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dog$ · Aug 23, 2007

Firstly, the use and definition of the word "hardcore" tends to become so mutated in discussion that it's almost fruitless to base any debate around it. What makes something hardcore is generally different to each of us.

However, I've seen the word tossed around a few times and places where I have to stop and question what the basis behind it is. Nintendo invokes the word quite often to differentiate between the different games it provides, but also seems to have an extremely broad interpretation of what makes something hardcore.

PantherLotus said:
The fact that [SSBB] (and Zelda, Metroid, and Mario) is/are definitely geared towards hardcore audiences

I've read this many times before but I don't completely agree that it's a fact, nor do I believe that implying any of these games aren't "hardcore" means that they lack quality - quite the opposite.

Super Mario Galaxy is an excellent looking platformer. It's also a game which you predominantly do nothing other than move Mario from point A to B, or use simple means to eliminate or bypass obstacles that you encounter while doing so. By doing this, it becomes accessible to a wider audience. Is that good for the game's public perception? Sure. For sales? Just as likely. But I don't see how that - or anything else in SMG - makes the game "hardcore".

Smash Bros. Brawl is mostly similar in this regard. Yes, there are text lists full of things to do in SSBM, but I don't think it's wrong to say that SSBB is more accessible and intentionally not as complex as Virtua Fighter 5. Likewise, the Super Smash series probably wouldn't be as successful if it tried to be. Again, as long as all of this is true, how can SSBB still be considered a hardcore game?

I would call Half-Life 2 a hardcore FPS, but not Halo 2. I would call Devil May Cry 3 a hardcore action title, but not Heavenly Sword. I would call In The Groove 2 a hardcore rhythm game, but probably not Guitar Hero 2. I would call Persona 3 a hardcore RPG much sooner than I would Dragon Quest 8. I'd say Super Street Fighter II X is clearly more of a hardcore fighting game than the original Street Fighter II is.

I don't think there is a single cut and dry method to determine which side of the line each game falls - factors of challenge, presentation, content, and control should be individually considered. I'm going to suppose it's generally agreed that if a fighting game has 60 selectable characters and multiple selectable gameplay systems, or if a rhtyhm game has a few songs requiring you to play 2000 notes in two minutes, or a 2D shooter has more bullets on screen than there are hairs on your head, then it's a hardcore game. But how much is needed to make this distinction?

tldr recap - just because some PR guy says a game is "for hardcore gamers" doesn't make it true. What makes a game hardcore to you?

a Master Ninja · Aug 23, 2007

The moral of this topic will be that labels are meaningless and not important.

I'll play along, though. I like it when a game insults you for failing/choosing an easy difficulty.

dr3upmushroom · Aug 23, 2007

Blame it on Wii Fit...

Mistouze · Aug 23, 2007

Hardcore

Threi · Aug 23, 2007

a Master Ninja said:
The moral of this topic will be that labels are meaningless and not important.

.

why people even care about this foolishness is beyond me..

Kabuki Waq · Aug 23, 2007

these days its any game the requires skill, has Depth or has a decent control scheme.

HugBasket · Aug 23, 2007

You guys want to see my Twilight Princess montage?

DemDereNads · Aug 23, 2007

I use to hate the term hardcore & casual because the words were basically thrown around whenever something was popular yet message board warriors didn't necessarily like the game (IE: Madden, GTA, etc)

But now, since the "market expansion" there's a clear-cut line between the "new-gamers" and the traditional games.

So speaking from this point on... "hardcore" to me is the basic traditional type games, where games like Brain Training, Wii Sports, etc are for the "new-gamers"

In other words, "new-gamers" are the new casuals.

There's also another technique, where "traditional" games are being simplified so new-gamers can play games that have been around before the "market expansion."

Sorry for the lack of quotes.

Hammer24 · Aug 23, 2007

dog$ said:
When does a game become "for hardcore audiences"?

When its not selling.

PleoMax · Aug 23, 2007

For me it's hardcore when it has depth. Be it the gameplay, the world, the story.

Normaly casual games are pretty brain dead experiences, games you can play for 15 minutes each day.

theBishop · Aug 23, 2007

On fanboy messageboards, Nintendo fans used to decry "the casuals" who played mostly GTA and Madden, and maybe Hitman or some licensed movie-game a few times a year. It was clearly a term of derision.

