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Raphael Bob-Waksberg (creator of Bojack Horseman) on political correctness in comedy

Moonkid

Member
Raphael Bob-Waksberg did an interview with VICE and one topic which drew my attention was that of political correctness and censorship, specifically in comedy. This is a discussion that often seems to pop up on Gaf when someone laments the state of comedy, or even society as a whole, so I thought I'd share a perspective from the other side of the coin.
The big debate within the comedy community is the idea of "political correctness," and whether its censorship or valid criticism. Where do you stand on that?

Well censorship is a strong word, right?

I think most people who argue for what you might call political correctness, are not actually arguing for censorship. They're arguing for self-control and self-restraint. They're arguing for people to be conscious of the power they have, right? And I believe that I have a lot of power, as someone making popular entertainment. I do think we have to be careful about the art we put out. We want to make the argument that our art has power so we can't then also say that it has no effect over people, these people are adults who can make their own decisions. I think the art we make influences people, and I think with that power comes great responsibility, to quote Spiderman.

I don't want the government to be censoring people, I don't think there should be censoring boards, but I think that means that we the artists need to be very careful about what we're putting out and what were saying and how we're saying it. And I don't think we're being as careful as we should be.

It's the difference between punching up and punching down.

Absolutely. I'm really glad that kind of idea is starting to take hold. I think that's a great way to kind of frame it. I don't necessarily think anything is off limits but you have to know who your audience is and know who you're talking to and what kind of jokes you're making.

For the media in general really, not just comedy, I'm very much for people being aware of the power they may have so it was refreshing to see someone in his position take 'ownership' of it.

You can read the whole thing here. Doesn't include any major spoilers for the show either so it's safe to read if you haven't seen the show. Season four out September 8th too!
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
We want to make the argument that our art has power so we can't then also say that it has no effect over people, these people are adults who can make their own decisions.
We want to make the argument that our art has power so we can't then also say that it has no effect over people, these people are adults who can make their own decisions.
We want to make the argument that our art has power so we can't then also say that it has no effect over people, these people are adults who can make their own decisions.
We want to make the argument that our art has power so we can't then also say that it has no effect over people, these people are adults who can make their own decisions.
We want to make the argument that our art has power so we can't then also say that it has no effect over people, these people are adults who can make their own decisions.
We want to make the argument that our art has power so we can't then also say that it has no effect over people, these people are adults who can make their own decisions.
We want to make the argument that our art has power so we can't then also say that it has no effect over people, these people are adults who can make their own decisions.

Fuck me I wish I could brand this onto the chests of everyone on Gaming side.
 

mlclmtckr

Banned
This is what happens when you get compassionate adults to talk about this stuff instead of spoiled hacky manchild comedians who are worried that they can't sell tickets without pandering to assholes.
 

Jonnax

Member
Stewart Lee has a good bit about this as well. I'll see if I can dig it up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99s19HBs-6A

Got this quote off Wikiquote:

It really worries me that 84% of this audience agrees with that statement, because the kind of people that say "political correctness gone mad" are usually using that phrase as a kind of cover action to attack minorities or people that they disagree with.
I'm of an age that I can see what a difference political correctness has made. When I was four years old, my grandfather drove me around Birmingham, where the Tories had just fought an election campaign saying, "if you want a nigger for a neighbour, vote Labour," and he drove me around saying, "this is where all the niggers and the coons and the jungle bunnies live." And I remember being at school in the early 80s and my teacher, when he read the register, instead of saying the name of the one asian boy in the class, he would say, "is the black spot in," right?

And all these things have gradually been eroded by political correctness, which seems to me to be about an institutionalised politeness at its worst. And if there is some fallout from this, which means that someone in an office might get in trouble one day for saying something that someone was a bit unsure about because they couldn't decide whether it was sexist or homophobic or racist, it's a small price to pay for the massive benefits and improvements in the quality of life for millions of people that political correctness has made. It's a complete lie that allows the right, which basically controls media now, and international politics, to make people on the left who are concerned about the way people are represented look like killjoys. And I'm sick, I'm really sick-- 84% of you in this room that have agreed with this phrase, you're like those people who turn around and go, "you know who the most oppressed minorities in Britain are? White, middle-class men." You're a bunch of idiots.

