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Develop 2010 | Reasons why some publishers turned down 'Joe Danger'

P

Pooya

Member
develop-online
Develop 2010: Attendees bemused by reasons why the popular PSN title fell at early hurdles

Hello Games took to the stage at the Develop Conference today to exact revenge on the publishers that turned down the Joe Danger project.

Sean Murray, a programmer at the studio, revealed that Joe Danger sold 50,000 copies in its first week on the PlayStation Network. Yet Hello Games struggled to convince publishers that the title would work.

Without naming any names, Murray went through a list of reasons why the game was turned down, quoting what he had heard from various publishers in meetings. Attendees at the Develop session broke into laughter.

The list, as quoted by Murray, can be found below:

“Name me one popular game with motorbikes?”


”Collecting giant coins feels unrealistic to me”

”I can see this working as a Facebook app”

”We want games that are less about fun right now”

”We love the theme, but with a different game”

”We believe the iPhone will be largely unsupported”

”Can Joe be a monkey? We like Monkeys”
Click to expand...

Also some sales data from XBLA

Sean Murray, a programmer at Hello Games, said during his lecture that 31 per cent of XBLA titles are what he deems as ‘casual’ – yet, he said, such games account for less than five per cent of the total market.

Murray, speaking at a lecture entitled ‘Five Big Things Publishers Don’t Understand About Small Games’, had little praise for casual games which have spread across digital networks.

”They’re cheap to make, they’re easier to make... nobody is buying them really,” he said.
Article continues below


Murray described the contrast between XBLA store presence and sales as ‘The Uno Effect’ – explaining that the digital version of the classic card game was the first title to sell over a million copies on XBLA.

He suggested that the sheer popularity of Uno had encouraged publishers to throw more classic casual games, such as Sudoku titles, into the digital market. Yet he claimed, the popularity of Uno was a red-herring.

”The reason for the Uno effect,” he said, “was that it was given away for free with the Xbox 360 Arcade [SKU], and then grew via word-of-mouth.”

Other data he presented seemed to suggest that 47 per cent of XBLA games don’t sell beyond 25,000 copies, while 17 per cent sell over 200,000.
Click to expand...
 
V

V_Ben

Banned
thats some pretty fascinating stuff, and a sad thing about XBLA.

Edit: And those publisher comments are completely ridiculous :lol
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
There's also some other interesting XBLA sales data.

GamesIndustry.biz said:
Hello Games chose to release Joe Danger via Sony's PlayStation Network because the team regarded Microsoft's Xbox Live Arcade as a "slaughterhouse" for small developers.

Speaking at the Develop Conference in Brighton today, Hello Games' Sean Murray said that while the top ten titles on XBLA sell very well and have high profiles amongst consumers, a significant proportion of games sell less than 25,000 units on the service, and quickly disappear after release.

"Why choose PSN? It was the only way we could self-publish," said Murray. " XBLA is kind of a slaughterhouse for smaller developers. There are games that do amazingly well. But there's two titles released every week and a lot of those are falling in that 25,000 or less category."

Murray's session included his own stats collated from Xbox Live Arcade, which he presented with the caveat that there were not official figures, but he believed them to be realistic.

Of titles on XBLA that were self-published without the assistance of third-parties, Murray claimed 47 per cent sold less than 25,000 copies, 23 per cent sold around 100,000 copies, 13 per cent 200,000 copies and 17 per cent more than 200,000.

Murray revealed that Joe Danger broke-even on its first day of release on PSN and sold 50,000 copies in its first week.

Console services are ripe opportunities for independent developers, said Murray, as big third-party publishers regard them as "the ginger step-child" of the digital downloads market and are not willing to experiment with releasing creative games in the space.

"It's not to say publishers are shit, but small studios are amazing in this space," stressed Murray.

He also revealed some of the knock back statements Hello Games received from early talks with publishers for Joe Danger, including: "Name me one popular game with motorbikes", "we want games that are less about fun right now" and "can Joe be a monkey? We like monkeys".

Finally, he wouldn't discuss the next project from the four-man team, but said that if the company can double, "what we could do with eight people could be fucking amazing, basically."
Click to expand...
Source: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/xbla-is-a-slaughter-house-for-smaller-developers
 
Haunted

Haunted

Member
“Name me one popular game with motorbikes?”

”Collecting giant coins feels unrealistic to me”

”I can see this working as a Facebook app”

”We want games that are less about fun right now”

”We love the theme, but with a different game”

”We believe the iPhone will be largely unsupported”

”Can Joe be a monkey? We like Monkeys”
Click to expand...
Yeah, that sounds about right.
 
intheinbetween

intheinbetween

Member
Of titles on XBLA that were self-published without the assistance of third-parties, Murray claimed 47 per cent sold less than 25,000 copies, 23 per cent sold around 100,000 copies, 13 per cent 200,000 copies and 17 per cent more than 200,000.
Click to expand...

