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Doki Doki Panic started as a "vertical" "Mario-like" 2 player game

This article's from yesterday. It seems like there should be a thread here about this already, but maybe I've missed it if there is, because I don't see a thread... has it not been posted?

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011/04/the-secret-history-of-super-mario-bros-2.ars

According to the article, this comes from a Kensuke Tanabe interview done at GDC this year. Tanabe was DDP/Mario 2's director.

Quoting the relevant parts of the article:
The prototype, worked up by SRD, a company that programmed many of Nintendo’s early games, was intended to show how a Mario-style game might work if the players climbed up platforms vertically instead of walking horizontally, said Tanabe.

“The idea was that you would have people vertically ascending, and you would have items and blocks that you could pile up to go higher, or you could grab your friend that you were playing with and throw them to try and continue to ascend,” Tanabe said. Unfortunately, “the vertical-scrolling gimmick wasn’t enough to get us interesting gameplay.”

The rapid-prototype development process on display here informs Nintendo’s design philosophy to this day. The company doesn’t begin development with characters and worlds: It starts by making sure that game boasts a fun and compelling game mechanic. If it’s not perfect, Nintendo has no qualms about throwing it out.

Soon after he was hired by Nintendo in the mid-’80s, Tanabe sat down with his boss, Mario creator Shigeru Miyamoto, to look at this prototype together.

“The game was mocked up (so that) when the player climbed about two-thirds of the way up the screen, it would scroll so that the player was pushed further down,” Tanabe said.

The game-design team led by Miyamoto was tasked with coming up with a game that used this trick of programming. But Tanabe and Miyamoto weren’t too hot on the concept.

While the prototype featured two players jumping, stacking up blocks to climb higher, and throwing each other around, the technical limitations of the primitive NES made it difficult to build a polished game out of this complex action. And playing it with just one person wasn’t very fun.

“Miyamoto looked at it and said, ‘Maybe we need to change this up,’” Tanabe recalled. He suggested that Tanabe add in traditional side-scrolling gameplay and “make something a little bit more Mario-like.”

“As long as it’s fun, anything goes,” Tanabe remembers Miyamoto saying.

Although the initial concept for the game had been scrapped, the development of that original two-player cooperative prototype inspired all the innovative gameplay of Super Mario Bros. 2, Tanabe said.

“Picking up blocks was the same thing as pulling out vegetables from the ground,” he said. By the same token, picking up the other player and throwing him turned into picking up enemy characters.

Doki Doki Panic was actually part of a deal with the Fuji corporation, in which Nintendo would produce a tie-in videogame for a media-technology expo called Yume Kōjō, or “Dream Factory.” The mascot characters invented for this expo were the stars of the game.

“I remember being pulled over to Fuji Television one day, being handed a sheet with game characters on it and being told, ‘I want you to make a game with this,’” Tanabe said.

Released in 1987, Doki Doki Panic was one of the biggest hits on Nintendo’s Disk System, a floppy drive that worked with the Japanese version of the NES. Since this hardware was not released in America, many Disk System games were ported to standard game cartridges for US release.

“Because we had to make this change, we had the opportunity to change other things” about the game, said Tanabe. “We knew these Fuji TV characters wouldn’t be popular in America, but what would be attractive in America would be the Mario characters.”

Tanabe’s team made many improvements to the original for its American debut, adding more enemy characters, throwing in some visual nods to the Mario games and greatly enhancing the animation and sound effects.

Because one of Mario’s most notable features at the time was his ability to grow and shrink when he ate magic mushrooms, this was added to the game. But the implementation was not without its issues.

“When the characters got shrunk down to a smaller version of themselves, it was easy to sneak through parts of the level that you weren’t supposed to go through, so we made their heads bigger so they would get caught on those things,” Tanabe said.

The enhancements to Super Mario Bros. 2 were so great that the game was eventually brought back to Japan, retitled Super Mario USA.

I've always liked Mario 2, it's interesting to know that it did actually start as a Mario game. :)
 

Speevy

Banned
Aeris130 said:
SMB2 is a good game again.


It was always a good game.

Still the richest resource of concepts and enemies Nintendo has barely touched in the last 25 or so years.
 

Gravijah

Member
Speevy said:
It was always a good game.

Still the richest resource of concepts and enemies Nintendo has barely touched in the last 25 or so years.

