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Why has political ideologues made a battlefield out of gaming?
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I get what you say but the contents we have these days aren't varied, it's really hard for 10 peoples to not have something in common in some way or the other.
semiconscious
Member
well, it's because political ideologues tend to make battlefields out of everything...
No. Art has not always been political. Sometimes art is just a goofy picture or silly fat plumber saving a princess.
Just because you *can* look at anything through a political lens doesn't mean you should and doesn't mean that was the intent of the creator.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Everything is political these days and it's destroying Western society
Everything is going according to someone's keikaku
Everything is going according to someone's keikaku
delfrickintree
Banned
Oh cool it's one of those "both sides" non-arguments that only gets posted to make you feel better than everyone. Take your own examples.. they are the same problem.. one is pushing for creating change that nobody asked for, and the other is criticizing a change made that nobody asked for. Who keeps wanting these changes?
Red5
Member
Didn't mean to say all art has to be political but that it has always been part of politics, of course stuff like Dumb and Dumber or Crash Bandicoot aren't political.
But art, and video games being art, for the most part reflect whatever political trends the world is seeing. Post 9/11 we saw many video games about the war on terror, set in Afghanistan or Iraq, same for movies, comics and books. In the 90's it was about the post-Soviet collapse, now it's about gender identity.
What I'm saying is seeing real life politics reflected in video games, movies, books isn't something new, but the intensity of the discourse these days is being amplified by social media and influencers.
Darkmakaimura
Member
Twitter is going nuts over the Starfield pronouns thing. People are mad about it and then you have people who are mad about the people who are mad about it. A vicious circle indeed. I'm watching people who are friends or mutuals with other people unfollowing those people because of it. It's a real mess right now.
Moriarty1889
Member
Sadly they are everywhere.
proandrad
Member
Except there is. Isn't there a whole other gaming forum with people on the "other side," that are specifically asking for that change.
I wish we could get past this stupid idea that games are art merely by virtue of game development being a creative medium.
Like any piece of media, a game is art if and only if it meets the definition of art, which is of course pretty subjective anyway.
The Expendables is a film but it is not art, and "Inside", say, is not a painting or a sculpture but it is a game AND art.
Like any piece of media, a game is art if and only if it meets the definition of art, which is of course pretty subjective anyway.
The Expendables is a film but it is not art, and "Inside", say, is not a painting or a sculpture but it is a game AND art.
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delfrickintree
Banned
Yea it's like an annoying sibling who pesters you until you get mad and lash out, then they run and tell on you like the badguy.
proandrad
Member
That person does become a bad guy if they then become just as annoying. You just end up with two assholes.
Starbuck2907
Member
Historically, many artists (video game devs in this case) identify as activists and/or feel like putting messages in their art. It’s just that much of the artistic activism or messaging is particularly looney and preachy right now. It’s always been there, but it’s just worse than usual now.
delfrickintree
Banned
Wow you're so wise
Hudo
Member
These types of conversations happened before as well, just in a significantly smaller scope and not for everyone to see. Twitter and social media in general gave people the idea that it might be "peak freedom/peak democracy" if platforms were provided where everyone can voice his/her opinions publicly for everyone to see. Unfortunately, 99% of stuff that people have to say and share is just shit. And even worse: The people on these platforms started to segregate into subsets determined by "interests" and these subsets just serve as reinforcing echo chambers, where people pat themselves and each other on the back for their shit.
And retards being retarded when discussing games or really anything is just a consequence of that. That being said, in real life, those who scream the loudest on the internet are usually the quietest, And thank fuck for that.
Twitter and other social media platforms are the perfect example of why direct democracy is a bad idea and for all the flaws representative democracy has, it's still vastly superior when confronted with a populace like that.
And retards being retarded when discussing games or really anything is just a consequence of that. That being said, in real life, those who scream the loudest on the internet are usually the quietest, And thank fuck for that.
Twitter and other social media platforms are the perfect example of why direct democracy is a bad idea and for all the flaws representative democracy has, it's still vastly superior when confronted with a populace like that.
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proandrad
Member
That or someone might be a snowflake.
Starbuck2907
Member
“The Expendables” is art to many people, because as you say, the definition of art is subjective.
Hayabusa83
Banned
I don't have a problem with people putting pronouns in their games, I simply don't play them. I do have a problem with the normalization and even celebration of mental health issues though.
Laieon
Member
What? Art has absolutely always been political (or, at the very least, ideological if we go back far enough to a time when "politics" wasn't a concrete thing yet), but not all art has fit that description. Sometimes, yeah, it's just a funny picture, but lets not pretend that's always the case either.
Looking at prehistorical art (probably, it's too old to really know for sure) in the form of cave paintings and other early art forms propped up religion, rituals, and various groups and tribes.
By the time we got to Mesopotamia and ancient art, we see kings, queens, priests, and other political leaders utilize it to promote and deify themselves, push their religion, gods, and/or other propagandize their viewpoints. From then on, that never really changed.
