• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Discussion: What happens when PS3/360 active userbase begins to decline?

Opiate

Member
For those who are unaware, "active userbase" is a concept referring not to the total number of people who own a console, but the number who own it and are actively buying games for it. The PS2, for example, sells far less software than the PS3 does, despite having almost 4x the userbase, because that userbase is no longer very active. In turn, the Wii has had a steeply declining active user base, as original owners get bored of the system and move on to other entertainment options.

I would like to propose that this will also happen for the PS3 and 360. I think it likely would have happened already, but developers are doing an excellent job of keeping these bodies floating longer than is typical by simply pumping so much money and development talent at them. Eventually, however, people will become bored of the PS3 and 360, and move on to other options: perhaps new game platforms (PC, 3DS, iOS, new Nintendo system, Facebook), or to new hobbies altogether while they wait for something interesting to catch their interest in gaming again.

First, I'd like to discuss whether people think this will actually occur, or if we think that interest in PS3 and 360 gaming can be sustained indefinitely. I'd argue that's extremely implausible -- you're essentially arguing that people will never get bored of PS3/360 games -- but the point of this thread is to broker discussion, so if someone has a good counter argument for a powerful historical trend, I'm willing to listen.

Second -- and this is the heart of the discussion -- if/when this does happen, what will third parties do? They can't be happy about a new generation, as that will increase costs again significantly. At the same time, you can't stay in this generation if revenues are beginning to decline in a high cost industry.

I think we'll begin to see the tip of this problem in late 2011 / early 2012, when PS3/360 stop showing YoY growth in software (although this date, too, is completely open to discussion). It seems like a very significant problem that I've seen very few people talk about, perhaps because the problem seems so inevitable and so unsolvable that nobody wants to think about it. Or perhaps I'm overlooking something obvious and important.

Discuss!
 

Feep

Banned
I don't think it's a "solvable" problem, merely a consequence of an extended generation. I think Xbox 360 will fare better than PS3, due to the much more successful Kinect platform.

What's going to happen? Boost in PC gaming/Steam. Done.
 
Super Wii releasing Q1 2012 + new systems from Sony / MS whenever they think the old ones are going to run out. If 2011 shows the active userbase declining, they will accelerate their launch plans for the next generation. Conversely, if they don't, then they are going to delay their launch plans.
 

alr1ght

bish gets all the credit :)
They'll start to drop in 2 years when next-gen consoles come out. Pubs will have to actually budget their games reasonably.
 

Chrange

Banned
szaromir said:
Price cuts?

Bingo. 360 hasn't had a real price cut in years.

It's hard to gauge active userbase with the addition of things like Netflix. Someone might be using their PS3/360 every day, but haven't played a game in months. Where do you rank them from a company perspective?

I think online play and interaction will help keep user interest higher longer than past generations, in addition to refreshes like the 360 has had with the dashboard and even boot sequence changing mid-life, but it's inevitable that they start to feel stale.

Third parties will probably start to rely more on DLC to pull revenue from those customers that remain, and take more chances on relatively low-cost titles and new IP with the potential to be that breakout hit everyone wants.
 

Dennis

Banned
At the risk of stating the obvious: thats when the platform holders will try to get their new consoles out and publishers/developers starts shifting focus to the new hardware.

About pricecuts: sure, but at some point one of them will launch a new console to get a head start. Without a head start the 360 would me much less succesful. The hardcore was ready for new tech at that point.
 

Opiate

Member
alr1ghtstart said:
They'll start to drop in 2 years when next-gen consoles come out. Pubs will have to actually budget their games reasonably.

This is one of the discussions I wanted to have here, because I disagree.

I think people will get bored and move on, whether a new generation happens or not. I think new generations occur because people get bored of the old, not the other way around.

Put more directly: even if Sony and Microsoft did not plan to release a platform for 10 more years, their active userbase and would get bored and move on regardless. Publishers can try and stem the tide by putting such enormous emphasis on the PS3/360 (these two platforms get an almost grotesque share of the budget from major Publishers), but I strongly doubt that they can essentially maintain interest forever without providing something new and fresh to get people interested again.
 

