Support NeoGAF

markatisu · Apr 14, 2009

Searched but did not find, lock is old

They should adopt this policy for actual Wii games, now that would force someone to put effort into it :lol

http://wii.ign.com/articles/972/972642p1.html

GDC 09: Some WiiWare Devs Not Being Paid?
Before a dev gets a paycheck, its game needs to sell a certain amount.
by Daemon Hatfield

April 14, 2009 - At this year's Game Developers Conference a talk called Independent Game Sales revealed that Nintendo has a minimum download threshold for WiiWare games that must be met before the developer is paid. The speaker, Gamasutra publisher and Independent Game Festival chairman Simon Carless, said this number is somewhere in the mid-quadruple digits for America and low quadruples for other territories. Unless a game passes over this number of downloads, the developer doesn't get paid at all. Sources in the WiiWare development community have confirmed this information to IGN.

Carless estimated that multiple independent WiiWare games will not pass the threshold and not return any of the developer's investment. He also guessed that this threshold is in place to deter developers from tossing loads of shovelware onto the service. One developer, speaking anonymously, recently told IGN that this deterrent makes the threshold a good thing.

There have been two primary barriers for little-known games on WiiWare. Until recently, storage has been an issue on the Wii. This is now fixed as of last month, but another hurdle remains: WiiWare games don't offer any sort of trial, so gamers can't check them out first to see if they like them as they can on Xbox Live Arcade.

As of this writing, Nintendo could not be reached for comment. The company has not released any official information about the sales of WiiWare games. Carless has heard that Nintendo might be changing this minimum threshold policy so that developers can eventually cash a paycheck from WiiWare.

cw_sasuke · Apr 14, 2009

markatisu said:
They should adopt this policy for actual Wii games, now that would force someone to put effort into it :lol

.

Beer Monkey · Apr 14, 2009

I remember when people said Wiiware would be more friendly to indie devs than XBLA. This isn't very friendly.

I love Bit.Trip Beat, I hope it sold enough to make money for the devs.

Dabanton · Apr 14, 2009

I've never actually checked out Wiiware.

No trail demos? lol

gkryhewy · Apr 14, 2009

Lo, evil Nintendo and Microsoft BOTH smite the little guy. Only benevolent Sony treats everyone fairly out of kindness and a well-oriented sense of right!

[Nintex] · Apr 14, 2009

Zzoram · Apr 14, 2009

markatisu said:
They should adopt this policy for actual Wii games, now that would force someone to put effort into it :lol

Sales Reminder: Carnival Games (3mil) + Mario & Sonic at the Olympics (7mil) > All good 3rd party games combined

HK-47 · Apr 14, 2009

Pretty fucking bullshit. No doubt a bunch of valiant console warriors will defend it though.

I'm sure this is a lot easier than having quality assurance

TAJ · Apr 14, 2009

markatisu said:
They should adopt this policy for actual Wii games, now that would force someone to put effort into it :lol

Yeah, isn't it an odd coincidence that lazy developers only work on Wii games?

sixteen-bit · Apr 14, 2009

beermonkey@tehbias said:
I love Bit.Trip Beat, I hope it sold enough to make money for the devs.

I feel the same way.

GitarooMan · Apr 14, 2009

Makes no sense to me, because quality games can still sell like shit. It seems like Nintendo should just implement a modicum of quality control (same could be said of the Wii retail library)

Tiktaalik · Apr 14, 2009

WiiWare is a terrible deal and I don't know why anyone would go for it when alternatives such as Steam and the iPhone App store exist.

Gbeav · Apr 14, 2009

Quality standards are good.

(looks at e74 thread)

Flying_Phoenix · Apr 14, 2009

Article said:
At this year's Game Developers Conference a talk called Independent Game Sales revealed that Nintendo has a minimum download threshold for WiiWare games that must be met before the developer is paid. The speaker, Gamasutra publisher and Independent Game Festival chairman Simon Carless, said this number is somewhere in the mid-quadruple digits for America and low quadruples for other territories

Mid-quadruple digits and low quadruple digits?