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Politics using art != Art is political.
Political associations have always used art, but not all art is inherently political.
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Killer8
Member
Many, many Japanese games (as well as anime and movies) could be considered as thematically left-wing.
People clap like seals when a Japanese game has big tits or doesn't bend the knee to weird pronoun stuff, or some other surface level shite, but are then totally oblivious to the deeper messaging present in their works.
Metal Gear Solid V:
"Wow, Kojima sure is a chad putting in Quiet's massive gazongas to piss off the feminists"
Also Metal Gear Solid V:
Nuclear weapons have the capability to destroy us all. As more and more people get access to these weapons, the potential for catastrophe increases. Only complete disarmament and pacifism can save us from our doom.
Now here's an Obama quote in the secret nuclear deterrence ending to hammer the message home:
Based Japan, amirite?
DaGwaphics
Member
I hear you and @
Fahdis
both. While I agree with your "just don't give a shit about what someone else thinks and do your own thing" vibe, I can see where it can put you in an awkward feeling spot if the peer group you are used to interacting with sees you playing a game they deem as "bad" (maybe they are on your friends list or whatever). And then there is the impact that this type of thing can have on the devs themselves as they may feel pressured not to include something in a game they otherwise would for fear of the fallout (which I think is part of the point @
Fahdis
was making also. I guess the easiest solution is just to not get overly entrenched into social media and block users that try and give you a hard time about silly things that shouldn't be a cause of concern (like the video game you are currently playing or the TV/Films you like).
Pejo
Member
In my opinion, it's because ideologues with generally good/stable lives became game developers and writers. Since they haven't had many severe hardships in their life, they push these perceived ones and with social media adding in that "chemical x" to make it blow up. It caused a whole self-reinforcing feedback loop.
They could say obvious stuff like "Racism bad! Sexism bad!" and everyone pats them on the back saying "good job, way to fight those bigots!" which creates a positive feedback loop. Then before you know it, nobody cares about making things fun anymore or making good compelling stories because that won't get them social media pats on the back.
They could say obvious stuff like "Racism bad! Sexism bad!" and everyone pats them on the back saying "good job, way to fight those bigots!" which creates a positive feedback loop. Then before you know it, nobody cares about making things fun anymore or making good compelling stories because that won't get them social media pats on the back.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I'm not watching any of it and am better off for it in my opinion.
Astral Dog
Member
Its not just videogames its everything
one of the reasons is that they see creativity and expression as 'immoral' and obsess over control
one of the reasons is that they see creativity and expression as 'immoral' and obsess over control
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Raonak
Banned
The internet causes people to think that being a toxic asshole is productive, because being a toxic asshole drives engagement.
In terms of politics, I think creative people tend to be less conservative because looking at the world in a more fluid way, traditional norms are something you want to break in creative stories. In general, being less realistic and more imaginative is gonna unconsciously make more more progressive in terms of views.
Couple that with the fact creative field tend to attract a diverse set of people. As a creator, you naturally make the product that appeals to you.
And as a creator, you naturally want to make a product that appeals to as many people as possible.
This causes a lot of artworks to be considered political if you look for it. Even when it's not even consciously political.
Even a basic ass decision, such a me making an indian main character - can be considered political to some, and will piss off someone for one reason or another.
In terms of politics, I think creative people tend to be less conservative because looking at the world in a more fluid way, traditional norms are something you want to break in creative stories. In general, being less realistic and more imaginative is gonna unconsciously make more more progressive in terms of views.
Couple that with the fact creative field tend to attract a diverse set of people. As a creator, you naturally make the product that appeals to you.
And as a creator, you naturally want to make a product that appeals to as many people as possible.
This causes a lot of artworks to be considered political if you look for it. Even when it's not even consciously political.
Even a basic ass decision, such a me making an indian main character - can be considered political to some, and will piss off someone for one reason or another.
Laieon
Member
I've played plenty of fun games, watched plenty of fun movies, and read plenty of fun books this year, last year, and every year I can remember. This seems more of a "you" issue.
Pejo
Member
Taste is subjective etc etc.
Having low standards also can help, not saying you do though, of course.
This topic is in the frame of games that are obvious politics bait, not games or entertainment in general.
Laieon
Member
Maybe, but I think painting creative people as being "less conservative" because they're "more imaginative" is a really weird way to paint it when you consider that conservatives tend to be more religious (ie: believe in imaginary entities) and willing to reject science and fact-based evidence (you don't get more realistic than that) when compared to liberals/progressives.
Edgelord79
Gold Member
It’s only a battle if you choose to fight. I am just enjoying games and don’t give these things the time of day.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Is having the option to choose your referenced gender in Starfield obvious political bait?
Pejo
Member
Yes? It was added for a very politically charged reason to pander to a very specific demographic that often causes lots of bemoaning both ways. Look at twitter and this very thread.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Really? There's lots of games that do that for a more customizable experience. It's an RPG. This feature is very benign.