Painraze

Unconfirmed Member
I can easily see Nintendo coming out on top next generation. 2012 would be a perfect year to release an HD console that features yet another new control scheme, a great downloadable service (they're slowly learning), and Mario in glorious 1080p.

Personally I'm starting to get bored of this generation. Besides Uncharted 3, Ico Trilogy and Skyrim I'm not really looking forward to anything coming out. I'm ready for HD Nintendo I think... enough of the Wii shit.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
Will it happen? Absolutely.

What will the industry do when it happens, in the face of exponentially increasing development costs as we look to "next-gen"? There will have to be a paradigm shift or we risk a market crash. Right now companies need to one-up the last Big Thing or the hype cycle fails and perceptions skew negative. If you look to PC gaming, PCs continue to advance but since copious amounts of money isn't being thrown at AAA oneupmanship perceptions of what constitutes a worthy product have been changing. PC development is shifting to be about finding your audience and leveraging your unique ideas to cater to that audience in a sustainable way, or lower budget experimental projects attempting to develop new types of audiences, rather than trying to sell a massively budgeted lowest common denominator product catering to the widest possible audience.

That can happen on consoles too, but first consoles need more viable price points than $60 or XBLA. That's facilitated almost entirely through digital distribution, but console gamers appear to be quite wary of how console manufacturers and publishers want to handle an internet-driven content delivery model on consoles.

Finding an attractive solution and the right timing for mainstream console digital distro will be the sticking point going forward. Unfortunately Japanese companies seem to have an archaic perspective on the internet, and Microsoft seems to enjoy short-sighted business practices over long-term market development (see: XBLA/GFWL compared to Steam).
 

StuBurns

Banned
More dreaming that the console people are flocking to PC and consoles are doomed. No, nothing is going to happen. People will play these consoles till the next consoles come.
 

Opiate

Member
Okay, I can clearly see that many people think that these platforms can be sustained indefinitely if no new consoles are released.

I strongly disagree. People will get bored and move on even if Sony came out tomorrow and said "the PS3 will be our primary platform forever, we will never replace it."

Look at the PS2, as an example. The system was declining well before the PS3 was released: the PS3 was released because the PS2 was declining, not the other way around. Obviously the PS3 then further hastened the PS2's demise, but I'm arguing that the PS2 would have died regardless.

I think by mid 2012, even if no one has announced a new home system, we'll start seeing YoY aggregate revenue declines. Even with system price cuts. People get bored and stop playing, and you can't replace the abandoned users with new users fast enough.

More dreaming that the console people are flocking to PC and consoles are doomed. No, nothing is going to happen. People will play these consoles till the next consoles come.

Okay, just to make this absolutely clear: this isn't what I'm saying. I'll emphasize this one more time -- people get bored. Even if no other system of any kind was ever released (not just PS4/720, but no new Wii, no new portables, no new phones, no new PC hardware), people would eventually stop playing their PS3s and 360s and find other things to do, because most of what the PS3 and 360 are capable of has already been tapped. I don't just mean that technologically, I mean that conceptually.

It does not mean they will flock to the PC. It could mean they flock to Sports, or Poker, or Social Networking. They can go anywhere. The point is, people get bored and move on, and eventually you can't replace the old users with new users fast enough. When that happens, less games are sold and revenue declines.
 

Rainier

Member
But just when people start getting bored, Microsoft and Sony start to generate profit from their hardware. I think the desire to make up for past losses earlier in this generation will keep the current systems on the market longer than maybe gamers want.
 
It's pretty much a given that interest will start to wane and the active userbases will decline. It's inevitable. Software sales can help us to gauge this more easily, but with NPD not really giving out software numbers anymore, that makes it all the more harder. We do, however, still receive software percentage gains/losses each month when NPD does release information, so that's probably the best gauge we have. Speaking for myself, I rarely ever play anything on ps3 anymore. I game mostly on 360 but my time with that is less now as well. This year, I'll spend way more time playing pc games than console games.
 

