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[Sword Of Doom]

There's videos of people having their way with the last gen version of Destiny. Hope that doesn't become an issue with D2 on pc.

 

[terencecah]

i don't care as long as it works

 

[ZeoVGM]

Alright, now they just need to go into more detail with Guided Games and how they work.

Because if you can only search for games if you're alone and if it doesn't work for heroic difficulty that's bullshit.

 

[darkistheway]

i don't care as long as it works

Same here.

 

[Holiday]

None of the "three hard problems" mentioned here justify the decision to go with a P2P hybrid over pure dedicated servers; all three can (and have been) solved equally or better by games that use a dedicated server infrastructure. I don't personally care, I'll buy Destiny 2 (maybe even double dip on PS4 and PC) and enjoy it, but the doublespeak in the Bungie messaging along with the readiness of fans to ignore and/or defend it is mildly infuriating.

Yep.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

Just about 3 months ago we had the For Honor devs telling us how their networking technology was this never before seen P2P implementation and how it was so good and what not. And of course, we know how that turned out (exactly as predicted).

Now you have Bungie trying the same thing. Telling us how client authoritative anything in multiplayer is a good idea. This will also turn out exactly the same way as every other P2P implementation has turned out. You either have dedicated servers or you don't. There is nothing in between.

This is the exact tech/marketing that leads to terms like online smoke and mirrors becoming commonplace. What a player sees in game for their character/inputs is their calculations/approximations so the game feels responsive and awesome. What the server/scoreboard and PvP kill engagements actually decide is another story entirely.

The further a player is from the dedicated host or peer based server the worse their in game latency and the more their reported approximations/simulation inaccuracies spread from the authoritative version of the game making decisions for outcomes. It's blatantly obvious to any individual or smaller parties getting shafted to USA-centric servers or peer hosted games for example.

What these engineers, developer and designers do is nothing short of amazing with the tech involved but until something like instant quantum internet enabled networking/computing becomes mainstream for gaming you're not going to see any tech wizardry 100% solve latency and processing timing differences for players. That goes for dedicated or P2P, the reduction of latency and intelligent matching of regional players/parties reduce the perception of these issues. Bungie obviously feel a hybrid can deliver a better feeling gaming to each of the end players.

 

[FiraB]

If your using the a cloud based architecture then you have no reason not to have horizontal scaling dedicated servers, it's way cheaper then building your own infrastructure and you give the players what they want.

I understand what they are thinking of going for but it will have problems, cheating will be the least of them.

 

[Zarth]

Client Authority (which is what they have here for Movement and Abilities) is the exact opposite of what we are told to do in networking for security purposes.

It is what you do when you are cheap or cannot get the right online performance without doing it. You don't do it to make things better.

 

[NullPointer]

Just about 3 months ago we had the For Honor devs telling us how their networking technology was this never before seen P2P implementation and how it was so good and what not. And of course, we know how that turned out (exactly as predicted).

Now you have Bungie trying the same thing. Telling us how client authoritative anything in multiplayer is a good idea. This will also turn out exactly the same way as every other P2P implementation has turned out. You either have dedicated servers or you don't. There is nothing in between.

Yeah, I thought that sounded familiar.

Client Authority (which is what they have here for Movement and Abilities) is the exact opposite of what we are told to do in networking for security purposes.

It is what you do when you are cheap or cannot get the right online performance without doing it. You don't do it to make things better.

"Never trust the client."

 

[alt27]

Alright, now they just need to go into more detail with Guided Games and how they work.

Because if you can only search for games if you're alone and if it doesn't work for heroic difficulty that's bullshit.

Wheres the source that it only works for normal mode?

 

[Midas]

Anyone working with net code? This sounds a lot like damage control and that it's basically the same thing as in Destiny 1.

 

[Zarth]

Anyone working with net code? This sounds a lot like damage control and that it's basically the same thing as in Destiny 1.

Having the Physics on server hardware is definitely an improvement. This is in effect close to dedicated servers; at least all the shooting should feel very crisp but movement may still ghost from laggy players if it is accepting their late inputs.

Curious if it is still 10 hz now or if they got that faster. I think 10hz is a bit outdated even though all the 60hz/120hz madness ppl are into is also a little over the top.

They are begging for cheaters on PC or any console with future custom firmware though.

 

[electricpirate]

Anyone working with net code? This sounds a lot like damage control and that it's basically the same thing as in Destiny 1.

They've moved the largest portion of game logic from p2p hosts to a dedicated host.

 

[electricpirate]

Having the Physics on server hardware is definitely an improvement. This is in effect close to dedicated servers; at least all the shooting should feel very crisp but movement may still ghost from laggy players if it is accepting their late inputs.

