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Legality & Questions of having TWO Full Time Jobs

I'm a Director of Software Development at an amazing company with phenomenal pay (125k/yr). Been doing it for two years; constantly over delivering. I work from home. Since I've mastered the job I've become bored and have a ton of free time during the day.

My previous employer is STILL trying to fulfill my role after two years and has reached out to me.

So that brings me to this:
Can I legally have two FTE jobs that are the same hours of 8 to 5?
Do both employers need to know that I do?
Should I inform both?
As long as I go above and beyond on both roles, what issues could arise?
 

Montresor

Member
If you inform your current employer then your responsibilities will likely be fucked.

Wouldn't they say "Hey wait a minute - you can do your 40-hour-a-week job with only 20 hours per week? Something's not right here."

They may pile on extra responsibilities onto you...
 
Moonlighting is generally frowned upon in most professional environments. I would consult HR at your current job, at the very least.
 
If you are in that position, and feel you could fit in another full time job within the normal working hours, you probably aren't doing your job. That, or your position is completely unnecessary.

Technically, you would need to disclose the other position to each company. Odds are, both companies would balk, and your current employer would start looking into why you have so much free time.
 

Valtýr

Member
I think the legality comes into play when you're claiming to work two place at the same time in the same block of hours. If you worked nights for one job and days for another that's probably fine. However if you're just saying you're working nights for one job but actually doing it during the day that might also be a problem.
 

sikkinixx

Member
If you're that bored find a hobby or fix up your house or learn a language etc

Don't risk a high paying job because you're bored.
 

Zoe

Member
How do you plan to do work for company #2 during the same hours as company #1 without using any of company #1's resources?
 

Dryk

Member
I'm a Director of Software Development at an amazing company with phenomenal pay (125k/yr).
Is this you OP?
i092_th_dog_reflection.jpg
 

Quonny

Member
Challenge yourself in some other way. If you have free time during your work hours, do something to better yourself that isn't a job.

I work from home, but have 4-5 minutes of free time every half hour where I just have to pay minimal attention. During that time I learn a foreign language, work on my Photoshop skills, or so on.
 
Flying too close to the sun, dude.

If you're paid that well and have a lot of free time, get a hobby.
It's a video game forum. Play videogames and get paid for it.
 
I'm a Director of Software Development at an amazing company with phenomenal pay (125k/yr). Been doing it for two years; constantly over delivering. I work from home. Since I've mastered the job I've become bored and have a ton of free time during the day.

This is my dream.
 
How do you plan to do work for company #2 during the same hours as company #1 without using any of company #1's resources?

This is the catch you're likely missing, OP. Even though you don't work the full 40 hours, you're still being paid for it and doing another job would mean you're doing work for someone else on their dollar.

There also might be a conflict of interest depending on the industry and your contract. This is something HR can usually clear up for you pretty quickly.

This is my dream.

Find a job at a University or College. I've never been somewhere where everyone is so busy yet never seems to have anything to do.
 

Bsigg12

Member
Sounds like an easy way to get fired. You're getting paid for time you're supposed to be doing something with Job A while actually working and getting paid for Job B.
 
You should be working at 5 x as many hours as someone earning 25k!

And you can get in a lot of trouble for doing what you are suggesting.
 

tirminyl

Member
Uh, no. Your company is paying you for 8hrs of work, 8-5. You cannot decide to pull in another employer to work that same 8-5.

If you're that bored, then your position may be unwarranted, or you may not be doing your job.

DON'T DO IT unless you want to be fired, or forced to no longer be able to work from home. If I am paying you to work 8-5 and you come to me saying you want to ALSO work for your previous employer M-F 8-5 as well, I would hand you a resignation later.
 

Skel1ingt0n

I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
I agree with everyone else: just do something else with all your free time.
 

gaiages

Banned
OP, with as much money as you're making, do you really need a second income? And a fulltime one at that? Not to pry into your situation, but is a second job really what you need to alleviate your boredom?

If you have a bunch of free time, why not do some volunteer (like for a non profit or something) stuff related to your career? You do something nice to help out, build a portfolio and you're less likely to get shit from your employer.

Or maybe just work on self-improvement? Pick up a productive hobby, work out at home, or something?

Usually if you take on a second job you have to let your employer know. If that second job is during the same hours as your current job (and considering your comments it seems like it would be), they're not going to approve of that at all, and if you're caught moonlighting you'll likely get fired.
 

Zoe

Member
Freelance consulting. "After hours"

That's really the only way, assuming there's no conflict of interest.

I did have a director once who would use vacation time to try out working for another company, but that's risky in itself.
 

leakey

Member
Is this you OP?
i092_th_dog_reflection.jpg

Oh man, I remember that story.

Yeah dude, if you're pulling over six figures just relax. Another full time job would be disastrous. At least do some freelance coding work online or something where it's not blatantly obvious to upper management that you don't have enough to do at your current position.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
Most companies have policies that you have to notify them of outside work. It's rarely enforced because most of the time you're just dealing with small-time gigs or weekend jobs, but if they found out you're working on other stuff same hours as your actual job, they will absolutely pull that clause to fire you.