Shy Guys are still the greatest Mario enemy ever.

I wonder if they were originally Mario characters or not?
 
iSPIK.gif
 
That's... Weird to say the least, though hopefully this will help kill some of the hate SMB2/USA gets online from certain groups. I played SMB2 tons when I was growing up with my SNES and Super Mario All-Stars, and Lost Levels about once or twice at most; as far as I'm concerned, SMB2's more of a sequel than Lost Levels ever was.
 

Snuggles

erotic butter maelstrom
Just in case you don't understand the sass, this is considered common knowledge for most of us. A few things stuck from SMB2, wasn't it the debut of the Fly Guy? Fly guys are badass.
 

Game Guru

Member
So let me get this straight. Nintendo was planning to make a Mario game, but turned the idea into Doki Doki Panic, and then turned Doki Doki Panic into Super Mario Bros. 2?

Dang...
 
I certainly don't like it more than the other mainline Super Mario platformers, but it has its own charm. I'd like to see what ideas have been brewing about how to build on this gameplay in the past twenty years. New Doki Doki 2 for 3DS?
 

Gravijah

Member
Talladega Knight said:
i was also unaware smb 2 was not considered an awesome game here

the game has always been an A+

Less here, more... in general. A lot of people don't like SMB2 for some reason.
 

Speevy

Banned
Game Guru said:
So let me get this straight. Nintendo was planning to make a Mario game, but turned the idea into Doki Doki Panic, and then turned Doki Doki Panic into Super Mario Bros. 2?

Dang...

I always thought it went something like

"Oh crap, people really want more of this Mario fellow. We can't get another one done that fast. Reskin this other game, NOW!"
 
Gravijah said:
Less here, more... in general. A lot of people don't like SMB2 for some reason.
Because it isn't quite the platformer of SMB3 and it's not as groundbreaking as SMB.

I always fell into the "Not the best 2D Mario, but that doesn't mean it's bad. Still better than most platformers." area.
 

spliced

Member
I feel vindicated!

For some reason when reading people disparagingly say SMB2 was just Doki Doki Panic I had it in my head that it was made by another developer and I felt a secret shame:)P) in enjoying a non-Nintendo created Mario so much.

Who cares what it was at one time. It's not like Metroid would be any worse of a game if it was discovered it was originally Super Mario Spaceman.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
I actually found a greater appreciation for the game in recent years. I probably like it better than the original (minus that stupid Frog boss).
 
REMEMBER CITADEL said:
I don't get it, it says "Mario-style game", not "Mario game".

That's true. Maybe Chris Kohler can clarify? It sounds from the way the article is written, though, that the prototype was a Mario game, but yeah, maybe it isn't entirely clear.
 

CamHostage

Member
BowieZ said:
For some reason I found that article and all the explanations rather difficult to follow.

Yeah, it's a bit confusing in the sum-up. (Was this a GDC feature that's available online?)

But from what I've read, the OP is a little off-base. The game did not start off as a Super Mario game; it started off as a tech project by the team that made Super Mario games with Miyamoto as a vertical platforming concept. The idea was interresting but wasn't panning out as its own game, and Miyamoto suggested that they try making the game a bit more like Mario with traditional platforming rather than the stacking method of level traversal they were playing with. So then at some point, the DokiDoki license came along and they took this tech demo and put it towards that contract, and then later when it came time to ship a Super Mario 2 to America, a number of reasons (the outmoded engine and graphics of SMB2LL by the time the game was ready for US release, the awkward difficulty level and lack of casual entry point, the lack of innovation and "cash-in" franchise damage it could do), the company decided to go another way and convert its DokiDoki project.

So no, I don't think it ever started as a Super Mario game, but for sure this game totally has Mario DNA pumping through its veins.
 
The real discovery is what would eventually become of NSMB Wii's Coop gameplay that allows the player to pick up other players and throw them was in planning as early as the 80's.
 

vareon

Member
Boken said:
I swear we all knew this.

The common trivia is "SMB2 is Doki Doki Panic in Japan". That Doki Doki Panic started as an experiment of the Mario team and then got a deal with Fuji corporation isn't well-known.
 

big_z

Member
CamHostage said:
Yeah, it's a bit confusing in the sum-up. (Was this a GDC feature that's available online?)

