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Bungie: "Destiny 2 uses a hybrid of client-server and peer-to-peer technology"

T

Twilight Gap

Member
From the Bungie Weekly Update: https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/45919/7_This-Week-At-Bungie--05252017

So why no dedicated servers?
Matt Segur, Engineering Lead on Destiny 2: Every activity in Destiny 2 is hosted by one of our servers. That means you will never again suffer a host migration during your Raid attempt or Trials match. This differs from Destiny 1, where these hosting duties were performed by player consoles and only script and mission logic ran in the data center. To understand the foundation on which we're building, check out this Destiny 1 presentation from GDC. Using the terms from this talk, in Destiny 2, both the Mission Host and Physics Host will run in our data centers.
Click to expand...

Why peer-to-peer? Are we trying to save money?
Matt: Nope! We've invested heavily in new server infrastructure for Destiny 2, including using cloud servers for gameplay for the first time. We really believe this is the best model for all of Destiny 2's varied cooperative and competitive experiences. Engineering will always involve tradeoffs and cost-benefit analysis, but as a team we've got no regrets about the unique technology we've built for Destiny 2.
Click to expand...

Wait, so we do have dedicated servers?
Matt: We don't use that term, because in the gaming community, ”dedicated servers" refers to pure client-server networking models. Destiny 2 uses a hybrid of client-server and peer-to-peer technology, just like Destiny 1. The server is authoritative over how the game progresses, and each player is authoritative over their own movement and abilities. This allows us to give players the feeling of immediacy in all their moving and shooting – no matter where they live and no matter whom they choose to play with.
Click to expand...

With Destiny 2 coming out on PC, does peer-to-peer networking put players at risk of being cheated?
Matt: The PC platform poses unique security challenges for Destiny 2, but our security Ninjas have spent several years building a plan for how to engage with this new and vibrant community. We have a variety of top-secret strategies to ensure that the life of a cheater in Destiny 2 PC will be nasty, brutish, and short. And, regardless of what platform you play on, all changes to your persistent character are communicated directly to our secure data center with no peer-to-peer interference.
Click to expand...


More at link, but that's the gist of it. I've personally never noticed host migrations in the first game, but lag was definitely a problem if one player had poor connection.
 
N

nowai

Member
"each player is authoritative over their own movement and abilities"

This is still a big issue and opens the game up for exploits.

"We have a variety of top-secret strategies to ensure that the life of a cheater in Destiny 2 PC will be nasty, brutish, and short."

I read this as saying "yep, there will be cheating, but we will ban them". Not ideal whatsoever or a satisfactory alternative to dedicated servers, but hopefully the bans will be quick and permanent.
 
S

SodiumBenzoate

Member
I just assumed they are using the same Anti-Cheat as Overwatch - which as been very good IMO- as part of the Blizzard infrastructure package, but that makes it sound like they are developing their own tools instead..
 
A

Artemis-Thoth

Member
nowai said:
"each player is authoritative over their own movement and abilities"

This is still a big issue and opens the game up for exploits.

"We have a variety of top-secret strategies to ensure that the life of a cheater in Destiny 2 PC will be nasty, brutish, and short."

I read this as saying "yep, there will be cheating, but we will ban them". Not ideal whatsoever or a satisfactory alternative to dedicated servers, but hopefully the bans will be quick and permanent.
Click to expand...

With it being part of the Bungie infrastructure, I wonder if a ban in Destiny 2 will ban you from all games on Battle.Net?
 
D

Dunk#7

Member
I was just about to post this.

Maybe this will satisfy the vocal minority that always comment negatively about Destiny if given a chance
 
LifEndz

LifEndz

Member
I'm buying the game day one and will spend a lot of time in PVP. I hope whatever the hell they're saying they're doing differently this time around or whatever improvements they made will result in a better PvP experience. These months of playing Overwatch have kinda spoiled me to not having to deal with the kind of lag that was a constant in Destiny 1.
 
T

TyrantII

Member
I'm not worried about cheating since they're using blizzard now. But clients in charge of their own movement probably means red bar ghosting will never be tackled correctly.
 
T

Teasing_Pink

Member
Still disappointing. The latency problems in trials and crucible in general had nothing to do with host migration.

Host migration wasn't what caused players with potato and rusty coat hanger internet connections to have invincibility and teleportation for the duration of a match.

Really wish they took a nod from Ubisoft's Rainbow Six Siege, which uses p2p for pve matches, and dedicated servers for competitive pvp. Destiny's hybrid solution was fine for the unique requirements of patrols, but really needed dedicated servers for anything competitive.
 