Dementia · Apr 14, 2009

So basically, if your game only gets downloaded 4 thousand times at $5 a pop, Nintendo will make $20k and you don't get jack-shit?

That seems pretty unfair to any indie developers if their game doesn't really catch on... especially considering WiiWare doesn't allow any demos.

androvsky · Apr 14, 2009

Gbeav said:
Quality standards are good.

They sure are. Now if only Nintendo implemented some, they wouldn't need to do stupid stuff like not paying developers a dime unless their game sells a certain amount.

DeaconKnowledge · Apr 14, 2009

HK-47 said:
Pretty fucking bullshit. No doubt a bunch of valiant console warriors will defend it though.

I'm sure this is a lot easier than having quality assurance

Damned if you do, damned if you don't I suppose.

Flying_Phoenix · Apr 14, 2009

Tiktaalik said:
WiiWare is a terrible deal and I don't know why anyone would go for it when alternatives such as Steam and the iPhone App store exist.

Pretty much. With XBLA Microsoft eats the majority of your profits, with Wiiware you have to sell a certain amount in order to get paid, and I don't know much about PSN.

Honestly with the size limitations, lack of userbase, and tendency of low sales I'd do all my stuff on the PC. Far more success stories that you hear about their then on consoles.

titiklabingapat · Apr 14, 2009

Tiktaalik said:
WiiWare is a terrible deal and I don't know why anyone would go for it when alternatives such as Steam and the iPhone App store exist.

Do you work for Apple?

poppabk · Apr 14, 2009

Tiktaalik said:
WiiWare is a terrible deal and I don't know why anyone would go for it when alternatives such as Steam and the iPhone App store exist.

Because they can make money? Because they have a game that they want to sell to Wii owners? World of Goo sold roughly 60% of its copies through WiiWare while also being available on steam and through direct download and retail.
I mean it is the same reason that developers release games on consoles even though they get charged for the privilege when they can release on PC for free.

Flying_Phoenix · Apr 14, 2009

poppabk said:
Because they can make money? Because they have a game that they want to sell to Wii owners? World of Goo sold roughly 60% of its copies through WiiWare while also being available on steam and through direct download and retail.
I mean it is the same reason that developers release games on consoles even though they get charged for the privilege when they can release on PC for free.

Good point.

fatigues_gasolini · Apr 14, 2009

even if this helps root out shitty games, if a dev puts alot of time and effort into a game that doesnt click with its audience, they lose out.

Fantastical · Apr 14, 2009

Nintendo really needs to advertise WiiWare more. Nintendo says it's great for indie developers and then leaves them to die.

AstroLad · Apr 14, 2009

Yeah I was really quite surprised that Goo sold so much through WiiWare. Haven't bought anything on WiiWare myself yet.

Gaborn · Apr 14, 2009

This is completely fair but still not necessarily a smart business model. Just like any other business a product has to be profitable to make their developer money, that seems fair to me. The problem is just as art isn't necessarily profitable right away or at first this might discourage some unique or otherwise interesting efforts that won't catch on for a while because there's much less incentive to take that kind of risk. If that happens it could lead to greater homogeneity of the WiiWare's offerings.

Kintaro · Apr 14, 2009

titiklabingapat said:
Do you work for Apple?

No joke. It's pretty darned blatent now. :lol

Dabanton · Apr 14, 2009

Gbeav said:
Quality standards are good.

(looks at e74 thread)

Why bring that in here?

botticus · Apr 14, 2009

The thread title made me say duh, thankfully the content wasn't so silly.

I wonder if it's more to act as a deterrent for shitty games, or to ensure that Nintendo makes some minimum dollar amount.

overthehill99 · Apr 14, 2009

What do you expect? Nintendo needs all the money they can get. They are really struggling right now.

frankie_baby · Apr 14, 2009

if a game doesn't sell at least mid quadruple figures then it really aint making any money anyway

Flyguy · Apr 14, 2009

Gaborn said:
This is completely fair but still not necessarily a smart business model. Just like any other business a product has to be profitable to make their developer money, that seems fair to me. The problem is just as art isn't necessarily profitable right away or at first this might discourage some unique or otherwise interesting efforts that won't catch on for a while because there's much less incentive to take that kind of risk. If that happens it could lead to greater homogeneity of the WiiWare's offerings.