How do you know it was added for that reason and not because it's an RPG with customizability options? As far as both ways bemoaning, it only seems like one way is bemoaning based on the video in the OP.
I'd rather not look at Twitter more than I have to, and getting mad over a nothingburger like this is the height of snowflakery.
Pejo
Member
So why not just have the option to make a male character and be referred as "he" or female charater and then you're a "she"? Why go the extra steps to make it interchangeable? Why not go a Monster Hunter route and go Body 1 and Body 2, then let you pick? Because once again it's pandering to a very specific demographic. Just because you're ducking your head in the sand and pretending it isn't doesn't make it true.
Projecting that i'm getting mad about this is pretty juvenile, honestly. I was just giving my opinion and discussing, same as anyone else.
Your argument here is in extremely bad faith.
Freelance Yakuza
Member
Interesting. I don't know a single person in real life who gets angry about pronouns. Everyone I've seen complaining about it are streamers.
Raonak
Banned
The difference is that religious people aren't creating the stories of their religion. Growing up in a religious household, alternate creative interpretations of god are actively discouraged. It's the difference between faith and imagination, because to religious people, they literally view god as real, their view of god comes straight from their religious stories and not as something that comes from their own imagination.
Not to say religious people aren't creative, because you can channel faith to works of art (songs and paintings)
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Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Because that doesn't have as many options and permutations as the way Starfield does it. If you're going with the "why not" line of reasoning, So why not just let Starfield give players the option to directly choose their referential pronouns? This is what makes English work.
You keep asserting this but you don't have any facts to back this up. Just your feelings. I prefer the former when constructing arguments.
Care to actually answer my question instead of dodging the question? If you can't answer it, that doesn't make your line of reasoning look very sound.
For one, I wasn't talking about you, nor did I single you out in the "getting mad" part. I was talking about the people online who are mad at this benign feature are exhibiting high levels of snowflakery. Therefore, I, who doesn't care about this customizability feature in a customizable RPG, am not going to get mad about it. Perhaps I'm not the one projecting here.
I have brought reasonable facts to the argument and have not made any assertions that are unsubstantiated. I also have a desire to communicate the issue honestly and have not made any disparaging assumptions towards you. This means that I am arguing in good faith. You, however, have accused me of being an ostrich while it is obvious that I am a cute and cuddly BDSM hamster.
Astral Dog
Member
This is like a new trend by these 'intelectuals' to judge videogames merely through a political view and claim they need to follow modern politics to a slavishly degree to be considered good products
Yes, as videogame storytelling evolved,more complex themes have been introduced some of them dealing with 'serious' topics like war, but videogames have been made with the intention of having a good time, and selling units , they are 100% products of capitalism they weren't created to incentive players to vote for a political party
What is the message of a Kirby game?Mario Bros is just about jumping on turtles ,Sonic had a few things i seen these weirdos latch on like dr .Robotnik but that is not really something the target audience will catch on or suppose to care about ,its irrelevant to their characters their business model centers on selling these games to kids
certain games like DmC rely on political themes and satire,its a critic of capitalism or something made by Capcom of all companies,it was so dumb even part of the audience disliked it
Anyways, its all part of their effort to politicize everything
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
They can only hijack it if you allow them to.
And by “they” I don’t mean one particular side either. Both sides cry equally and both are nauseating.
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Pejo
Member
I haven't played Starfield yet, so I can't argue about how they do it past what I've read in the various drama. What's more, I don't personally care about having pronouns in games, I will continue to just pick whatever matches my character and move on with my day. If you say that the character creator is done in such a way that this pronouns selector is required or makes sense within the confines of the system, I have to believe you.
Fair point. I don't have facts to back that up. I also am not ignorant of the general sentiments and hiring practices of the western game development community where perhaps the cooks making the soup are putting just a bit too many personal touches. But again, that is just a feeling, I don't have hiring documents and profiles on every developer working in the industry. Sometimes inference is necessary unless you plan on doing full 7 week audits on everything you make a message about in a videogame entertainment forum.
To address your question directly, I don't have a single shred of evidence. I guess this is called "going with your gut".
My apologies about that then, I felt that it was a dig at me trying to paint me as acting out of anger when I made my post.
MiguelItUp
Member
This is typically how I feel about it majority of the time, at least with the ones that get upset and tilted about anything. It generally feels like those affected are just looking for things to get upset about. It's so nice to just shrug it off, see passed it, not be affected by it, etc. It IS possible to still enjoy plenty of things without raging about something or somone's opinion, perspective, or view of something.
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Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Cool. All I'm saying is that the dude in the OP is massively overreacting, and that there really isn't any good reason to think that Starfield is obvious political bait aside from just feeling like it is, and I don't think that's enough. Not enough to throw that degree of a tantrum that British guy did.
cash_longfellow
Gold Member
“Why has political ideologues made a battlefield out of gaming?”
Simple…because DICE can’t do it
Simple…because DICE can’t do it
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