Indie games?
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
This slide has a little more detail (from: http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2010/07/13/joe-danger-breaks-even/):

joeeven.jpg


I'm not sure what '100% x 10 ROI' means exactly, but it sounds good. Congrats to them.
 
S

szaromir

Banned
So after Trials' spectacular success they had problems with convincing publishers to a somewhat similar game? That's astounding.
 
V

V_Ben

Banned
gofreak said:
Yes, but what does '100% x 10' mean? 1000% ROI? Why not just say that? :p
Click to expand...

because... ah f*ck it, I don't know. Maybe it sounds cooler if they say it that way. :lol
 
R

REMEMBER CITADEL

Banned
Murray's session included his own stats collated from Xbox Live Arcade, which he presented with the caveat that there were not official figures, but he believed them to be realistic.

Of titles on XBLA that were self-published without the assistance of third-parties, Murray claimed 47 per cent sold less than 25,000 copies, 23 per cent sold around 100,000 copies, 13 per cent 200,000 copies and 17 per cent more than 200,000.
Click to expand...

What percentage of XBLA games were self-published? And when? I thought Microsoft doesn't allow self-publishing on XBLA anymore?
 
C

CTLance

Member
:lol

Seriously, those publisher quotes.... :lol

”We want games that are less about fun right now”

:lol :lol :lol
 
DryvBy

DryvBy

Member
I'm not against corporations and them not wanting to lose money, but if you're helping fund games and don't want games that are "fun", then you're in the WRONG business.
 
2

2San

Member
Small dev with new IP gets rejected, because they don't see potential in the project. Nothing weird about that. Wouldn't take the reasons to heart either, sometimes they just don't feel like explaining the real reason. It's easy to talk in hindsight.
 
ULTROS!

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
”We want games that are less about fun right now”
Click to expand...

We play games not to have fun? What?
 
G

Gravijah

Member
Holy shit I missed this

”We want games that are less about fun right now”
Click to expand...

Did someone just say this? Did someone just really fucking say this? This is what is wrong with our fucking industry, summed up right in a goddamn bite sized sentence.
 
J

Joseph Merrick

Member
DryvBy2 said:
I'm not against corporations and them not wanting to lose money, but if you're helping fund games and don't want games that are "fun", then you're in the WRONG business.
Click to expand...
maybe we're on the threshold of a huge resurgence for simulators and hardcore strategy :O~~
 
G

Gravijah

Member
Joseph Merrick said:
maybe we're on the threshold of a huge resurgence for simulators and hardcore strategy :O~~
Click to expand...

Wouldn't you say the people who play simulators/strategy games are having fun, though? I mean that's the thing. Gaming is about fun, even with games like that.
 
P

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Gravijah said:
Holy shit I missed this

”We want games that are less about fun right now”
Click to expand...

Did someone just say this? Did someone just really fucking say this? This is what is wrong with our fucking industry, summed up right in a goddamn bite sized sentence.
Click to expand...

I believe that could be a quote by the people who greenlit Sonic 2006 as fit for sale.
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Murray's session included his own stats collated from Xbox Live Arcade, which he presented with the caveat that there were not official figures, but he believed them to be realistic.
Click to expand...

... so, uh, are they leaderboard entries or ZGZHARTZ?
 
DryvBy

DryvBy

Member
Joseph Merrick said:
maybe we're on the threshold of a huge resurgence for simulators and hardcore strategy :O~~
Click to expand...

Lol. I'm thinking this company maybe EA Games / Maxis. They must be in the mood for a SPORE 2 or something.
 
I

itxaka

Defeatist
wow if that figure are near truth. 53% of the games self publised sold around 100k or more copies. W.O.W.

And congrats on Joe Danger, got it the other day and it's pretty fun. Still it cost me a lot to get it because of the price. 13€ is quite a lot for a downloadable game, but after playing it, its worth.
 
M

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
REMEMBER CITADEL said:
What percentage of XBLA games were self-published? And when? I thought Microsoft doesn't allow self-publishing on XBLA anymore?
Click to expand...

According to Microsoft, developers can't and have never been able to self publish. If they allow a developer to release their title on XBLA, they consider themselves the publisher, even if they don't provide any funding, contribute nothing to development, and don't do anything other than the minimum standard promotion.

In practical terms, having Microsoft "publish" your title on XBLA is the same as self publishing on PS3, though the logistics of approvals definitely distinguish the 2 platforms.
 
V

Vinterbird

Member
”We want games that are less about fun right now”

Whatever publisher that said that is now my favorite publisher in the industry.
 