GraveRobberX

Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
I think 360 and PS3 did a good job keeping their core base happy

When the next generation console arrives they better damn well make sure accounts carry over, or whoever doesn't will take a mighty hit in the pocketbook for the new console and the old (current) cause people wouldn't get to carry over and others on the fence would give up if there's no point if continuing in the future they can keep moving ahead

They tied games, licenses, demos etc. to your account and cause of that players keep coming back

Trophies/Achievements for a lot of gamers (me including) do add an extra incentive, and in turn PS3 & 360 have a hook, almost a rat race in a maze, but every time you get close to the finish line, a wall is removed and a new part of the Maze is opened to traverse, repeat cycle

The current HD consoles have added so many features, it really is hard that one of them doesn't carry a mainstream feature
 
Opiate said:
Okay, I can clearly see that many people think that these platforms can be sustained indefinitely if no new consoles are released.

I strongly disagree. People will get bored and move on even if Sony came out tomorrow and said "the PS3 will be our primary platform forever, we will never replace it."

Look at the PS2, as an example. The system was declining well before the PS3 was released: the PS3 was released because the PS2 was declining, not the other way around. Obviously the PS3 then further hastened the PS2's demise, but I'm arguing that the PS2 would have died regardless.

I think by mid 2012, even if no one has announced a new home system, we'll start seeing YoY aggregate revenue declines. Even with system price cuts. People get bored and stop playing, and you can't replace the abandoned users with new users fast enough.
Tis the nature of the industry
People lose interest, and thus new hardware is released - in this case, PS4/XBOX3

I did write a longer reply but GAF has gone to shit with errors lately so it was lost
 
People will not get bored until there are other home console alternatives; they will not get bored until studios stop pumping out good games, and they'll keep pumping out good games until there's money to be made in that market. It's a self-preserving mechanism that needs a strong outside influence to start slowing down. That's going to come from platform holders because as soon as sales of current gen hardware start stagnating or declining (because of market saturation), they will start talking about next gen machines.

Maybe you think current home console owners will start migrating to PC and handhelds in large enough quantities for that to happen even with no next-gen home consoles on the horizon. I don't. There's some overlap, but for the most part, those are not the same audiences. In the west, at least.

EDIT: Actually, that's a bit oversimplified and people would start losing interest eventually, but the point is, platform holders will decide to move on before that happens on its own.
 
This looks the topic I really wanted to talk about in the PC developer thread, so this is great.

Right so, the indefinite console span isn't going to happen or at least it certainly won't happen this generation. I think if you asked me around E3 last year I probably would have said another three year lifespan for this generation. This is keeping in mind that Sony and Microsoft were essentially gearing up new platforms with the Move and Kinect so it would seem logically like a delay in a new generation would be inevitable. In order to make money on those things you need to sell a lot of games and so you need to create an audience for them, which of course takes time. I'm not sure what they were expecting adoption rate to be--10%?--but certainly it would need time.

Now I'm more keen to say around 2-3 years, but most likely on the lower end because of the type of games that we've seen come out for both systems don't seem to be sustainable. Kinect, by nature of the hardware, has a library that is forced to be unique, but Sony's Move strategy has been mostly tagging on the functionality to older games or older style of games we've already seen (from Heavy Rain to Killzone 3 and Socom 4) rather than creating a new experience. Frankly, I'm fine with this, but my expectation is that because its a "more of the same" from what we get on the Wii, it won't be sustainable over as long a period of time because that newness factor has been cut with the Wii. I mean,its basically a much better Wii Remote.

That said, Sony is in a bad position for a next generation as their current console is still absurdly expensive in comparative terms to previous years. So for them, they are still going to hope for as long as possible. Microsoft is in a comparatively better position because their console is priced competitively with Sony's and they can just drop the price whenever Sony does. But also for that reason I think Microsoft is the company that is going to be inevitably initiating the next console wars once 360's userbase becomes stagnate. It's a really fortunate position to be in. And I think that the fact that Microsoft's "core" games have been drying up is a really telling sign that by now they've locked their hardware for the next-generation and are preparing themselves for maybe one more holiday before next E3 (2012) when they announce their console.