Now, casual is anyone who doesn't play games, or maybe dabbles in internet Sodoku or something like that. These are the people Nintendo has been courting with the Touch Generations stuff and the explicitly Wii-branded games.

It seems to me that the difference is the old "casuals" are still gamers, and the new casuals by-and-large are not.

badcrumble · Aug 23, 2007

When it's very good in one or two specific ways and not so good in many other ways, rather than generally decent in most things. See: Shadow of the Colossus.

Also, when not many marketing dollars are spent on it.

ex0du5 · Aug 23, 2007

I don't know....but I agree with all of your comparisons.

Manmademan · Aug 23, 2007

In before the porn references

guise · Aug 23, 2007

Hardcore games = anything where you need to invest time and effort into learning the intricaces of gameplay. i.e. it is not at all pick up and play.

ksamedi · Aug 23, 2007

A game is hardcore when GAF likes it, its as simple as that.

Fragamemnon · Aug 23, 2007

However, I've seen the word tossed around a few times and places where I have to stop and question what the basis behind it is. Nintendo invokes the word quite often to differentiate between the different games it provides, but also seems to have an extremely broad interpretation of what makes something hardcore.

Nintendo, by necessity, has to have a broad interpretation of what makes a game hardcore in order to assert that they have/still make hardcore games. Zelda/Mario/Smash Brothers aren't hardcore titles-there's nothing in them that would prevent a novice from getting into the game without much fuss.

A good definition of a hardcore game is a game where previous knowledge and experience with the genre's base mechanics are a prerequisite to being able to understand the game's fundamental concepts in a reasonable amount of time. A novice can get into a hardcore game, but they will find the learning curve to be much more challenging than the experienced player.

wayward archer · Aug 23, 2007

SSBB, Zelda, Mario, Metroid kind of straddle the line between hardcore and casual.

Hardcore gaming is difficult to define. I'd say a general definition is that it has a tough learning curve, requires long play sessions to get anywhere, has lots of content to explore, secrets to find, and lots of things to do.

Casual games are ones you can hand a controller to someone who's never played, and gives satisfaction from as little as 5-10 minutes of play.

SSBB and Mario are more on the casual side of things... most people don't sit down with Mario and try to win every single time, they see how far they can get then turn it off when they get bored. SSBB... I mean, a 4 year old can play this game and do well against the average person. That ain't hardcore. I know there are 'higher' levels of play but it's designed to appeal to any level of play, unlike say Virtua Fighter.

Zelda and Metroid are closer to hardcore, but don't really have a steep learning curve and you can still get away with short-ish play sessions. You can load them up, search around for heart containers or energy tanks or some other secrets, then shut them off, or you can play for hours and try to make some serious progress.

Xater · Aug 23, 2007

Bulky Space Marines + Blood

Frester · Aug 23, 2007

When it's developed by Itagaki? I know a lot of people that complained about how hard Ninja Gaiden was, but I love(d) it.

Kafel · Aug 23, 2007

Prvt.Pegleg said:
You guys want to see my Twilight Princess montage?

Want me to show you my Pokemans ?

Splatt · Aug 23, 2007

When a game sells like poop (God Hand for example) then it's hardcore.

crbowen · Aug 23, 2007

Boobs and guns.

I personally think that games like Frogger, Pac Man, and Donkey Kong are the most "hardcore" titles out there, where you just use a D-Pad and maybe one button.

King of Kong proves this theory.

Sho_Nuff82 · Aug 23, 2007

I typically define hardcore as being difficult to master. Of course, a game can come with an easy, casual difficulty setting for beginners, and a much harder setting for hardcore gamers (see: Guitar Hero or DDR).

If a game never improves in complexity with the more time you put into it it's a good chance it's a casual game.

kurahadol · Aug 23, 2007

A lot of 2D fighters come into mind. A lot of the people in the arcade area seem to forget that they just started off on the game too and pretty much think "either you are good at the game, or you don't play the game" which is pretty much bullshit to me. Granted, not everyone is like this, but a large percentage is.