J

Joseph Merrick

Member
Gravijah said:
Wouldn't you say the people who play simulators/strategy games are having fun, though? I mean that's the thing. Gaming is about fun, even with games like that.
Click to expand...
the meaning of fun there is definitely, jizz in my pants style, breeze comes in through the window and you're having fun
 
P

Princess Skittles

Prince's's 'Skittle's
Ugh, I haven't played Joe Danger but this just makes me depressed.

Bring on more shooters and zombie games, you creatively bankrupt assholes.

Just flood the market so it crashes again and creative shit can shine once more.
 
S

Sho_Nuff82

Member
itxaka said:
wow if that figure are near truth. 53% of the games self publised sold around 100k or more copies. W.O.W.

And congrats on Joe Danger, got it the other day and it's pretty fun. Still it cost me a lot to get it because of the price. 13€ is quite a lot for a downloadable game, but after playing it, its worth.
Click to expand...
When you put the stats like that it doesn't sound nearly as sensationalistic though.
 
R

REMEMBER CITADEL

Banned
Mario said:
According to Microsoft, developers can't and have never been able to self publish. If they allow a developer to release their title on XBLA, they consider themselves the publisher, even if they don't provide any funding, contribute nothing to development, and don't do anything other than the minimum standard promotion.

In practical terms, having Microsoft "publish" your title on XBLA is the same as self publishing on PS3, though the logistics of approvals definitely distinguish the 2 platforms.
Click to expand...

Hm, that's kind of a strange definition of self-publishing. I wonder if it's the same definition he was using.


itxaka said:
wow if that figure are near truth. 53% of the games self publised sold around 100k or more copies. W.O.W.
Click to expand...

Now that you mention it, aren't those numbers a little strange? If 47 per cent sold less than 25,000 copies, 23 per cent sold around 100,000 copies, 13 per cent 200,000 copies and 17 per cent more than 200,000, that covers the whole 100%. Did no game sell between 25,000 and 100,000?
 
A

ampere

Member
gofreak said:
This slide has a little more detail (from: http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2010/07/13/joe-danger-breaks-even/):

http://www.thesixthaxis.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/joeeven.jpg[IMG]

I'm not sure what '100% x 10 ROI' means exactly, but it sounds good. Congrats to them.[/QUOTE]
Wow. That's fantastic. Now that I have my PS3 at my reach again I really need to check this game out.

Some of those quotes are awesome

[QUOTE]”We want games that are [B]less about fun[/B] right now”

”Can Joe be a monkey? We like Monkeys”[/QUOTE]
:lol :lol
Less about fun, more about addiction and DLC!
Monkeys!!!!!
Click to expand...
 
I

itxaka

Defeatist
REMEMBER CITADEL said:
Hm, that's kind of a strange definition of self-publishing. I wonder if it's the same definition he was using.




Now that you mention it, aren't those numbers a little strange? If 47 per cent sold less than 25,000 copies, 23 per cent sold around 100,000 copies, 13 per cent 200,000 copies and 17 per cent more than 200,000, that covers the whole 100%. Did no game sell between 25,000 and 100,000?
Click to expand...


Actually yes, that is quite strange. Maybe they meant 23% up to 100k?
 
R

Rlan

Member
Nirolak said:
My guess would be that they're Gamerbyte's data based on leaderboards.
Click to expand...

You would be correct, or at least partially -- I imagine they collected their own as well. There are several developers around areas with a lot of small devs that tend to share information with each other.

But yeah -- I've got my data set up for a big list of XBLA games over the past 6 months as well as the past 3 for PSN titles, but I don't have the article written up. I let the Hello Games guys get a peek of what I have in terms of data :)
 
Z

Zeona

Neo Member
iconoclast said:
If Joe Danger were a monkey, I would buy this game.
Click to expand...

you sure there would not be too much fun left? they should get rid of that, too, then it would be a GOTY contender!
 
J

Jiguryo

Aryan mech phallus gun
If I worked at Hello Games, I'd release a free DLC with a playable monkey. And just for the hell of it, I'd name him Jojo Danger, the hero's simian sidekick.

Take that, monkey-loving publisher!

EDIT: Glass Soldier and I were in the same wavelength here, heheheh
 
K

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Those quotes make me go :lol :lol :lol :lol at the people in every sales thread who snarl that none of us poor civilian pee-ons has the right to criticize the business strategy of the mighty game publishers. After all, if you work at a game company you must have a piece of paper on the wall or something that says you're a certified business genius who knows more than anyone else :lol

Those certified business geniuses are why the industry loses so much money on so much junk that doesn't sell, or takes stuff that could have sold and utterly screws it over :lol
 
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