I agree with the notion you should just find some hobby to fill up the dead hours. Find some topic of study you can dedicate yourself to, or some kind of art or craft. Hell, sneak some ebooks or games onto your work computer or something, if you have to, that'll probably get you in less trouble than working a second job.
 

cwmartin

Member
My wife fired someone for taking every Friday/Monday off (unlimited PTO policy) to have a 4 day weekend, they worked every one of those 4 days at Apple retail. This is highly frowned upon in any professional environment or company.

A better question is why on earth would you want to do two jobs in the same time? I don't even want to do one.
 

JeTmAn81

Member
For one thing, if you have so much free time during your day job you should tell your employer about it and ask for more duties. That being said, I'll leave this post from a Quora thread about daylighting here:

Let me answer this as I am a software engineer who is a notorious daylighter. Daylighting was coined by CNN in a 2009 article entitled Sneaky 'daylighters' risk firing by working extra jobs. It was about people who work on a side job at their full time job.

Now, why should you listen to me? Well, if daylighting were a group, I would be their President. 1/4 of my last book was devoted to it. The only difference is, I’m not blatant about it like your employee is. I work in stealth mode at my day job. I’ve been daylighting for 10 years now, and while I don’t know your employee, I know why he’s daylighting. Put your seat belt on, because it’s going to get fun.

First, ask yourself why your employee is daylighting? I already know the answer, but I want you to understand. Let’s pretend I worked for you as a software engineer. I know that as a full-time employee (FTE):

I signed a contract with you stating I will be given annual performance reviews with the potential for raise and bonus based on superior work and output if goals are met. I also signed that same contract with the understanding you would honor skill sets above and beyond “the standard salary” for a particular skill level.

Now, what made me turn to daylighting? Why did I suddenly turn to the dark side? It was a transition, not an overnight thing. Here is how it went down:

For the first 10 years in my career at any new job, I worked hard for 1 year. I finished more projects than my peers. I’d take on extra work. I’d automate and simplify many of the processes so the business ran like silk. Peer reviews backed up my performance. After 1 year, it was time for the annual review as promised in the signed contract.

Ah, but here comes the interesting part. Listen up, because this concerns you the business owner or middle manager. At the end of one year, my raise and bonus were at cost of living levels. Or, the annual review was “pushed back” citing company delays.

When asked why the review was not stellar since I beat out most if not all of my peers on speed and output, no answer was given. Sometimes, it was corporate politics. Sometimes, it was because management was lazy and didn’t want to pay. Sometimes, it was due to “we want you to socialize more” and “play the game”.

I discovered other programmers who pumped out quality output at staggering rates went through the same thing as I did at review time.

So, middle managers and business owners, pay attention. At that point, you BROKE the employment agreement. I exceeded above and beyond my standard job output. And at the end of the one year, you simply paid the same you would for an average output software engineer. You were getting 50% or more increased output over another guy with the same or relatively same salary.

Let’s put this into perspective: Consider 2 software engineers. One of them gets 4 high difficulty programming tasks done in an 8 hour shift on average. The other gets 6 high difficulty tasks done in an 8 hour shift on average. At the end of the year, you should be paying the second guy more money than the first in raise and bonus. The other guy is pumping out 50% more work in the same timeframe.

If you don’t pay them more, then you as the business owner or middle manager have broken the employment contract. (Remember the part about performance and raise and bonus?) Many middle managers and business owners get amnesia when raise and bonus time comes. Funny how that works, isn’t it?

Let’s take that same example, but we will use 4 high difficulty tasks as the average expectation of a programmer paid $x per year to complete in a day. Programmer A pumps them out in 8 hours. Programmer B does it in 4 hours. If Programmer B knows that the lazy middle managers or business owners won’t be paying him any more money to increase output, what is Programmer B’s motivation to take on extra work? He knows the employment contract has been broken. He also knows the hundreds of imaginary hoops management will present so as not to pay him more money.

So what does he do next? If he’s smart, he daylights. Ruthlessly. Because if the employer doesn’t care about the employment contract, why should the programmer? You see where I’m going with this? I’m going to use those extra 4 hours in the day to earn more money for myself.

Now let me pause here for a moment, because I know the business owners and lazy middle managers are out there reading this. And they are saying, “Well you should take on more work to show you are a team player.” Nope. Team Player is code word for “Do more, and never get paid extra for it.”

Sometimes, you middle managers who table pound for team players never pay more than an extra 1–2% for high performers. Which isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.

Other middle managers and business owners say, “I’ll just find another programmer who does more and doesn't ask for more money.” Good luck with that. It’s only a matter of time before the new programmer who pumps out tasks at light speed realizes the futility of his extra effort.

The beauty of daylighting is it goes back to a meritocracy in its purest form. I serve clients, I smash deadlines, and other people, either customers, or other clients, pay me money. There is no office politics. There are no broken employment contracts. For my side business, every hour I side hustle at my day job translates directly into more money. And the amount of money my side hustle gains me is more than any paltry raise or bonus you middle managers will ever produce.