AKingNamedPaul · Aug 23, 2007

It means it takes a large amount of dedication and time to appreciate. The mainstream game is quick fun/put it down, and the hardcore game for example is something like Wow or Zelda.

lastendconductor · Aug 23, 2007

These are some of the key elements I think a game should have to be qualified as a game for the hardcore:
- Hard
- Deep gameplay mechanics
- Best played in long sessions
- Immersive
- Sequels or references to older games
- Competitive play

A game were two or more of those elements are strong is a game for hardcore audiences IMO. Examples: RPGs(deep gameplay, long sessions, immersive roles, sequels), 2d fighters(hard difficulty, competitive play, deep gameplay)
Examples of what does not qualify: Wii sports(easy, simple, short sessions, superfluous, light competition), Eye Toy(same as WS).
And whats a hardcore gamer? a young male who's been playing games since his childhood and still plays them a lot, and looks for that elements in his games.
That's how I see the subject, of course there are a lot of shades of gray but basically it boils down to this IMO.

toneroni · Aug 23, 2007

games for hardcore audiences:
doesn't sell well but have a strong loyal following, like clover studios, working design, ippon nicchi etc
games that aren't very "mainstream" i guess?

Awntawn · Aug 23, 2007

Pretty much whenever there's an aspect of it that makes it too intimidating for the average person to play. Too hard, too scary, too bloody, etc. F.E.A.R., D.M.C., Ninja Gaiden, Bioshock, these are hardcore games.

On the other hand, AAA titles are ones that a wide audience is capable of enjoying, yet also have the depth to cater to the hardcore audience. Zelda, Final Fantasy, Halo, etc.

By my book at least ;o

djtiesto · Aug 23, 2007

Fragamemnon said:
Nintendo, by necessity, has to have a broad interpretation of what makes a game hardcore in order to assert that they have/still make hardcore games. Zelda/Mario/Smash Brothers aren't hardcore titles-there's nothing in them that would prevent a novice from getting into the game without much fuss.

A good definition of a hardcore game is a game where previous knowledge and experience with the genre's base mechanics are a prerequisite to being able to understand the game's fundamental concepts in a reasonable amount of time. A novice can get into a hardcore game, but they will find the learning curve to be much more challenging than the experienced player.

I really like this definition... I'd go a bit further with it and say that hardcore games are usually an extension on a once casual genre, refined and added to until the point where the complexity and challenge shuts out a lot of the more casual fanbase. Shmups and 2D fighters being the best arcade/console examples of this.

Kabouter · Aug 23, 2007

What makes a game hardcore to you?

Me not caring about a game because it's annoyingly complex.

Yama · Aug 23, 2007

When exploits become standard play.

seb · Aug 23, 2007

Hardcoreness = is_on_wii ? 0 : (gaf_hypeness / number_of_sales);

jrricky · Aug 23, 2007

DKnight said:
These are some of the key elements I think a game should have to be qualified as a game for the hardcore:
- Hard
- Deep gameplay mechanics
- Best played in long sessions
- Immersive
- Sequels or references to older games
- Competitive play

A game were two or more of those elements are strong is a game for hardcore audiences IMO. Examples: RPGs(deep gameplay, long sessions, immersive roles, sequels), 2d fighters(hard difficulty, competitive play, deep gameplay)
Examples of what does not qualify: Wii sports(easy, simple, short sessions, superfluous, light competition), Eye Toy(same as WS).
And whats a hardcore gamer? a young male who's been playing games since his childhood and still plays them a lot, and looks for that elements in his games.
That's how I see the subject, of course there are a lot of shades of gray but basically it boils down to this IMO.

So Brain Training IS hardcore then: Hard, Competitive Play.

methane47 · Aug 23, 2007

HardCore game: a game that is deep and immersive and takes a longer time to fully enjoy but what you come away with is a long lasting footprint on your mind if it was good and a hateful, vengeful memory if disliked.

Casual game: a game that is shallow and can be picked up and enjoyed to the limits of its fun factor in a very short amount of time. Usually little to no story is involved. What you come away with is a memory of the fun you HAD while playing it if it was good, and no memory at all if it was bad unless you vested alot of emotion into the game before it was released and then it disappointed you.