Curious if it is still 10 hz now or if they got that faster. I think 10hz is a bit outdated even though all the 60hz/120hz madness ppl are into is also a little over the top.

They are begging for cheaters on PC or any console with future custom firmware though.

Pretty sure d1 physics ticks were 30 hz, and 10hz was just for some very specific elements, but people ran with that.

Edit: yup that's right https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/45459/7_This-Week-at-Bungie--11172016

 

[veloxStrix]

Client Authority (which is what they have here for Movement and Abilities) is the exact opposite of what we are told to do in networking for security purposes.

It is what you do when you are cheap or cannot get the right online performance without doing it. You don't do it to make things better.

It's definitely not. They talked at GDC about how their server setup had dedicated host servers for game progress and physics while off-loading everything else to the client. Ultimately, the server is still the only "true" game. The tech they are using is actually pretty sweet and a big factor in how seamless the PvE felt in the game. I think the issue with people not really being wowed by the whole thing is that the free roam missions were where the whole system would have been most impressive. Unfortunately, the free roam in Destiny was relegated to grinding materials for a decent portion of the game's life and never really had anything too impressive content-wise even later on in its life cycle.

Edit: In one of the threads recently, someone posted a link to the GDC slides. So if you want to give them a read they are somewhere out there.

This is why I can nail a red bar player only for them to teleport to the side and instantly kill me? I have dozens of recordings of red bar players abusing this to the top of the scoreboard. So frustrating.

Something that actually gives me a decent amount of trust in Destiny's networking was that when I visited my parents back in Indiana, I had fairly bad PvP matchmaking. The games were often laggy and I had the same issues that many others have complained about. But when I came back home to downtown Boston I had much, much better games and very few issues overall. That seems to fall in line with their idea of finding "tight local matches" and it would be nice if they could improve upon that. I guess why I'm quoting someone here is that it might simply be because of your location not having a high enough population density - in which case, that is a weakness of the system they should try to correct.

 

[Koh]

This is why I can nail a red bar player only for them to teleport to the side and instantly kill me? I have dozens of recordings of red bar players abusing this to the top of the scoreboard. So frustrating.

 

[ZeoVGM]

Wheres the source that it only works for normal mode?

Screen shots from the reveal show options for Guided Games under "Normal" but not under "Heroic." No one knows if the options pop up when you hover over the difficulty or not.

To make things more worrying, the screen shots were for the Nightfall, which could mean that they made an easy "normal" version of the Nightfall, which obviously completely kills the point of the Nightfall, and only added matchmaking to that.

Which would mean Bungie clearly still doesn't get it.

 

[SmartWaffles]

Screen shots from the reveal show options for Guided Games under "Normal" but not under "Heroic." No one knows if the options pop up when you hover over the difficulty or not.

To make things more worrying, the screen shots were for the Nightfall, which could mean that they made an easy "normal" version of the Nightfall, which obviously completely kills the point of the Nightfall, and only added matchmaking to that.

Which would mean Bungie clearly still doesn't get it.

Maybe they removed Heroic strikes and merged it with Nightfall?

 

[Zarth]

It's definitely not. They talked at GDC about how their server setup had dedicated host servers for game progress and physics while off-loading everything else to the client. Ultimately, the server is still the only "true" game. The tech they are using is actually pretty sweet and a big factor in how seamless the PvE felt in the game. I think the issue with people not really being wowed by the whole thing is that the free roam missions were where the whole system would have been most impressive. Unfortunately, the free roam in Destiny was relegated to grinding materials for a decent portion of the game's life and never really had anything too impressive content-wise even later on in its life cycle.

Edit: In one of the threads recently, someone posted a link to the GDC slides. So if you want to give them a read they are somewhere out there.



Something that actually gives me a decent amount of trust in Destiny's networking was that when I visited my parents back in Indiana, I had fairly bad PvP matchmaking. The games were often laggy and I had the same issues that many others have complained about. But when I came back home to downtown Boston I had much, much better games and very few issues overall. That seems to fall in line with their idea of finding "tight local matches" and it would be nice if they could improve upon that. I guess why I'm quoting someone here is that it might simply be because of your location not having a high enough population density - in which case, that is a weakness of the system they should try to correct.

As cool as their networking model is they lose me at "each player is authoritative over their own movement and abilities".

This would imply that the server may still process the physics but is listening to whatever the client says it does. Thats a huge open door for a lot of bad stuff.

 

[FIREKNIGHT2029]

What a joke.

