or perhaps only plain after the fact if at all.
I like the backwater areas of open worlds, not the capitals.
The absolute worst was all the guards in Skyrim going "Psst! I know who you really are... Hail Sithis!" if you joined the Dark Brotherhood. This kind of random NPC acknowledgement is one of the most contrived things about their games.
The Strokes
Banned
I don't think this is a problem exclusive to Bioware. Most RPGs are adventure stories and whether the scope is defined by saving/influencing the town, the world, the universe is not that significant of a difference. I think also games involving narrative choices in an effort make those choices seem consequential, results in those choices altering the story/world in a significant way. That alone makes your character 'powerful' regardless of whether you're the chosen one or not, or if you're showered with compliments or not (though this does result in a very narrow set of relationships with other characters). Obsidian games have this too but they handle this really well in that they ask the players to reflect upon their choices, their intended intentions (values) and actual results. I think Bioware has demonstrated an ability to do this as well.
If DA:I is any indication it will only deepen, they had npc's literally forming a religion around you, at least Mass effect had 2 games of build up before everyone decides your character is jesus. They didn't bother with any pretense at all in Inquisition, before the prologue ends you have npc's lined up bowing to you. That's my worry for Andromeda since they are starting with a new character, its unlikely they'll reach the legitimately good writing of the first Mass Effect so they'll opt for a character that is ordained to be the savoir of the galaxy within the first 15 minutes of the game instantly removing any grey, pigeon holing the plot and making any party members inconsequential beyond reminding the player of their importance, offering sex or needing the player to run errands for them.
waveuponwave
Member
What really bugs me is the protagonist having power he really shouldn't have. The councilor choice at the end of Mass Effect 1 always bothered me. Shepard is a hero, sure, give us some ego stroking if you want, but letting a glorified soldier choose one of the most powerful political figures in the galaxy because of... what exactly?... just dumb
JonnyDBrit
Member
See, that's what I mean on Bioware's use of 'negligence' on such things. Because there is a way to resolve that, but it requires more additional work and preparation than is typically expected out of these scenarios, including needing certain choices from Mass Effect 2's save file.
It really doesn't. Hawke is only famous because of Varric's story and the "far reaching impact" was actually an action that Anders took that Cassandra thought you were responsible for.
He's a Spectre, it's not like he's some average soldier.
TouchMyBox
Member
Yeah, but you're so awesome that you don't really need them anyway to save the universe. Everybody else is just window dressing to how awesome you are.
What did you read footnotes or something? That's not the case at all.
Blame Mass Effect 3 for being garbage.
waveuponwave
Member
True, and that approach sucks. If your goal as a player isn't to get a perfect roses-and-glitter happy ending, but experience an interesting or challenging story, it essentially punishes you for being thorough in your playthrough.
The suicide mission really disappointed me... this everyone-can-die thing was hyped so much during Mass Effect 2 that saving everyone felt far too easy
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
Sounds like this guy I've heard of, who was that again...oh yeah, i believe it was JESUS CHRIST?
shinobi602
Member
Lol, I find this shit so insulting. The same is also said about a lot of films too. "It's just a dumb hero movie", "turn off your brain" etc. It's basically saying this game or movie is for dummies. Alright, thanks I guess.
How is it not? you are the herald of Andraste, chosen by the maker, literally jesus. The town forms a damn vigil for you right at the start. Sure it over simplifies it a bit but thats the gist.
At least provide counter points as to why you don't think that's the case.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Yeah, its kind of the (probably) unintentional result by trying to make 'success' in the story somewhat proportional to the effort. Like, at one level I understand and have appreciated this. I really liked the idea that if I actually wanted to, I could improve the Mass Effect galaxy, partly by taking extra care in missions instead of going the easiest route, for ethical reasons. But that's kind of at odds with player mindsets on completion, and I could see what you mean by how saving everyone could feel easy. If you're planet scanning crazy you pick up most (if not all) of the materials you need for the upgrades, so the moment they appear a lot of players would spend on them without realising how they upped the odds of everyone surviving. Thus the challenge appears to have never presented itself, rather than unwittingly being overcome, neither of which was probably would have wanted if they'd known.
But then, that encourages flatout telegraphing everything to the player. in which case, they wouldn't really face the consequences, they'd calculate for them.
EmCeeGramr
Member
I mean... that shows exactly how they let you eat cake and have it too.
First Shepard dies for five minutes in the beginning of 2 and there's no repercussions at all (IIRC there was even cut dialogue from the game where someone asked Shepard about the spiritual ramifications of dying, and in 3 the question of whether you're the same person finally comes up very near the end, only to be neatly resolved as "yes" minutes later).
You're in the world's comfiest "prison" in the beginning of 3, then immediately everyone respects you, you're effectively exonerated, and you're vindicated in everything you've ever said before gameplay even starts.
In 3, you
die at the end
there was that high points destrot ending where you fucking survive somehow anyway, and in all three endings you're a revered martyr who that kid and old man at the end talk about The Shepard like thousands of yeara from now you're remembered as a legendary hero or god.
piratethingy
Self professed bad raider
I think there's room for both. If Bioware wants to make power fantasy escapism RPGs and their fans want to buy them, what's the problem?
Angelus Errare
Banned
Even how you become a spectre is hilarious. You the player never earn the title, hell the reason you come one is really dumb depending on what you pick
"She/he was the lone survivor of x"
Sounds good
Spectre status approved!
DAI is all about faith, some Andrastians believe God sent you to them to close the rifts because you have to power to do so with no explanation at the time as to how you can.
That's not "literally forming a religion around the player" the religion is already there and it's just one view of the practitioners trying to make sense of this. You're no messiah either, that would blasphemous.
I think it's pretty unfair to try and paint the plot as "You're the Chosen One and the world is sucking your dick" when you know damn well that's not the case and the game does more with than that.
You're on point with everything else there but according to the devs this spoilered bit is Shepard taking his/her last breath. Not surviving.
Well that got you on the shortlist but there was Eden Prime and finding out Saren went rouge.