So
Shadow of the Colossus: Hardcore: deep, long lasting memory of the game itself, takes a while before you really enjoy it

main Mario games: Casual: shallow, little to no story, pick up and enjoy right away, memory of the fun you had while playing

Guitar Hero: Casual: pick up and enjoy right away etc, no story etc;

Main Zelda games: HardCore: DEEP, long lasting memory of the game itself, takes a while before you enjoy it to its fullest but god dawg it sucks you in.

Endgegner · Aug 23, 2007

I think for Nintendo a Hardcore game is just every game that is not directly geared towards casuals.

As you stated yourself, the definition is to broad to really base a discussion on to, but I try to make some differernt definitions:

type a) the definition by nintendo (or some others company). Used mainly to differentiate normal gamer's games from non games/casual games

type b) a hardcore game could also be seen as a game which is very difficult to get started, for example turn based strategy games like the Panzer Games, really difficult action games like Ninja Gaiden or bullet hell shooters, which are difficult to get a grip of at first

type c) a hardcore game in the sense of competition. Games like Starcraft, UT, Halo, Smash Brothers... Big Tournaments for these games where real money is involved.

methane47 · Aug 23, 2007

jrricky said:
So Brain Training IS hardcore then: Hard, Competitive Play.

no. because there is no deep gameplay mechanics, there is no story, its best to play in short spurts rather than long binges. And the competitive play isn't really competitive as in SERIOUS gameplay ....

worldrunover · Aug 23, 2007

methane47 said:
HardCore game: a game that is deep and immersive and takes a longer time to fully enjoy but what you come away with is a long lasting footprint on your mind if it was good and a hateful, vengeful memory if disliked.

Casual game: a game that is shallow and can be picked up and enjoyed to the limits of its fun factor in a very short amount of time. Usually little to no story is involved. What you come away with is a memory of the fun you HAD while playing it if it was good, and no memory at all if it was bad unless you vested alot of emotion into the game before it was released and then it disappointed you.

So
Shadow of the Colossus: Hardcore: deep, long lasting memory of the game itself, takes a while before you really enjoy it

main Mario games: Casual: shallow, little to no story, pick up and enjoy right away, memory of the fun you had while playing

Guitar Hero: Casual: pick up and enjoy right away etc, no story etc;

Main Zelda games: HardCore: DEEP, long lasting memory of the game itself, takes a while before you enjoy it to its fullest but god dawg it sucks you in.

I think you can put "niche genres" under the hardcore umbrella. There are certain off-kilter RPGs or strat games that, frankly, casual gamers won't understand/buy/appreciate. Hell, most "hardcore" gamers might not even understand them. But they sell to that select group of gamers...

Vong_Assassin · Aug 23, 2007

DKnight said:
These are some of the key elements I think a game should have to be qualified as a game for the hardcore:
- Hard
- Deep gameplay mechanics
- Best played in long sessions
- Immersive
- Sequels or references to older games
- Competitive play

I like that description. I have a friend who has a PS3 and keeps claiming hardcore games are like Resistance: Fall of Man or Gears of War...nothing that would play on the Wii. So technically, any hardcore game for my friend is one that pushes the boundaries of graphical power, which I think is total BS.

lastendconductor · Aug 23, 2007

jrricky said:
So Brain Training IS hardcore then: Hard, Competitive Play.

No, it's so shallow in the other areas that is impossible for a hardcore gamer to enjoy it as a true game (hence the "non-game" adjective). It can be played by the hardcore in a hardcore fashion, I've seen my friends do it, but the illusion fades away in a couple of days.

dog$ · Aug 23, 2007

Threi said:
why people even care about this foolishness is beyond me..

If all the labels were dropped, that would be fine with me - I get no extra gratification in playing a game if more people call it "hardcore" than those who don't, nor do I write a game off solely if some arbitrary spokesperson or magazine doesn't apply the label as well.

The problem is that the term is used by everyone involved in this medium and is not going away any time soon. As already shown by the replies given so far, it's a term which doesn't hold a universal meaning. Therefore, its use can be disingenuous.

Sho_Nuff82 said:
see: Guitar Hero or DDR.