SenjutsuSage

SenjutsuSage

Banned
Well, I'll try to keep an open mind, but I still don't like the sound of it. I hope the story portion of Destiny 2 has been significantly improved over the original game. That part apparently not living up to its promise is why I never bothered with the first game.
 
T

TheExodu5

Banned
Sounds great on paper, but putting so much authority on the client side is going to make the PC extremely prone to cheating.

But after reading it again, what exactly is peer to peer about this? Sounds like they're describing dedicated servers (all changes to your character are communicated and validated through the server).
 
N

nOoblet16

Member
TyrantII said:
I'm not worried about cheating since they're using blizzard now. But clients in charge of their own movement probably means red bar ghosting will never be tackled correctly.
Click to expand...
Ermmm wouldnt you would want clients to be in charge of their own movement? I can't remember a game in the last 10-15 years that didn't do this. If you do player movement server side then every action including just walking will be laggy and you'll get that skating effect you used to get in Halo 1 coop as the game would send your movement and position to the host first before actually moving in your own screen when you send the command from the controller.
 
Chief_Mitch

Chief_Mitch

Member
I've never been too bothered by my MP experience... Probably about a dozen MP games i've ever played have been less than great. At the end of the day, Bungie have the cash and backup to do whatever they want, so if this is what they believe is going to give us the best experience then i'll take their word for it!
 
N

nowai

Member
LifEndz said:
I'm buying the game day one and will spend a lot of time in PVP. I hope whatever the hell they're saying they're doing differently this time around or whatever improvements they made will result in a better PvP experience. These months of playing Overwatch have kinda spoiled me to not having to deal with the kind of lag that was a constant in Destiny 1.
Click to expand...

We as players are still to fault for some of the lag because we group up with people across the world. No matter how good someone's internet is, if they are an ocean away, you will experience latency. IB is always the worst, because people tend to do full fireteams more often.

There is also the issue of a lot of console players playing on wifi. Hopefully more PC players will be on a wired connection.

Honestly, I am more worried about exploits and cheating than anything. I hope the punishment for cheating is like what Blizz does for Overwatch. A hardware ban is a must, not simply a temp weekly etc or IP ban.
 
H

HTupolev

Member
Teasing_Pink said:
Still disappointing. The latency problems in trials and crucible in general had nothing to do with host migration.

Host migration wasn't what caused players with potato and rusty coat hanger internet connections to have invincibility and teleportation for the duration of a match.

Really wish they took a nod from Ubisoft's Rainbow Six Siege, which uses p2p for pve matches, and dedicated servers for competitive pvp. Destiny's hybrid solution was fine for the unique requirements of patrols, but really needed dedicated servers for anything competitive.
Click to expand...
According to the OP, they might basically be doing that.

"Physics host" was gunplay and stuff. Putting that on the servers is effectively dedis. Or at least that's what it sounds like.

It would be interesting to see an explicit breakdown of what's server-to-client and what's peer-to-peer.
 
T

TheExodu5

Banned
nOoblet16 said:
Ermmm wouldnt you would want clients to be in charge of their own movement? I can't remember a game in the last 10-15 years that didn't do this. If you do player movement server side then every action including just walking will be laggy and you'll get that skating effect you used to get in Halo 1 coop as the game would send your movement and position to the host first before actually moving in your own screen when you send the command from the controller.
Click to expand...

Yeah I'm not really getting it. Usually the client is in charge of all player control, and other players are communicated by the server and positions are interpolated/extrapolated by the client. It sounds like they're describing this exactly...it sounds like Destiny 2 has dedicated servers.
 
S

Spoo

Member
HTupolev said:
"Physics host" was gunplay and stuff. Putting that on the servers is effectively dedis. Or at least that's what it sounds like.
Click to expand...

This is a curious statement. According to Noseworthy, the game is CPU-bound because the physics are handled on the client side (projectiles, vehicles, etc.) -- so do they have that stuff running on the machine, or is it on these sort-of-kind-of servers of theirs? This doesn't feel like it's adding up.
 
P

panama chief

Member
....but our security Ninjas have spent several years building a plan for how to engage with this new and vibrant community
Click to expand...

come the fuck on Bungie. you had to be begged for custom PvP games and you gave us private matches that were non-customizable. The house that built Halo suddenly didnt think we'd want private matches. but somehow youve been holding security tech ready for PC players? i love you guys but cmon.
 