As for 3rd parties, I think we're going to get a lot of developers resisting the new generation's arrival to the point that I'd be surprised if they haven't put a lot of pressure on Microsoft and Sony to delay a hardware lock on their consoles. Certainly 3rd parties from juggernauts like Activision to smaller ones like Bethesda and THQ would love to see this generation continue: Activision because they have a huge userbase to exploit and the others because their investment in this generation in terms of game engines have been incredible and they must fear the need to reinvest in the next-generation. I think you'll also likely have a lag in migration. Activisions and EAs will certainly be available in early days on the new generation (Q4 2012, Q1 2013 likely for Microsoft, later for Sony), but companies like SEGA are more likely to bide their time and straddle both generations and migrate really, really slowly to the next.
 
It all depends on the software. Microsoft has the most to gain and the most to lose at this point because of their move with Kinect. They've clearly won over the very temporary Wii-like crowd with their launch, but they're going to need to grab the rest of th gaming audiences with compelling software, because they've got less and less each year outside of their fantastic third party support.

It's pretty interesting that the last two of the highly-demanded PS3 titles since before launch (FFvXIII and Team ICO's new game) will be out soon. I think by the end of next year Sony's going to be in a similar situation as they decide whether they need to continue to support the PS3's library, or if the NGP becomes a notable success and they need to bolster support for that platform going forward.

I'm in the party that believes this generation needs to keep going for another 3-4 years...let's hope the platform holders and the audiences feel the same way. If people start clamoring for next-gen consoles too soon, it's going to be rather upsetting because pretty much every generation is already ended before its time.
 

FoneBone

Member
EviLore said:
Will it happen? Absolutely.

What will the industry do when it happens, in the face of exponentially increasing development costs as we look to "next-gen"? There will have to be a paradigm shift or we risk a market crash. Right now companies need to one-up the last Big Thing or the hype cycle fails and perceptions skew negative. If you look to PC gaming, PCs continue to advance but since copious amounts of money isn't being thrown at AAA oneupmanship perceptions of what constitutes a worthy product have been changing. PC development is shifting to be about finding your audience and leveraging your unique ideas to cater to that audience in a sustainable way, or lower budget experimental projects attempting to develop new types of audiences, rather than trying to sell a massively budgeted lowest common denominator product catering to the widest possible audience.

That can happen on consoles too, but first consoles need more viable price points than $60 or XBLA. That's facilitated almost entirely through digital distribution, but console gamers appear to be quite wary of how console manufacturers and publishers want to handle an internet-driven content delivery model on consoles.

Finding an attractive solution and the right timing for mainstream console digital distro will be the sticking point going forward. Unfortunately Japanese companies seem to have an archaic perspective on the internet, and Microsoft seems to enjoy short-sighted business practices over long-term market development (see: XBLA/GFWL compared to Steam).
"AAA oneupmanship" sums up this gen's problem perfectly. I can only hope publishers are able to let it die along with the current generation of hardware.
 

Opiate

Member
a Master Ninja said:
Nobody is saying that.

You sure about that?

Stuburns said:
People will play these consoles till the next consoles come.

_dementia said:
I think the userbases will remain healthy until the PS3 and 360 successors are released.

They generally won't decline until newer systems replace them.

These quotations seem to pretty clearly state that the PS3/360 can be sustained indefinitely until Sony and Microsoft choose to replace them. I am stating that these consoles will decline even if MS/Sony want them to last forever.
 

bhlaab

Member
Opiate said:
I strongly disagree. People will get bored and move on even if Sony came out tomorrow and said "the PS3 will be our primary platform forever, we will never replace it."

Move on to what though? Either they'd keep playing on current systems or they's stop playing video games altogether because there is nowhere to move to besides the PC. And the way the market is now the PC won't make any grand steps forward until the consoles do.
 

