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Isn't borderless windowed mode supposed to eliminate screen tearing?

E

etta

my hard graphic balls
Am I missing some setting or something, because running my games in borderless mode doesn't eliminate screen tearing for some reason. I know Windows is supposed to do some auto Vsync with low or close to no input lag so that's why people do borderless, but it doesn't work for me. Tried it with Battlefield 1, Rainbow Six Siege, Overwatch, Hitman, Deus Ex Mankind Divided, with and without triple buffering, it still tears like when in full screen mode.
Do I need to enable something specific or override in Nvidia Control Panel?
 
E

etta

my hard graphic balls
jediyoshi said:
Window/borderless window should be employing triple buffering by virtue of how windows work in the OS.
Click to expand...
Yea Windows forces it so you don’t get tearing when you do pretty much everything else, so I’m not sure why it’s not kicking in on mine.
 
L

Lork

Member
Are you running Windows 7 and if so, are you using a classic theme with the "Aero" features like translucent title bars disabled? It used to be possible to disable the Desktop Window Manager and revert to the old system by doing that, and I'm pretty sure DWM is what applies the triple buffering.
 
Duchess O'Death

Duchess O'Death

Member
Nvidia has a new thing I think it's called "fast vsync" that's supposed to eliminate tearing and input lag.

It renders as fast as the gpu can and discards unwanted frames instead of pushing them to the monitor as soon as they're rendered.
 
J

Jazzem

Member
Izuna said:
No, but Gsync does

also, not sure why you'd want all that extra input lag
Click to expand...

This has confused me a lot, as I've read many conflicting reports as to whether borderless adds or detracts input lag...I thought the whole idea was that it was better than vsync for response time! But then I'm not sure where I heard that
 
C

CertifiedFP

Member
Izuna said:
No, but Gsync does

also, not sure why you'd want all that extra input lag
Click to expand...

As someone who swears by Borderless Windowed... I've never had any input lag playing Borderless. But I can say I've had input lag in Exclusive with Vsync.

Don't know what I'd do without the fast and safe Alt-Tabbing of Borderless Windowed.
 
U

Unai

Member
So many misinformation in this thread.

Borderless will force v-sync unless composition is disabled. This just after the thread about tank controls have disappointed me.
 
E

etta

my hard graphic balls
I’m on Windows 10, with a 1080 Ti and latest drivers.
Durante said:
The only way for a game to tear in windowed mode is if desktop composition is disabled.

What extra input lag?
Click to expand...
Desktop composition? Is it disabled by default or something? I just did a fresh install of Windows.
 
Kadin

Kadin

Member
etta said:
I'm on Windows 10, with a 1080 Ti and latest drivers.

Desktop composition? Is it disabled by default or something? I just did a fresh install of Windows.
Click to expand...
It's enabled by default on W10. There's no option to disable it like there was in W7. I assume there's some workaround to disable it, though I don't know what this is. But I don't think that's the solution to your problem. :)
 
D

Durante

Member
etta said:
I’m on Windows 10, with a 1080 Ti and latest drivers.

Desktop composition? Is it disabled by default or something? I just did a fresh install of Windows.
Click to expand...
It's enabled by default, I'm not even sure you can disable it on Windows 10.

Vash63 said:
it's pretty well known that vsync and triple buffered vsync cause additional input lag though
Click to expand...
Well, if your comparison is no V-sync, sure. But who would want to deal with tearing?

Anyway, borderless windowed does not necessarily introduce additional input lag:
blur-busters-gsync-101-overwatch-gsync-full-vs-bor-vs-win.png
Click to expand...
 
E

etta

my hard graphic balls
Sooooooooo if it’s enabled by default, why isn’t it working? Am I doing something wrong? Do I need to force Vsync off in global Nvidia panel and then do borderless in-game? What am I missing...
 
D

Durante

Member
I have no idea, it shouldn't even be possible to get borderless windowed mode to tear on Windows 10.

... are you sure you are actually running borderless windowed mode?
 
V

Vash63

Member
Durante said:
It's enabled by default, I'm not even sure you can disable it on Windows 10.