From "Heresy", BBC Radio 4, 16th May 2007
 
We want to make the argument that our art has power so we can't then also say that it has no effect over people, these people are adults who can make their own decisions.

I want to get this framed and hang it over my writing desk.
 
The dude gets it. Refreshing to hear from an artist that's actually responsible for his craft and the content of it.

Props to him.
 

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
I swear I thought I was going to be crushed when I opened the thread.

Dude really gets it. I'm really pleased to hear his thoughts are like this. Explains why Bojack is so incredible.
 

gun_haver

Member
That's a pretty standard opinion on this topic. I don't really think it's noteworthy.

The punching up vs punching down thing has become a bit of a platitude though. What people generally mean by it is comedy that does not target ethnicity, gender, sexuality, or disability and does target wealth, power, sometimes whiteness, and ignorance from privilege.

That's pretty clear cut and sounds like a great guidebook to what should and shouldn't be made the butt of jokes, but in practice nothing actually adheres to it completely and where the line is exactly is pretty poorly defined - and that's just the way it's going to be, because comedy isn't just about whether a joke is 'fair' or not, it has to also actually be funny, and sometimes the funniest thing lies in territory that is right on the line and you are not sure what side it falls on and that is part of what makes it funny. There doesn't always have to be an element of transgression in comedy but that's how the concept of comic relief works - where there is tension, a joke is made. The joke itself doesn't have to be completely fair, in fact in that situation, if it was then no tension would really be released because it doesn't target those areas.

Hope that makes some kind of sense, it's a pretty slippery topic.

Also, punching up and punching down is really about power, rather than the various categories I mentioned before. It is where there is a perceived power imbalance in society that the seat of the power is identified as a worthy target for derision. However, even the big proponents of punching up vs punching down will use stupid people and strange people who don't fall neatly into this power imbalance as the butt of jokes. Somebody has to be the fool, or else what are we laughing at. Since white men are put at the top of the power imbalance, they are by far the ones most often made the fool, because it's generally accepted they can take the hit. You can verify this by looking at where the worst, most hackeneyed comedy happens - tv commercials.

So comedians who want to try and throw new light on things will understand that playing it 100% safe and making the white men the target of every joke is basically on the level of a tv commercial and might try to find different fools in their jokes.

I think everything has to be taken case by case as to whether it goes too far, or starts to target vulnerable people in society in a mean-spirited way. The punching up vs punching down thing is fine as a starting point but like I said, it's become a platitude and I don't think it's a good thing for comedy to just take it as set in stone. You've got to fuck around with it and find those tension points. The laughter in those areas comes from the tension itself, and might even help relieve it for the people who are laughing.
 
And like incredibly deep emotionally speaking.

It's far more than just a sitcom.

It speaks volumes when I watch an episode of Bojack in season 3 and feel like these are REAL people, realer than most live action shows. And half of them are talking animals!

There are many moments in the show that are so powerful, but personally the moment in S3 where Bojack
goes to his publicist's house and has a monologue about how it's actually sad and uncomfortable when you see a person in their natural unguarded state instead of comforting and relatable
really REALLY affected me for some reason.
 

aravuus

Member
I swear I thought I was going to be crushed when I opened the thread.

Dude really gets it. I'm really pleased to hear his thoughts are like this. Explains why Bojack is so incredible.

I had zero fear. The show is so goddamn smart and touching that I simply refused to believe the creator is an idiot lol. And it looks like he isn't.

I need to finish s3 and/or rewatch the whole show before s4 hits.
 

lazygecko

Member
I think the whole "punching up and not down" thing is kind of rendered moot, when the type of people who complain about politicial correctness have a recurring tendency to frame their viewpoint as if they're the ones being oppressed and marginalized by society at large.
 
Legit shocked at how well thought out that was
Yeah, I clicked expecting another ass-showing I never wanted to see.

This is well articulated and more than anything, he manages to get out of the usual "political correctness vs censorship" framing. That absolutist framing is so intellectually lazy and sterile, but that's conservative talking points for you: carefully build a straw man as a proxy for your pet peeves, make it about big principles and hand out torches.
 