How is it fair to say to a dev, "unless your game sells more than xxxx units we're keeping 100% of the revenue." Which, if I'm reading this right, is precisely what Nintendo is saying.

Tiktaalik · Apr 14, 2009

Kintaro said:
No joke. It's pretty darned blatent now. :lol

:lol I think it's just a coincidence today. I work for a traditional console developer and I don't have any stake in any downloadable gaming platform.

From an indie perspective Wii Ware already seems like a risky deal to me, with no demos, having to be a "Nintendo developer", expensive testing hardware, QA and poor dev software. This extra bit of info is just another wall to turn away potential devs. It's a weird thing where on one hand Nintendo makes noises at GDC about wanting to open up gaming, but then they put up all sorts of walls so it's only really easy for people who are already Wii developers.

The exemplary Wii sales for Goo is a good counter example. Obviously you can do well if you're able to market yourself.

I really do fear for the DSi store though. The Wii Ware store has been mixed in my opinion.

bryehn · Apr 14, 2009

botticus said:
The thread title made me say duh, thankfully the content wasn't so silly.

I wonder if it's more to act as a deterrent for shitty games, or to ensure that Nintendo makes some minimum dollar amount.

I'd guess it's a profit thing because for every World of Goo or Toki Tori there's two Major League Eating, Niki - Rock 'n' Ball or Family Table Tennis calibre games that come out. Certainly no shortage of complete garbage compared to the (very) few worthwhile titles.

The fact that we get new garbage just about every week says that someone is buying at least 5000+ copies of these titles.

goldenticket · Apr 14, 2009

Tiktaalik said:
The exemplary Wii sales for Goo is a good counter example. Obviously you can do well if you're able to market yourself.

how much has world of goo on the wii sold?

itxaka · Apr 14, 2009

isn't community games the same? I remember reading about how do you get paid on it and it's was kind of like this?

Can someone correct me? I really can't remember if it's true or I am mixing things.

Zachack · Apr 14, 2009

Flying_Phoenix said:
Pretty much. With XBLA Microsoft eats the majority of your profits, with Wiiware you have to sell a certain amount in order to get paid, and I don't know much about PSN.

How much does MS eat in comparison to Nintendo?

isn't community games the same? I remember reading about how do you get paid on it and it's was kind of like this?

Can someone correct me? I really can't remember if it's true or I am mixing things.

No, that particular Community Games issue is that payments are on some sort of schedule, and no one got paid until March, but then everyone got paid. There was also a separate issue of MS taking more money if they promoted your game but so far MS has not elected to do so even if they did promote your game.

grandjedi6 · Apr 14, 2009

markatisu said:
They should adopt this policy for actual Wii games, now that would force someone to put effort into it :lol

I'm not sure you've noticed but sales does not equal quality. If anything this policy would kinda promote shovelware since thats the type of stuff that sells well on the Wii (or at least well enough to pass any threshold nintendo has here).

Flyguy · Apr 14, 2009

itxaka said:
isn't community games the same? I remember reading about how do you get paid on it and it's was kind of like this?

Can someone correct me? I really can't remember if it's true or I am mixing things.

Unless I'm mistaken, there's a 70/30 split in favor of devs for all CG, regardless if that game sells 1 unit or 1 million units. So no, it's nothing like this.

SilverLunar · Apr 14, 2009

I wonder how much "certain amount" is... 5000? 10000?
But this is wrong, quality control or not, what if World of Goo never catch on??

Originally Posted by AstroLad

Yeah I was really quite surprised that Goo sold so much through WiiWare. Haven't bought anything on WiiWare myself yet.

I got three messages from Nintendo on my Wii telling me to buy the game(even though i got it already), they never did this to any game on the service.

Neomoto · Apr 14, 2009

frankie_baby said:
if a game doesn't sell at least mid quadruple figures then it really aint making any money anyway

Seriously. "Mid quadruple" numbers is next to nothing, unless a game utterly and totally bombs. Wii's (online) userbase is enormous. And even then they can probably change the price (?)