Well, if your comparison is no V-sync, sure. But who would want to deal with tearing?

Anyway, borderless windowed does not necessarily introduce additional input lag:
Click to expand...

That's with gsync, Nvidia has some hooks into DWM that behave differently with gsync enabled. I personally can't handle the input lag caused by vsync, fast paced FPS like TF2, OW or CSGO are basically unplayable with it IMO.
 
Kadin

Kadin

Member
etta said:
Sooooooooo if it’s enabled by default, why isn’t it working? Am I doing something wrong? Do I need to force Vsync off in global Nvidia panel and then do borderless in-game? What am I missing...
Click to expand...
I don't have these issues myself and I do in fact have Vsync disabled by default in the Nvidia Control Panel. Not sure if it's related, but I'd give it a try.
 
M

Mango Positive

Member
I've got no technical knowledge about borderless windowed mode, but I will say that if you treated yourself to a 1080 ti, you should treat yourself to a G-Sync monitor. It's pretty rad.
 
E

etta

my hard graphic balls
Durante said:
I have no idea, it shouldn't even be possible to get borderless windowed mode to tear on Windows 10.

... are you sure you are actually running borderless windowed mode?
Click to expand...
Yea I’m scratching my head too, because I found out from a friend who basically gets headaches from tearing so he can only play in borderless. Siege and Battlefield have the option right there, I used it and disabled Vsync and any double/triple buffering, and the fast Alt+Tab switching works so I know for sure it is indeed running borderless, but it tears...
Maybe it’s the motherboard or my 2500K? My mobo is an Asrock Extreme3 Gen3, maybe there is something fucky in the Bios? Can’t think of any other reason.

Kadin said:
I don't have these issues myself and I do in fact have Vsync disabled by default in the Nvidia Control Panel. Not sure if it's related, but I'd give it a try.
Click to expand...
Hmmm, lemme see.

Mango Positive said:
I've got no technical knowledge about borderless windowed mode, but I will say that if you treated yourself to a 1080 ti, you should treat yourself to a G-Sync monitor. It's pretty rad.
Click to expand...

I will, right after I upgrade my ancient CPU 🤣.
 
Kadin

Kadin

Member
I'm definitely not the smartest on this subject but I thought in a very simple example, if you run a game in the same resolution as what your desktop resolution is set to, running borderless windowed would prevent any type of tearing. Is this correct or am I completely wrong here?

edit: so I just thought about this and realized you'd only run borderless windowed when running at the same resolution... so yeah I'm an idiot. Please ignore the above. :p
 
B

Budi

Member
Lork said:
Are you running Windows 7 and if so, are you using a classic theme with the "Aero" features like translucent title bars disabled? It used to be possible to disable the Desktop Window Manager and revert to the old system by doing that, and I'm pretty sure DWM is what applies the triple buffering.
Click to expand...
Changing the theme to Aero has helped with my screen tearing issues in every game on Win 7. I find it weird.
 
S

scitek

Member
Don't you have to leave Vsync on in-game for it to work in borderless windowed mode? I thought that was the whole deal with the UWP games like Gears Remastered was you couldn't disable Vsync at all, and now you can. I know it'll tear for me if I turn Vsync off.
 
I

Izuna

Banned
Durante said:
What extra input lag?
Click to expand...

Input lag from Vsync/Triple Buffering.

Unless people are claiming whatever Borderless does to remove tearing is not introducing input lag. Battle(non)sense would love that.

Durante said:
Well, if your comparison is no V-sync, sure. But who would want to deal with tearing?

Anyway, borderless windowed does not necessarily introduce additional input lag:
Click to expand...

See that only has no tearing because of Gsync. Without it, you're getting input lag with whatever is reducing the tearing.

Isn't there a way to limit the framerate so that tearing appears on the bottom of the screen if you don't have Gsync?
 
E

etta

my hard graphic balls
Wait what the fuck, trying it in Siege now, if I run in Windowed mode (not Borderless), it doesn't tear, but I get the ugly ass borders and the screen space is slightly smaller. If I run it in Borderless it tears, wtf...
 