Captain Pants

Killed by a goddamned Dredgeling
Given the quality of upcoming titles, I don't see it slowing for a while. That said, I'm sure that we'll see at least one new console in the next two years. If Nintendo goes first, I don't know that PS3 or 360 active userbases will drop too much, as I don't imagine that a Super Wii would be so far beyond the PS360 games that people would lose interest in either system. If Sony or Microsoft go first into next-gen, I could see this gen dropping off pretty quickly. We don't have a system comparable to the PS2 this gen that would continue to get good software releases long after a replacement has arrived.(in my opinion)

If no new consoles come, and I continue to see my favorite franchises being substantially better on PC, I'll lose interest in my PS3 quickly, aside from first party stuff of course. I'm not one of those console gamers that think getting into PC gaming costs an arm and a leg, I mostly am just lazy enough/broke enough to not build a competent gaming rig, but it wouldn't take much for me to abandon current gen consoles altogether if they got stagnant.
 
Opiate said:
Okay, I can clearly see that many people think that these platforms can be sustained indefinitely if no new consoles are released.

I strongly disagree. People will get bored and move on even if Sony came out tomorrow and said "the PS3 will be our primary platform forever, we will never replace it."

Look at the PS2, as an example. The system was declining well before the PS3 was released: the PS3 was released because the PS2 was declining, not the other way around. Obviously the PS3 then further hastened the PS2's demise, but I'm arguing that the PS2 would have died regardless.

I think by mid 2012, even if no one has announced a new home system, we'll start seeing YoY aggregate revenue declines. Even with system price cuts. People get bored and stop playing, and you can't replace the abandoned users with new users fast enough.



Okay, just to make this absolutely clear: this isn't what I'm saying. I'll emphasize this one more time -- people get bored. Even if no other system of any kind was ever released (not just PS4/720, but no new Wii, no new portables, no new phones, no new PC hardware), people would eventually stop playing their PS3s and 360s and find other things to do, because most of what the PS3 and 360 are capable of has already been tapped. I don't just mean that technologically, I mean that conceptually.

It does not mean they will flock to the PC. It could mean they flock to Sports, or Poker, or Social Networking. They can go anywhere. The point is, people get bored and move on, and eventually you can't replace the old users with new users fast enough. When that happens, less games are sold and revenue declines.

Of course people will get bored with outdated technology. Does that really need to be stated?

You're basically saying if something stagnated would people eventually move on to something less stagnant ... yes? Yes they would.

This IS a technologically pushed hobby though, you can't have it without the tech being pushed. It's a hobby based on pushing technology so of course if the technology stagnates so will the people interested in the hobby.

And saying "You sure about that" to a "new consoles will NEVER come out" ... of course people would move on. Stuff changes.

I'm sure any other hobbyist would move on if NOTHING changed. Kind of a ridiculous argument to be honest.

"But what if Sony or MS never ever ever made a new console?!" ...

As long as GOOD games are still coming out it can last a long time. Somebody already mentioned DS games and their graphics so it's obvious hardware isn't the thing pushing these things.

I think you severely underestimate the games in this hobby we call gaming. As long as there are great games to play, then people will play them. Of course if 2070 rolls around and the PS3 and 360 are the only consoles, I'd assume some people might have moved on to something.

Even if Sony or MS don't make a newfangled console, someone will fill that market.
 

Opiate

Member
bhlaab said:
Move on to what though? Either they'd keep playing on current systems or they's stop playing video games altogether because there is nowhere to move to besides the PC. And the way the market is now the PC won't make any grand steps forward until the consoles do.

That's kind of how I feel about it too. Where would they go? Some to the PC but not a huge amount

Any other pastime in the entire world.
 

StuBurns

Banned
Opiate said:
Okay, just to make this absolutely clear: this isn't what I'm saying. I'll emphasize this one more time -- people get bored. Even if no other system of any kind was ever released (not just PS4/720, but no new Wii, no new portables, no new phones, no new PC hardware), people would eventually stop playing their PS3s and 360s and find other things to do, because most of what the PS3 and 360 are capable of has already been tapped. I don't just mean that technologically, I mean that conceptually.