But from what I've read, the OP is a little off-base. The game did not start off as a Super Mario game; it started off as a tech project by the team that made Super Mario games with Miyamoto as a vertical platforming concept. The idea was interresting but wasn't panning out as its own game, and Miyamoto suggested that they try making the game a bit more like Mario with traditional platforming rather than the stacking method of level traversal they were playing with. So then at some point, the DokiDoki license came along and they took this tech demo and put it towards that contract, and then later when it came time to ship a Super Mario 2 to America, a number of reasons (the outmoded engine and graphics of SMB2LL by the time the game was ready for US release, the awkward difficulty level and lack of casual entry point, the lack of innovation and "cash-in" franchise damage it could do), the company decided to go another way and convert its DokiDoki project.

So no, I don't think it ever started as a Super Mario game, but for sure this game totally has Mario DNA pumping through its veins.


this basically. a concept intended for mario got rejected, so they fleshed it out more and it became doki doki and then turned back into mario.
 
Nintendo does not waste ideas, every failed new IP can be retooled as a Mario, Zelda, Kirby or Metroid title and turn it into gold
KuGsj.gif


but yeah this one is strange
 
Smiles and Cries said:
Nintendo does not waste ideas, every failed new IP can be retooled as a Mario, Zelda, Kirby or Metroid title and turn it into gold
KuGsj.gif


but yeah this one is strange
Because we're willing whores.

Abuse me Nintendo... abuse me.
 

JonCha

Member
Old news. Known this for a while (though not everyone did).

Coincidentally, I read the same article just now.
 
KittenMaster said:
The real discovery is what would eventually become of NSMB Wii's Coop gameplay that allows the player to pick up other players and throw them was in planning as early as the 80's.

rescuemid.jpg
 
CamHostage said:
Yeah, it's a bit confusing in the sum-up. (Was this a GDC feature that's available online?)

But from what I've read, the OP is a little off-base. The game did not start off as a Super Mario game; it started off as a tech project by the team that made Super Mario games with Miyamoto as a vertical platforming concept. The idea was interresting but wasn't panning out as its own game, and Miyamoto suggested that they try making the game a bit more like Mario with traditional platforming rather than the stacking method of level traversal they were playing with. So then at some point, the DokiDoki license came along and they took this tech demo and put it towards that contract, and then later when it came time to ship a Super Mario 2 to America, a number of reasons (the outmoded engine and graphics of SMB2LL by the time the game was ready for US release, the awkward difficulty level and lack of casual entry point, the lack of innovation and "cash-in" franchise damage it could do), the company decided to go another way and convert its DokiDoki project.

So no, I don't think it ever started as a Super Mario game, but for sure this game totally has Mario DNA pumping through its veins.
That depends on whether the first, pre-DDP version had Mario and Luigi as the characters, yes? What you're saying is plausible, but it doesn't say that it wasn't Mario at first, just that it was by a Mario team, but not based on a Miyamoto idea originally. Did it start out with Mario as the character anyway, though? That we may not know. I'd guess from the text and their history that they were meaning it to be a Mario game, but there isn't proof, sure, and then either way it was altered (horizontal areas added) and then reworked into DDP before release.

Oh, and after reading it I did guess that critics would find some reason to still try to throw Mario 2 out, perhaps centering on the fact that it wasn't Miyamoto's idea (though there are other Mario games that weren't his that were released, like the Mario Land games) or something. You do have a point that the article doesn't make it definite that the original idea was Mario, but I think it's more than we've heard before about the subject, and it certainly puts it a lot closer to being a Mario game from the start than many people have admitted.

I mean, the fact that it was by the Mario team is something that has been known for a long time, but this puts it closer than ever to Mario. That makes sense, because though it's very different in some ways, it also clearly was built off of Mario. And as I said I've always liked the game, it's a great game. Sure it's different, but that's part of what makes it interesting.

Oh, and yeah, if this comes from an interview that hasn't been released, it'd be awesome to see the full text, or even just more of it if he said anything else about the subject.

Freezie KO said:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_c-QcXnm-6O8/TGDVNlilv3I/AAAAAAAAATs/Cel6cF5O_x0/s1600/rescuemid.jpg
Yeah, and it's even got boxes too, like a Mario game would have... it is interesting how similar that is to that concept, vertical/horizontal orientation aside. :)
 
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