P2P or "P2P hybrid" in 2017 is laughable.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

Does anyone know the regions Bungie is going to have servers in? More specifically are we covered in Aus or are we off to Singapore/Asia or worse...US servers?

At least with Xbox/Azure we can look up specific datacentre support.

 

[Lunafreya Nox Fleuret]

I dont know if I trust this but we will see soon enough. I know for sure that if I see error code bee again when every other game works online, i'm going to be pissed off. People say it's internet but it isn't if all my other games work.....

 

[Zarth]

This is why I can nail a red bar player only for them to teleport to the side and instantly kill me? I have dozens of recordings of red bar players abusing this to the top of the scoreboard. So frustrating.

Probably.

The way it works in Destiny from what I can tell (or generally when someone says Client Authority over movement):

• Player 1 is moving forward
• Player 1 lags for a few hundred milliseconds
• Player 1 turns left and starts moving to Player 2's left
• Player 1 stops lagging
• Physics Server receives Player 1's commands
• Physics Server accepts all of players commands when client says they happened because Player 1 is authoritative over his own movement
• Physics Server corrects Player 1's position on Player 2's game rubberbanding Player 1 to the left to correct the now incorrect position Player 2 has been seeing

The way it ideally works when the server is authoritative over movement:

• Player 1 is moving forward
• Player 1 lags for a few hundred milliseconds
• Player 1 turns left and starts moving to Player 2's left
• Player 1 stops lagging
• Physics Server receives Player 1's lag delayed commands
• Physics Server rejects some/all of Player 1's commands for time that is too far in the past or it applies the commands at the time received
• Server corrects Player 1 on their client because some of their movement was rejected/delayed and their "client side prediction" was incorrect
• Player 1 continues doing what they did on Player 2's game possibly with minor interpolation correction (no rubberband).

This is why when you lag in say Counterstrike you skip/rubberband but when you lag in Destiny you don't. You just end up whereever you are locally with some delay on the server so everyone else sees you skip/rubberband but its smooth as butter for you.

 

[ZeoVGM]

Maybe they removed Heroic strikes and merged it with Nightfall?

No, the screen shots make it clear it's for the weekly Nightfall.

 

[GhaleonEB]

No, the screen shots make it clear it's for the weekly Nightfall.

I think he's saying, there are no more Heroic Strikes. Instead there's a Normal and Heroic Nightfall. (Which is what I'm guessing, as well.)

 

[Joyful]

Just about 3 months ago we had the For Honor devs telling us how their networking technology was this never before seen P2P implementation and how it was so good and what not. And of course, we know how that turned out (exactly as predicted).

the destiny 2 crowbcat video should be fun at least

 

[Simply Sami]

Dedicated servers aren't like the magical solution everybody is making them out to be. One of the worst online games this gen BF3 which had the most problems used dedicated servers.

Bungie are also catering for players in parts of the world where they would be forced to join a server which they will end up lagging in. If you lagging in dedicated servers then you can forget playing that game most of the time as the servers are too far away.

But if you lagging in p2p then atleast you could fix that problem. They can also group you up with people near your location. Where as with dedicated servers even if you playing with people near your location, if the server is a million miles away then you will end up lagging. Atleast on p2p if you playing with someone near your location that someone could host from that region.

 

[nekkid]

Bungie's "hybrid" is everyone else's P2P.

 

[Trace]

Bungie's "hybrid" is everyone else's P2P.

Except it's not.

 

[Ombala]

So no dedicated servers thats all I read from this.
Nice pr fluff tho.

 

[Surface of Me]

Not having dedicated servers in this day and age is just cheap. Straight up, no explanation can justify it.

 

[ZeoVGM]

I think he's saying, there are no more Heroic Strikes. Instead there's a Normal and Heroic Nightfall. (Which is what I'm guessing, as well.)

I don't think so.

It's a single strike, no mention of a playlist. I highly doubt they would get rid of the Heroic Strike Playlist and just replace it with a single weekly strike that's just an easier version of the Nightfall for that week.

The screen shot makes it pretty clear I think: there is now a normal and a heroic Nightfall. And either you have to hover over the difficulty to see the options or they only are letting people use Guided Games with normal, which would of course be ridiculous.

I don't like getting paranoid or thinking the worst but Bungie is known for their stubbornness and striking ability to make things more difficulty for their community than it needs to be.

 

[nekkid]

Except it's not.

No it pretty much is. This isn't anything exceptional or revolutionary, and how many games classed as P2P have operated for years.

 

[WaterAstro]

I wonder which parts are p2p and server.