N

nOoblet16

Member
panama chief said:
come the fuck on Bungie. you had to be begged for custom PvP games and you gave us private matches that were non-customizable. The house that built Halo suddenly didnt think we'd want private matches. but somehow youve been holding security tech ready for PC players? i love you guys but cmon.
Click to expand...
And we've started going off topic here, that didn't take long.
 
H

HTupolev

Member
Spoo said:
This is a curious statement. According to Noseworthy, the game is CPU-bound because the physics are handled on the client side (projectiles, vehicles, etc.) -- so do they have that stuff running on the machine, or is it on these sort-of-kind-of servers of theirs? This doesn't feel like it's adding up.
Click to expand...
It's usually both. Things are calculated predictively in games on client-side to keep things flowing smoothly, and sometimes updated and resynchronized with authoritative information from the host.
 
D

Deku Tree

Member
I am not sure what that guy is saying and I read it three times.

Is it the same system as Destiny 1? Are they saying the dedicated server is for your save file?
 
P

panama chief

Member
nOoblet16 said:
And we've started going off topic here, that didn't take long.
Click to expand...

its a question of ability isnt it? im supposed to trust they have things in place because they say theyve spent time building a plan? how can i trust them with that when they couldnt even take the best things of what they had in place with their previous game and bring that to fruition in destiny?
 
H

HTupolev

Member
yanipheonu said:
But what about the netcode? Never expected dedicated servers, but hopefully they've made the tickrate better.
Click to expand...
The "10 tickrate" post was a misinterpretation of Bungie's networking presentation. The networking presentation describes the dedicated server activity hosts (which are used to keep high-level game status things like objectives stable) as using a tickrate of 10Hz, and it mentions that to emphasize how little internet throughput those functions need. As far as I know, Bungie has never said what the gunplay/physics tickrate is.

I guess they never said it isn't ten, but unless someone has done some peeking at network behavior since then and conclusively shown something, we have no idea.
 
Ozzy Onya A2Z

Ozzy Onya A2Z

Member
Great news about never having host migration in D2, as an Aussie group RAID host migration was a fucking nightmare, often one member of our group would be assigned host and always migrate and just lock the game up. Literally.

Happy to hear that's not an issue moving forward.
 
T

Teasing_Pink

Member
HTupolev said:
According to the OP, they might basically be doing that.

"Physics host" was gunplay and stuff. Putting that on the servers is effectively dedis. Or at least that's what it sounds like.

It would be interesting to see an explicit breakdown of what's server-to-client and what's peer-to-peer.
Click to expand...
I want to believe. I loved playing trials in Destiny, but it was heartbreaking to get to the final boss and have to struggle more against latency than a skilled opponent.

Maybe Segur specifically calling out that host migration would be fixed, while not mentioning the problems most people actually had is what caught my attention.
 
T

tuxfool

Banned
HTupolev said:
According to the OP, they might basically be doing that.

"Physics host" was gunplay and stuff. Putting that on the servers is effectively dedis. Or at least that's what it sounds like.

It would be interesting to see an explicit breakdown of what's server-to-client and what's peer-to-peer.
Click to expand...

Yeah, their explanation doesn't really say just what they're doing on the client machines that are the temporary hosts.

The server is authoritative over how the game progresses, and each player is authoritative over their own movement and abilities. This allows us to give players the feeling of immediacy in all their moving and shooting – no matter where they live and no matter whom they choose to play with.
Click to expand...

This is no different to what happens in dedicated servers, where clients have authority over their own actions directly related to user input (then validated by the server). Where it gets dicey is who is authoritative in pvp matches.
 
Koutsoubas

Koutsoubas

Member
I really dont care about PVP, only PVE. After playing battlefield 64 players everything else seems to bore me.

Maybe itll pass and I will try some pvp games in the future
 
N

nowai

Member
HTupolev said:
The "10 tickrate" post was a misinterpretation of Bungie's networking presentation. The networking presentation describes the dedicated server activity hosts (which are used to keep high-level game status things like objectives stable) as using a tickrate of 10Hz, and it mentions that to emphasize how little internet throughput those functions need. As far as I know, Bungie has never said what the gunplay/physics tickrate is.

I guess they never said it isn't ten, but unless someone has done some peeking at network behavior since then and conclusively shown something, we have no idea.
Click to expand...

I'd have to look up the exact quote, but they said the tick rate of 10 was used for things like item boxes etc. Not player movement and location.