It does not mean they will flock to the PC. It could mean they flock to Sports, or Poker, or Social Networking. They can go anywhere. The point is, people get bored and move on, and eventually you can't replace the old users with new users fast enough. When that happens, less games are sold and revenue declines.
No. People are not going to forgot about a type of media because they haven't bought new boxes of late.

Why do people play DS games that are below par graphically with PS1 games? Because games are being made for it.

GTA was the biggest IP last gen, SA came out in 2004/5 (for PC and Xbox) and sold over twenty million units.

The 'active base' was there at the end of last gen.
 

JWong

Banned
It usually declines because of new releases. There's a lot of overlapping as well since you do handhelds for one type of gaming and consoles for another.

It's as simple as just release the next console.
 
I don't think it's possible to remain positively active in this current generation past 2012. Which is why I think 2013 will be the announcement and release of new consoles for PS3/60. But who knows it could happen as early as 2012 E3 and a release in early 2013. Maybe they drop some hints here and there. It's hard to tell.

All I know is I don't see this generation surviving like it is now past 2012.
 
Personally I hope the release of the NGP and 3DS sees a return to large scope, 'console' type experiences with reasonable budgets and development cycles, as oppose to developers bleeding money in the 'AAA' rat race and crippling the industry
 
StuBurns said:
No. People are not going to forgot about a type of media because they haven't bought new boxes of late.

Why do people play DS games that are below par graphically with PS1 games? Because games are being made for it.

GTA was the biggest IP last gen, SA came out in 2004/5 (for PC and Xbox) and sold over twenty million units.

The 'active base' was there at the end of last gen.

I think that's wrong. I watched the Super Bowl and the World Series almost every year, but you'd be wrong to call me an active football or baseball follower. I just like the big stuff, just like people like big games. Will people buy Madden and FIFA, Call of Duty or Final Fantasy indefinitely if the companies still release them on the PS3 and 360 (assuming no PS4 and 720)? Yes. But will they buy games like Bulletstorm in droves? I doubt it.

Edit: I guess what I meant to say if that sounded overly snarky was that the end of last gen may have been active but it wasn't growing, which is the problem that I think Opiate is really getting at, and which is the major problem for developers, publishers, and console manufacturers.
 

Opiate

Member
StuBurns said:
No. People are not going to forgot about a type of media because they haven't bought new boxes of late.

They will forget about a media if it doesn't do anything new for years, and we're clearly there with the PS3/360. Almost all of the big games are on their third or fourth sequel at this point.

Why do people play DS games that are below par graphically with PS1 games? Because games are being made for it.

Because it did new things that interested them. Now, most those new things have been tried out, so they get bored, and move on. That is precisely the same situation the PS3 and 360 are in.
 
flyinpiranha said:
Of course people will get bored with outdated technology. Does that really need to be stated?

That's not as obvious (and not necessarily true) as you might think. "Outdated technology" can be made appear fresh without going back to the drawing board, as Wii and Kinect have clearly demonstrated. Besides, handhelds have always been using outdated tech, and that's never stopped people from buying millions of copies of "outdated tech" games.
 

FLEABttn

Banned
Opiate said:
Any other pastime in the entire world.

Basically this. Videogames are's the only substitute good for videogames. I've been bored lately with the games I have and there's nothing coming out for a bit that I want to play so my entertainment has shifted to anime and TV. Perhaps videogames are the only acceptable substitute good for those making those claims, but the people who got into gaming specifically to play CoD and the like will be more than happy to go do literally anything else once games stop being entertaining.
 
Opiate said:
Eventually, however, people will become bored of the PS3 and 360, and move on to other options: perhaps new game platforms (PC, 3DS, iOS, new Nintendo system, Facebook), or to new hobbies altogether while they wait for something interesting to catch their interest in gaming again.

First, I'd like to discuss whether people think this will actually occur, or if we think that interest in PS3 and 360 gaming can be sustained indefinitely. I'd argue that's extremely implausible -- you're essentially arguing that people will never get bored of PS3/360 games -- but the point of this thread is to broker discussion, so if someone has a good counter argument for a powerful historical trend, I'm willing to listen.