While I don't necessarily think comedy need to be politically correct, I agree with everything this guy says. Stronger comedy can definitely be made when someone isn't focusing on being edgy or w/e.
 

JCHandsom

Member
I think the whole "punching up and not down" thing is kind of rendered moot, when the type of people who complain about politicial correctness have a recurring tendency to frame their viewpoint as if they're the ones being oppressed and marginalized by society at large.

Few things feel better to a non-persecuted person than the idea of being persecuted.
 

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
I think the whole "punching up and not down" thing is kind of rendered moot, when the type of people who complain about politicial correctness have a recurring tendency to frame their viewpoint as if they're the ones being oppressed and marginalized by society at large.

True, but I'm pretty sure they don't believe that any more than we do.
 

LotusHD

Banned
Thank God he didn't show his ass and say something upsetting. Great response, but in hindsight it isn't that surprising considering the show he's behind.

If y'all not already watching Bojack, fix that please.
 

Mindwipe

Member
That's a pretty standard opinion on this topic. I don't really think it's noteworthy.

The punching up vs punching down thing has become a bit of a platitude though.


Yep.

It has three massive problems as a concept. First is that "up and down" are concepts that human beings are amazingly bad at determining. Like literally hilariously bad.

The second is that human power is (slightly simplistically) a bell curve, and hence the vast majority of the population are usually roughly sideways, which is no flaming help at all.

The third is that you can't determine up or down when people sit in multitudes of positions on thousands of different axis.

Bojack is very, very funny. But frequently it's jokes are about how rich Hollywood celebrities are completely trampled by the expectations of poorer disadvantaged folks. That isn't "punching up", but it's no less true or funny for it.
 
When I saw the title I was dreading what was inside since I like Bojack and was expecting the usual asshole comedian answer who wants to have their cake and eat it too, I'm pleasantly surprised instead.
 

Acorn

Member
Yes, you should all binge bojack. New season starts in a month. Best and most heartfelt thing on tv.

It hits you in the gut with some harsh truths.
 

Tapejara

Member
And wouldn’t you know it Bojack is some of the best and most emotionally effective comedy on TV right now.

Yep, Bojack is great for this. It's a great counter to the idea that comedy is only funny the more transgressive/offensive you get, which is an argument I usually see thrown around in these conversations. See also: Brooklyn Nine-Nine for a show that's diverse, socially conscious and still very funny.
 

Famassu

Member
It's not the subject matter itself that is usually the issue, it's the content/context (& quality) of the joke. Most political correctness advocating people have very few problems with comedians like Louis CK joking about horrible stuff like pedophilia because he's actually a talented comedian & knows what he's doing, so his jokes don't usually come off as bigoted or ignorant or needlessly offensive.
 
Dude gets it, and based on Bojack, this shouldn't be surprising. But that milkshake duck thread we have right now is making me worry about everyone.

(I still regularly randomly remember the complete horrifying bleakness of the feminism episode of Bojack and get bummed out. That show is just the best)
 
I've had this show on my list for the longest time, but never watched it. Now I think I should fix that. Maybe I'll plow through it this weekend.
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
People are offended by offensive stuff. If you put stuff out thats meant to elicit a reaction, then dont cry and play the victim when people have that reaction. Or they can continue being whiny little self-victimizing snowflakes about it.
 

Tapejara

Member
I wouldn't even call BoJack PC. They lean into a bunch of uncomfortable topics like abortion, alcoholism, sexual assault; they just don't spend all of their time shitting on marginalized folk. The writers know that when your show's only shtick is being as offensive as possible it loses its punch (see: Family Guy), and that's why when they do address uncomfortable topics they end up carrying more weight than they would otherwise. Just like how every use of the word "fuck" in Bojack is meaningful because of how sparingly it's used.
 

Sunster

Member
Love when comedians lament at PC culture limiting comedy. Limiting how? Seriously, what master works are we missing out on? Pray tell.

Can't wait for S4
 
What do you say to those who'd take offense to Brapp Brapp, Pew Pew. And for the record, I loved that episode and the catchy, yet caustic tune. Was it merely politically incorrect, or wrecklessly courageous in its refreshing take on the abortion issue?
 
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