I just assumed they are using the same Anti-Cheat as Overwatch - which as been very good IMO- as part of the Blizzard infrastructure package, but that makes it sound like they are developing their own tools instead..

You can't just bring tech from one game to another. They have different processes and memory usage that Overwatch's anti-cheat would be incompatible with Destiny.

 

[clarknova156]

Isn't that more or less the same setup D1 and some of the recently CoD's has?

Yep. Which means same bullshit all over again. Pathetic really. I won't be dealing with that shit again. Considering the level of hype this time around it'll be a shit show during launch. Bungie never learns.

 

[spineduke]

What - this means a guaranteed lost sale from me. At least they made it easy.

 

[SMOK3Y]

Hasn't COD used hybrid since forever?

 

[duhmetree]

I don't think so.

It's a single strike, no mention of a playlist. I highly doubt they would get rid of the Heroic Strike Playlist and just replace it with a single weekly strike that's just an easier version of the Nightfall for that week.

The screen shot makes it pretty clear I think: there is now a normal and a heroic Nightfall. And either you have to hover over the difficulty to see the options or they only are letting people use Guided Games with normal, which would of course be ridiculous.

I don't like getting paranoid or thinking the worst but Bungie is known for their stubbornness and striking ability to make things more difficulty for their community than it needs to be.

They've used the word Heroic recently to describe the new Public Events... D2 Heroic = D1 Challenge mode possibly. . Nightfall challenge mode

 

[StrategyFan]

if i had to guess:

sounds like fancytalk for a large amount of backwards reconciliation, but done client-side instead of server-side in order to minimize server cpu load

not ideal for competitive play. should be fine for cooperative play.

 

[Tecnniqe]

With it being part of the Bungie infrastructure, I wonder if a ban in Destiny 2 will ban you from all games on Battle.Net?

No. B.Net only revokes the cdkey in question.

 

[StMeph]

<network wizardry>

Could you elaborate on how to make the changes on routers?

 

[ZeoVGM]

They've used the word Heroic recently to describe the new Public Events... D2 Heroic = D1 Challenge mode possibly. . Nightfall challenge mode

I'm not sure what you're referring to. When did they refer to the public events as being the heroic difficulty level?

And either way, the point is that it should have Guided Games available for it. Whether it's a "challenge mode" or not. The entire point of Guided Games is to use it for the end game activities.

 

[MysteryM]

Halo 5 runs dedicated and can still suffer from lag dispite us being on fibre in the uk. I'm not a destiny player, and don't have any interest however I wouldn't get too hung up on it being p2p. Seriously the jump to dedicated does have a difference but does not guarantee anything and certainly from our experience doesn't stop laggy games.

 

[FutureLarking]

"It costs too much and daddy Activision was like Naw fuk that"

 

[ChubbleDucks]

I'm not sure what you're referring to. When did they refer to the public events as being the heroic difficulty level?

And either way, the point is that it should have Guided Games available for it. Whether it's a "challenge mode" or not. The entire point of Guided Games is to use it for the end game activities.

They didn't.
They said that public events will have optional challenges. If the event is completed in a specific way you get additional goodies.

 

[mocolostrocolos]

I never had serious issues with PS4 Destiny, maybe a bit of lag on crucible from time to time. Nothing outrageous.

I hope this fixes those bits of lag issues.

 

[Leyasu]

We as players are still to fault for some of the lag because we group up with people across the world. No matter how good someone's internet is, if they are an ocean away, you will experience latency. IB is always the worst, because people tend to do full fireteams more often.

All matchmaking should be region locked as standard. If people want to play on the other side of the world, then they should have to check a box that takes them out of the region filter.

As for D2. I think that Bungie have just saved me some money. No dedicated servers, no buy. No matter how much they dress this up, its still p2p.

 

[Leyasu]

Halo 5 runs dedicated and can still suffer from lag dispite us being on fibre in the uk. I'm not a destiny player, and don't have any interest however I wouldn't get too hung up on it being p2p. Seriously the jump to dedicated does have a difference but does not guarantee anything and certainly from our experience doesn't stop laggy games.

Lag is rare on halo 5, latency is rife on the other hand. It's what happens when clueless devs just want fast matchmaking, and dont care what region you are playing in. When 343 region locked the matchmaking for a bit. Halo played likre a dream.

Dedicated servers are great. But they cannot overcome the laws of physics. Region filtering should be the standard

 

[Conciliator]

Sounds like either an innovative development or a total disaster.

 

[ZeoVGM]

They didn't.
They said that public events will have optional challenges. If the event is completed in a specific way you get additional goodies.

Thanks. I didn't think they did but thought maybe I missed something.