It will happen probably around the same time as it normally does.

PS2 release Fall 2000 and PS3 released Fall 2006
PS4 releases fall 2012/2013 (maybe they can get another year out of it than the PS2)

The one who really got extended length is the 360 (Xbox 1 lasted 4 years and Xbox 360 will last 7/8 before another console)

Opiate said:
Second -- and this is the heart of the discussion -- if/when this does happen, what will third parties do? They can't be happy about a new generation, as that will increase costs again significantly. At the same time, you can't stay in this generation if revenues are beginning to decline in a high cost industry.
I would propose that most devs will attempt to make the transition to the new systems as quickly as they can. However, which systems are supported by the devs will depend largely on the way the systems are structured. Example; PS3/360 were synonymous, for the most part, in the eyes of developers. Keeping similar specs and input devices across the 3 main console developers will be key (more so for Sony and Microsoft than Nintendo).
--- 1 console (Dyack) future may be the most plausible thing here. Not exactly 1 console by 1 manufacturer, but 1 similar set of specs that developers can make games for.


Opiate said:
I think we'll begin to see the tip of this problem in late 2011 / early 2012, when PS3/360 stop showing YoY growth in software (although this date, too, is completely open to discussion). It seems like a very significant problem that I've seen very few people talk about, perhaps because the problem seems so inevitable and so unsolvable that nobody wants to think about it. Or perhaps I'm overlooking something obvious and important.
already happening for PS3 and Wii
 
Opiate said:
They will forget about a media if it doesn't do anything new for years, and we're clearly there with the PS3/360. Almost all of the big games are on their third or fourth sequel at this point.
I disagree with this, there's still a lot of fresh ideas and experiences being offered, alongside the sequels
 

StuBurns

Banned
fadetoblack said:
I think that's wrong. I watched the Super Bowl and the World Series almost every year, but you'd be wrong to call me an active football or baseball follower. I just like the big stuff, just like people like big games. Will people buy Madden and FIFA, Call of Duty or Final Fantasy indefinitely if the companies still release them on the PS3 and 360 (assuming no PS4 and 720)? Yes. But will they buy games like Bulletstorm in droves? I doubt it.
The problem with that argument is it's harder to gauge those things. For example MGS3 sold less than MGS2 despite being on a massively larger installbase, but a ton of things could go into why that was, 30Hz, not playing Snake, feeling cheated after MGS2, less effective marketing, less hype etc.

What we know for a fact is the year before the 360 came out, at the very minimum there were enough active users to make GTA:SA the best selling game of the generation.

Opiate said:
They will forget about a media if it doesn't do anything new for years, and we're clearly there with the PS3/360. Almost all of the big games are on their third or fourth sequel at this point.

Because it did new things that interested them. Now, most those new things have been tried out, so they get bored, and move on. That is precisely the same situation the PS3 and 360 are in.
Okay now this I might agree with, maybe I completely misunderstood your OP, but I thought this was about new hardware?

If all the industry produces is constant iterations of games I think people would buy less, they would become more 'service' based. I think that's true of CoD now actually. For a lot of people I think CoD is essentially a subscription game that you pay for in November for $60.
 

Ihya

Member
I don't think a new hardware cycle would radically reinvent how games appeal to people. We have hit the law of diminishing returns with graphical fidelity, in as much that a more powerful system is great, but the cost per game is already staggering and harnessing it to make hair more realistic or unique environments becomes too cost prohibitive. Very soon the juice will not be worth the squeeze.


I'd say a new system in 4 years would be good-ish news, perhaps introducing digital downloads and other incremental improvements that could change the equation slightly, but a healthy userbase for PS3 & Xbox is now not dependent on new consoles, but more its darwinian adaptability against other media forms.
 

methos75

Banned
Opiate said:
This is one of the discussions I wanted to have here, because I disagree.

I think people will get bored and move on, whether a new generation happens or not. I think new generations occur because people get bored of the old, not the other way around.