T

TheAdmiester

Member
etta said:
Wait what the fuck, trying it in Siege now, if I run in Windowed mode (not Borderless), it doesn't tear, but I get the ugly ass borders and the screen space is slightly smaller. If I run it in Borderless it tears, wtf...
Click to expand...
Random question, do you have any windows open under the game when you're trying to play borderless?

I ask because sometimes when I have a window under a game or a browser window, I'll occasionally get tearing in the shape of that window which is a really odd issue.

It sounds silly but just check that everything is minimised when you're running the game.
 
E

etta

my hard graphic balls
TheAdmiester said:
Random question, do you have any windows open under the game when you're trying to play borderless?

I ask because sometimes when I have a window under a game or a browser window, I'll occasionally get tearing in the shape of that window which is a really odd issue.

It sounds silly but just check that everything is minimised when you're running the game.
Click to expand...
No, none, just the game.

Izuna said:
It's good on paper but it's not worth the downsides.

--

etta, have you tried enabling/disabling Game Bar? (or unchecking full screen optimisations)
Click to expand...
Of course, I turned that shit off and Game DVR right away.
 
I

Iceternal

Member
I've had the same issue as OP for a while now .

I only get rid of tearing when I enable the ingame v sync option while in borderless windowed mode but I think it cancels all benefits of said mode.

In the end I've given up and I just play in fullscreen mode .
 
E

etta

my hard graphic balls
Neither the Game Bar nor the Game Mode helped, nor both at the same time.
Ugh, I’ll continue to use Fullscreen + Adaptive forced by Nvidia then, at least there’s less input lag in that one than norman Vsync.
 
M

Mechazawa

Member
The only time I ever experienced something like this was in Nier, where out of the blue one day it decided that it was going to tear in Borderless Fullscreen(and it cascaded out into other games like Siege). I don't know what caused it, it just randomly started happening.

In the end, I ultimately had to wipe and reinstall my Nvidia drivers.
 
E

etta

my hard graphic balls
Mechazawa said:
The only time I ever experienced something like this was in Nier, where out of the blue one day it decided that it was going to tear in Borderless Fullscreen.

In the end, I ultimately had to wipe and reinstall my Nvidia drivers.
Click to expand...
But I’m on a fresh Windows installation 😩
 
M

Mechazawa

Member
etta said:
But I’m on a fresh Windows installation 😩
Click to expand...

It's a pretty weird problem to have, no doubt. But wiping and reinstalling your drivers is a fast enough process, especially after a fresh Windows install when you presumably haven't really made a bunch of configuration changes, that i'd personally do it regardless.
 
J

joeblow

Member
Durante said:
The only way for a game to tear in windowed mode is if desktop composition is disabled.

What extra input lag?
Click to expand...

I have Win 7 with desktop composition enabled. However, whenever I try to play Streets of Rage: Remake, I get tearing in the intro screen and in-game. Nothing I've tried fixes it (windowed or full screen). Is there a way to clear it up?
 
E

etta

my hard graphic balls
Hold on, I think I made some sideways progress, maybe Durante can diagnose this. So I figured out how to eliminate the screen tearing while in Borderless with Vsync forced off: I had to cap the framerate to 60 in RTSS.

Global NVCP - Vsync off and Triple Buffering On
In-game - Borderless on, Vsync off

So now it behaves as it should in Borderless, without tearing and no input lag, but it’s not smooth, there’s stuttering that happens as I move around. It’s not constant, it happens every other second or so, plays smooth in between the stutters. Both BF1 and R6S behave this way.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
 
J

Jacksinthe

Banned
Just tested with my own game for the hell of it. I notice no difference in input lag on the face in borderless but I haven't setup my LED board and camera to be sure. I am fairly sensitive to frame pacing, dips and video lag and they all bug the hell out of me in games.

Turning v sync off completely and adjusting internal caps on framerates I notice no tearing. I did notice, however, my physics tends to slightly break above 700ish FPS which is unexpected. I thought I wrote better interpolation but I guess I am a failure :(
 
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