Stink · Apr 14, 2009

Another thread where people think first parties are charities.

Drkirby · Apr 14, 2009

So, they have to sell like 8000 copies to get paid? For any game of any Marriott, that shouldn't be to hard to get.

Also, with XNA, you have to make $150 before they pay you. While thats a much lower 25-100ish copies, you still have to sell so many before they will pay you.

AstroLad · Apr 14, 2009

SilverLunar said:
I got three messages from Nintendo on my Wii telling me to buy the game(even though i got it already), they never did this to any game on the service.

Most of all I couldn't believe it outsold the Steam version by that much. Seems like often I hear Steam numbers and they're not as impressive as I presume though (e.g., Relic saying they had sold almost as much of CoH over Steam as at Best Buy). I got it on Steam fwiw.

poppabk · Apr 14, 2009

So do Nintendo keep the first 20k or so regardless? I mean if you sell 4999 copies you get nothing you sell 5000 copies you get 70% of 20k seems completely unfair. I guess how much this sucks depends on
a) how much a quality niche game can expect to sell on WiiWare
and
b) what the profit sharing is like above that threshold
Personally I think it would be better to have a scheme where you get say 20% of the first 5000 sales then 70% of anything after that, at least mitigate some of the risk involved in creating an experimental title.

cw_sasuke · Apr 14, 2009

Tiktaalik said:
:lol I think it's just a coincidence today. I work for a traditional console developer and I don't have any stake in any downloadable gaming platform.

From an indie perspective Wii Ware already seems like a risky deal to me, with no demos, having to be a "Nintendo developer", expensive testing hardware, QA and poor dev software. This extra bit of info is just another wall to turn away potential devs. It's a weird thing where on one hand Nintendo makes noises at GDC about wanting to open up gaming, but then they put up all sorts of walls so it's only really easy for people who are already Wii developers.

The exemplary Wii sales for Goo is a good counter example. Obviously you can do well if you're able to market yourself.

I really do fear for the DSi store though. The Wii Ware store has been mixed in my opinion.

Still u got a fast-growing potential userbase on wii, can`t argue with that.....

Tiktaalik · Apr 14, 2009

goldenticket said:
how much has world of goo on the wii sold?

At GDC the developer mentioned that 60% of sales came from the Wii, though he also noted that sales from Steam had risen in 2009 (possibly because there was a sale recently). I don't think he revealed differences in profit breakdown between platforms.

He also broke down some investments:
$4,000 on hardware,
$1,000 on software,
$5,000 on QA testing,
$5,000 for localization,
$5,000 on legal fees.

SaggyMonkey · Apr 14, 2009

[Nintex] said:

Something seems wrong with that picture... no chattering... no money spitting

Jokeropia · Apr 14, 2009

grandjedi6 said:
I'm not sure you've noticed but sales does not equal quality. If anything this policy would kinda promote shovelware since thats the type of stuff that sells well on the Wii (or at least well enough to pass any threshold nintendo has here).

Well actually, the games that fail to even reach 5k or 10k are almost exclusively shovelware.

Flying_Phoenix · Apr 14, 2009

Zachack said:
How much does MS eat in comparison to Nintendo?

This.

The article was updated because lately a developer has recently stated that Microsoft has or is turning a new leaf. There was a thread on this a while ago.

Gaborn · Apr 14, 2009

Flyguy said:
How is it fair to say to a dev, "unless your game sells more than xxxx units we're keeping 100% of the revenue." Which, if I'm reading this right, is precisely what Nintendo is saying.

Because it's Nintendo's platform and they choose the terms to develop for it? If someone doesn't want to deal with them they don't have to? Nintendo isn't the only game in town afterall.

Support NeoGAF

WiiWare developers only get paid if game sells

Member

If all DLC came tied to $13 figurines, I'd consider all DLC to be free

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future

Banned

Member

Death Prophet

Hail to the KING baby

Member

Worships the porcelain goddess

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Defeatist

Member

Master of the Google Search

Member

Member

Member

Member

Corporate Apologist

Hail to the KING baby

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future

If all DLC came tied to $13 figurines, I'd consider all DLC to be free

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Similar threads