Guitar Hero is definitely an overall challenge, but I think it's mostly a mainstream music game. Most of the songs are publically known and the game itself doesn't have a lot of options to play with.

In comparison, DDR (or moreso with nearly any other Konami music game) presents a lot of music that is completely unfamiliar to everyone but its fans and is loaded with so many small gameplay tweaks and options (speed mods, arrow direction control, &c) that it makes itself unaccessible to some casual players.

The very first DDR could be considered a non-hardcore game, but the series isn't like that now.

Kabouter said:
Me not caring about a game because it's annoyingly complex.

Ultimately I suspect that this will essentially be most people's answer, but again, I think this supports my assertion that Nintendo's use of the word is not correct.

djtiesto said:
hardcore games are usually an extension on a once casual genre, refined and added to until the point where the complexity and challenge shuts out a lot of the more casual fanbase.

Vong_Assassin said:
any hardcore game for my friend is one that pushes the boundaries of graphical power, which I think is total BS.

Agreed on both counts.

krzy123 · Aug 23, 2007

this is a trick question ... there is no such thing

snacknuts · Aug 23, 2007

ksamedi said:
A game is hardcore when GAF likes it but no one else does, its as simple as that.

Fixed.

besada · Aug 23, 2007

There are no hardcore games, just hardcore players. SMB can be played by anyone but only the hardcore play the whole game on a isngle player, or know all the of the various warps. I'm not sure how you'd play Brain Training hardcore, but I'm sure there's a youtube video out there to show me. Guitar Hero is another great example. Easy to pick up and play, but anyone who beats Jordan on Expert deserves the title hardcore.

C4Lukins · Aug 23, 2007

Hardcore has come to represent, "anything that takes an IQ of 65 or higher to play." So Halo, GTA, Final Fantasy, Gran Turismo, Madden, all of the most popular games. I think even Zelda, Mario, and Pokemon are hardcore by todays standards.

lastendconductor · Aug 23, 2007

besada said:
There are no hardcore games, just hardcore players.

This is not true. While I agree with the rest of your post, it's a fact that there are lot of games that target only the hardcore demographic, hence they are hardcore games. Example: GODHAND.

Date of Lies · Aug 23, 2007

C4Lukins said:
Hardcore has come to represent, "anything that takes an IQ of 65 or higher to play." So Halo, GTA, Final Fantasy, Gran Turismo, Madden, all of the most popular games. I think even Zelda, Mario, and Pokemon are hardcore by todays standards.

:lol :lol ?

Halo: aim + shoot

GTA, for most people: do what the fuck you want

Final Fantasy, since IX: be young or dumb enough to enjoy the characters and story

Gran Turismo: race cars

Madden: american football

I don't exactly see how any of those require high IQ (although 65 is pretty low)

Examples of hardcore games? Godhand, Ninja Gaiden, Supreme Commander, Street Fighter 3rd Strike, F-Zero GX, Disgaea

Super Smash Bros is smack dab between hardcore and casual. It's Nintendo's philosophy: make it easy enough for casuals to get into, and deep enough for hardcore to continue playing. Halo is a bit like that too. That's why those games are popular. They're the type of games that convert casuals into hardcore.

But IQ isn't the main factor.

jrricky · Aug 23, 2007

methane47 said:
no. because there is no deep gameplay mechanics, there is no story, its best to play in short spurts rather than long binges. And the competitive play isn't really competitive as in SERIOUS gameplay ....

Hey, i was just following the original posters opinion, and i came up with brain training because it has 2 of those aspects.
And how do you distinguish "...competitive as in SERIOUS gameplay..."?

besada · Aug 23, 2007

DKnight said:
This is not true.

Yeah, but it sounded good

Endgegner · Aug 23, 2007

I think the problem is that there's a term missing for the "normal" gamer's game. Games like Mario, Halo, GTA and even more complex ones like Zelda (Zelda isn't as easy as a lot of people here think; to people who have rarely played any videogame, a game like TP would be extremly confusing) or MGS should be included.

Hardcore should be reserved for truly difficult or complex games; games where you only have real fun, if you master the game to a certain degree, like Virtua Fighter. DMC or difficult tactic games for the pc.

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