This was widely misquoted and people have been running with "Destiny has a tick rate of 10" ever since. It's quite tiring to keep reading tbh.
 
S

SpiceMelange

Member
nowai said:
"each player is authoritative over their own movement and abilities"

This is still a big issue and opens the game up for exploits.

"We have a variety of top-secret strategies to ensure that the life of a cheater in Destiny 2 PC will be nasty, brutish, and short."

I read this as saying "yep, there will be cheating, but we will ban them". Not ideal whatsoever or a satisfactory alternative to dedicated servers, but hopefully the bans will be quick and permanent.
Click to expand...

Pretty much every online game's movement and abilities are client side, you don't wait for the server's go. The server ofc has the last word and you may rollback from a disagreement but you don't wait for your ping time for W to make you move forward, in any game.
 
K

Kuga

Member
PR's damage control can't change reality:

1.) Any sort of P2P networking where the game client is authoritative on its game state (or, in this case, only some aspects like movement/shooting) is ripe for exploitation.

2.) The "anti-cheat" statement rings hollow. How can Bungie proactively succeed at a task that has caused every other competitive multiplayer game developer to partake in a game of cat and mouse?

3.) They absolutely tried to save money on infrastructure and now it's too late in development to change the architecture in time for launch.

AAA developers have no excuses for this sort of "trade off", at least in the PC space where expectations are higher.

That said, it would be a shame if the game's success/longevity was hampered by such a stupid decision. Hopefully dedicated servers for PVP are on the roadmap now and will be coming sooner rather than later.
 
L

LukasTaves

Member
TheExodu5 said:
Sounds great on paper, but putting so much authority on the client side is going to make the PC extremely prone to cheating.

But after reading it again, what exactly is peer to peer about this? Sounds like they're describing dedicated servers (all changes to your character are communicated and validated through the server).
Click to expand...
Seems to me they are putting all physics, ai and the logic around that in P2p, while the server host only overall game logic like creating an event, killing enemies and sending new ones, so you don't have host migration but still would have a bad time if one of the players have a bad connection.
 
S

Spoo

Member
HTupolev said:
It's usually both. Things are calculated predictively in games on client-side to keep things flowing smoothly, and sometimes updated and resynchronized with authoritative information from the host.
Click to expand...

Right, I just get the sense from the description in the bungie post, and the talk of "physics host" being moved to their side, that that would mean a lot less of the work occurs on the client machine itself (ie, player throws a grenade, and instead of the player sending where it thinks the grenade is and synchronizing back and forth, once the action is accomplished on the client side, the physics host then takes over duty and synchronizes data back to the player). I could be butchering how they have it working (as they say, it's complicated), but that's what I'm seeing from their explanation.
 
Falchion

Falchion

Member
Yeah so it's obviously cheaper but at least their network team is trying to make things as good as possible.
 
S

spindoctor

Member
Just about 3 months ago we had the For Honor devs telling us how their networking technology was this never before seen P2P implementation and how it was so good and what not. And of course, we know how that turned out (exactly as predicted).

Now you have Bungie trying the same thing. Telling us how client authoritative anything in multiplayer is a good idea. This will also turn out exactly the same way as every other P2P implementation has turned out. You either have dedicated servers or you don't. There is nothing in between.
 
Lactose_Intolerant

Lactose_Intolerant

Member
Why peer-to-peer? Are we trying to save money?

Matt: Nope! We've invested heavily in new server infrastructure for Destiny 2, including using cloud servers for gameplay for the first time. We really believe this is the best model for all of Destiny 2's varied cooperative and competitive experiences. Engineering will always involve tradeoffs and cost-benefit analysis, but as a team we’ve got no regrets about the unique technology we’ve built for Destiny 2.
Click to expand...

Answer: Yep!
 
L

LCGeek

formerly sane
It doesn't use SQM or bothers to deal with why any network not running is making the network link worse or prone to latency issues.

All I heard was a lot of marketing speak instead of addressing something that doesn't require much to solve. To any gamer who might care take the link I mentioned seriously debloat your connection if you want a better experience.
 
S

SmoothRunningGun

Member
Koutsoubas said:
I really dont care about PVP, only PVE. After playing battlefield 64 players everything else seems to bore me.

Maybe itll pass and I will try some pvp games in the future
Click to expand...

I'd be ok if they dropped pvp and focused on pve. At least they wouldn't have deal with all these complaints. I enjoy the pvp on occasion but it's not what I come to destiny for.
 
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