Daylighting is the natural byproduct of middle managers abandoning the meritocracy due to laziness or greed. I bet middle managers are out there right now saying, “Why should I give a programmer a 20% raise? It’s too much money! No matter how much they pump out.” But these same middle managers never do a dollarization measure of what the extra output gains their company.

So once again, if middle managers and business owners are too lazy to do the homework, or too lazy to honor the employment contract, then I, and others like me will continue to daylight.

Don’t worry middle managers, you’ll get high output as mentioned above. You just won’t get any more. If you need me during those last few hours in the day, I’ll be at my desk embracing the meritocracy.

Please leave your tip in the jar.
 
Yeah you guys are right. I appreciate the feedback. I'd love to do it, but it's not worth the risk of losing both jobs especially the current one I have now.

Thanks everyone!
 

C.Mongler

Member
I'm not sure if this is 'illegal' per se, but it's a fucking shit tornado waiting to happen man: don't do it. If you present this idea to your current employer, they will either give you way more to do or cut your hours. If you decide to gamble and not tell anyone, when either employers finds out you will be fired. If you're really that bored at work I suggest something like getting good at solving Rubick's Cubes.
 

vypek

Member
My wife fired someone for taking every Friday/Monday off (unlimited PTO policy) to have a 4 day weekend, they worked every one of those 4 days at Apple retail. This is highly frowned upon in any professional environment or company.

A better question is why on earth would you want to do two jobs in the same time? I don't even want to do one.

Did your wife fire the employee because of the other job or for abuse of the unlimited PTO? Curious if the employee could have gotten away with just using that those days off as just a long weekend all the time.

What a shame to lose a job that is so generous with time off.
 
Is this you OP?
i092_th_dog_reflection.jpg

Like the fable. You know the one when the dog's got a bone. He goes down to the lake to drink and sees his reflection. He goes, 'That dog's got a better bone. I'll have his as well.' And when he opens his mouth, he drops the real bone and loses both.

And what's that got to do with this?

It's what Gareth was saying about if we've got our bones, don't go for other people's bones because you'll lose yours.

What does that mean?

Oh, don't you know? I thought it was bones.
 

Aselith

Member
Just watch TV or something, man...

Or better yet, get some professional training to work on and just work on improving skills in your downtime so that you can get a better and higher paying job if that's what you want and don't have to try to moonlight.
 
I'm a Director of Software Development at an amazing company with phenomenal pay (125k/yr).

Living the Dream
Member
Today, 03:58 PM, Post #1

Goddamn I hope my compsci brother is gonna be able to support my broke ass with that salary.

It's not worth risking dude, you're better off using that free time to train in something. Plus you never know if you'll simultaneously get a heavy workload in both jobs and get smushed.
 
I sit squarely in the middle of this debate.

As a manager, I would say that I'd be obligated to reprimand and even fire someone found to be working for another company on our dime.

But as an employee, I absolutely see that employees are under no obligation to ask for more responsibility if they're completing the work they are tasked with, and not being offered additional compensation for additional work.

That's a mindset that retail and entry-level positions try to beat into employees: "we pay you $x/hour to work your ass off each hour" And to pile as many work responsibilities as possible into each hour. Once you make it a little further up the chain, you realize that you're being paid to fulfill a role and it shouldn't matter how much time you take to fulfill that (as long as, generally speaking, it's done when it needs to be done or earlier).
 

winjet81

Member
As far as I'm concerned, I'm being paid by my performance, production and my ability to meet deadlines, not by my presence in the office from 9-5... and I get more done in 1-2 hours than most people in my field get done in 7-8 hours.

I work at my home office 4 days a week as a project manager but REALLY work about 1-2 hours a day because I've streamlined my processes so well over the last 10 years. I'm baffled at those around me who are constantly chugging away in the office and always getting stressed out about meeting their own deadlines.

When I'm at my home office, I spend the other 6-7 hours working other jobs from other companies in the field and freelancing. When I'm in the office, I often block out a meeting room for myself for 1-2 hours and do other work when I'm bored.

As long as my deadlines are met, no one gives a damn.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
User named Living the Dream complaining about having a job that pays $125k/year and lets him work from home but it doesn't fill much time. C'mon dude. Most people would kill for that. Keep the one job and invest in your hobbies. Go to the gym. You're in an amazing position to live a fun and fulfilling life.
 

p2535748

Member
If you're meeting deadlines/doing the work asked of you, then personally I don't have a huge problem with it, but you're going to get fired if they find out. Maybe you shouldn't be, maybe you're just "embracing the meritocracy" or whatever that quora post quoted here says, but I'd say there's a 99% chance you'll get fired for something like this.

I know my company specifically forbids this in our contracts, and I suspect most other companies do as well.

The other issue you might run into (though maybe not since you work at home) is the use of company resources for your own gain. You could get in serious trouble for that, depending on how vindictive your employer chooses to be.
 
How the hell would you have two full time jobs with the same hours? Even if you work 7 days a week there isn't enough time.

Also, you gotta decide which of those is your primary job and which is your secondary (and odds are your secondary won't hire you because Doom is no one's second choice)
 
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