Put more directly: even if Sony and Microsoft did not plan to release a platform for 10 more years, their active userbase and would get bored and move on regardless. Publishers can try and stem the tide by putting such enormous emphasis on the PS3/360 (these two platforms get an almost grotesque share of the budget from major Publishers), but I strongly doubt that they can essentially maintain interest forever without providing something new and fresh to get people interested again.

This is a situation though that has never really occurred ever in gaming, so the real question is: what makes you think it will in this gen, especially with the industry larger and more varied than its been at any other point? We saw no real drop off in Genesis software sells until Sega mucked up their own market with multiple consoles. The SNES had strong sells software wise even after the PSone was released. The PS2 still saw dramatic sells on the software after the PS3 was released. And the NES did very, very well and killed the Genesis in software sells in its first year of release. Quite simple, no userbase has ever truly gotten bored and packed up before successor consoles were released, ever.
 
The handheld market and the console market is fundamentally different and for different audiences. You won't catch me dead spending most of my time on a DS or PSP, but it isn't because the technology is weaker.
 

Opiate

Member
Okay, let's look at it this way. People often look at the Wii or DS as "fads:" people will try out the new ideas (Wii Sports, Brain Training, etc) and then eventually get bored and move on to something else.

I am suggesting that graphics and other technologies are no different: people are always very excited about amazing new graphics when systems are first released. Gears of War! Killzone 2! But eventually, we reach a point where graphics aren't advancing very quickly, and people are no longer inherently interested in games just because they look so amazing.

I think many of you have the causal relationship backwards. Old systems do not decline because new systems are released: new systems are released because old systems decline.
 

fernoca

Member
The thing is that people has been getting bored of consoles since the Atari 2600 days. People stop playing, move on and get the new consoles or just other hobbies.

There's no way as far as I know to actually define or see "an active userbase". Yeah, there's decline in sales of both software and hardware; but many people seem to be satisfied with playing "that one game" and wait for price reductions, rather than running around and getting games during the first months of release. The PS2 with its over 100 million consoles, had games on average selling as much as current gen games (or less). Even GameCube big sellers usually did similar numbers to the big PS2 releases, even with the drastic difference in numbers. Yet, developers weren't worried at PS2 owners not buying their games, they just gt the games out.

So it seems that developers as long as they get the sales they want or aim, and sometimes get lucky enough to have the next Just Dance or Call of Duty, they'll be fine with selling whatever they want.

They would worry if the next Call of Duty only sells 100,00 copies and every other games sells less than that too; or when first party releases see a big decline in sales. But as long as games (and the usual suspects) continue selling a million here and there, things will be just the same as it has been all this generations of consoles.
 

bhlaab

Member
Opiate said:
Any other pastime in the entire world.

Color SDTVs sustained themselves for 40+ years without the public collectively deciding to go outside and get some fresh air. HDTVs were created to capitalize on new technologies, not to rescue a dying medium.
 

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Opiate said:
Second -- and this is the heart of the discussion -- if/when this does happen, what will third parties do? They can't be happy about a new generation, as that will increase costs again significantly. At the same time, you can't stay in this generation if revenues are beginning to decline in a high cost industry.

I disagree on the fact that the costs will jump again significantly. To a large extent a new generation will just smooth out a lot from this generation. You can have the same looking game in DX10 that looks like DX9 but with a descent performance increase because the api is just that much better now.

You also get fixes to things like AA not working with certain type of DX9 shadders for shadows. You could get improved image quality, more AA, more AF, improved FPS, better resolution etc... and you wouldn't really have to change a thing cost wise from this generation.

Even adding in new lighting tech that came along with the advent of DX10 isn't gonna be more costly to implement compared to now. It'll just be different, and end up looking better. Heck just look at Epic. They are already just incorporating the new DX11 stuff into UE3. So when a new platform hits devs can just use the updated version of the engine many already work on now middleware wise.

I assume to art asset wise they are just having to downscale what they've already created. Now they just don't have to scale down as much if games are say native 1080p next generation or at least all native 720p.

There are a shit ton of easy improvements in the newer version of both Open GL and DX that should allow for better looking games just by doing what they already are doing using more modern APIs.
 
Top Bottom