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THQ: We will put out a beta for every online centric game, mid-tier games are dead

TheOddOne

Member
VG247 had a massive interview with THQ's "Core" boss Bilson.

On significant changes to the company:
Q: Your sales are up, but you’ve extended your losses because there’s been a lot of restructuring. I know you personally favour the long-term approach to development, where you make a considerable investment over time in an effort to pull back the highest possible quality, when do you think this investment will really pay off? Are you able to keep the release schedule full enough to off-set these losses?

A: We’re absolutely a company in transition. We’re transitioning from what the company was, in terms of kids licensed games and a few interesting core games, to really the only place left in the world for console games: event entertainment. Anything in the mid-range doesn’t seem to work, and the world is changing rapidly. It’s really come to that, and I think we all understand that here: to go forward, we have to create events, just like EA, Activision and Ubi do. There’s no place for a mid-range game. Will we always succeed? That’s really hard to do in any entertainment business, but with a couple of large successes it could turn us around.
On franchising:
Q: It reminds me of something Bobby Kotick would come out with. He built his company on these large pillar franchises: is that how you intend to move forward with THQ?
A: Yeah, I think that’s all we can really do. It’s not just Activision or us; look at what EA’s doing on consoles. Outside of sports you’re only really hearing about one title, basically, which is Battlefield. I’m personally excited about.

Apart from that I think they have Need for Speed, and they have an RPG and, of course, the MMO, but it’s not like the old days where you look at a catalogue of everything coming. There are really few games, and those games have to be really high quality events to get gamers to go out and spend their $60.

There’s a lot more interactive entertainment around, and I think the core gamer is careful. There are a lot of great titles this fall – probably six or eight that I personally want to buy, that core gamers are excited about – but they’re all what I’d call triple-A events: anything in the middle we’re not talking about.

We have to really shift our strategy to less games and bigger investment on every level; on resource, time, talent, cash and marketing. That’s where you’re going to see us headed, on focusing and, of course, learning from our mistakes.
On gutting franchises like Red Faction:
Q: If we’re talking about THQ becoming more focused, the natural progression is to move onto Red Faction. When titles or series start to underperform, will you continue to be just as ruthless in making sure they don’t carry on?

A: We only have so much capital to invest, and we’re going to invest in the ones that work. Personally, I worked really hard on trying to bring Red Faction from Guerrilla to a larger success state, and it went in the opposite direction. Even though the critics like Guerrilla, it didn’t really sell at the levels we needed it to.

Armageddon was already well into production when Guerrilla shipped, and they’d already made the decision to go underground to improve the visual quality. We really did everything we could to make a great game in response to the other one. I think it’s really a pretty good game, but look at the big games, the really big events: how many features and modes do you get in the box for $60? You can have a 10, 12, 14-hour single-player game with some minimal online modes, and I don’t think that’s going to cut it. I think you have to go bigger and give the gamers really a lot of value for their money. That’s all part of the formula for creating an event, not just great IP and great production.

Like, great value, in terms of what’s in the package can mean more production, more modes and more variety. Look at the amount of modes in Halo, or even Call of Duty now: you’re going to see that kind of robust value in Saints Row for sure.
On social gaming:
Q: Are you seeing similar levels of growth in the social ecosystems surrounding your games?

A: You have to put that in context. For instance, our UFC game on Facebook, UFC Fight Nation, has more monthly average users than either Madden or Peter Moore’s baseball game. I think his FIFA one has more. He may be talking about them seeing an average of people spending $50, but he’s not saying how many people are spending $50. If it’s a million people, that’s really exciting, but his monthly average user figure is under a million on the two games I mentioned. It’s all about context around that. Our fanbase on the UFC game monetizes a little more on average.

To get back to your point, which was about other modes of gaming such as Facebook gaming and mobile gaming: I think that stuff is really important. I find myself spending a lot of time playing those, and whether you’re playing for free or you’re spending any money, you’re investing your hours in places other than console games. How many hours does the individual have for gaming entertainment? If half of it is free to play, where you’re spending nothing or very little, that’s half the console games you used to buy. Look at it that way.

I don’t know if “concerned” is the right word, but I think I’m aware of the fact that there’s lots of ways to play besides consoles, which takes us back to the idea that only events are going to work as must-plays. It’s like blockbuster movies: I think those are the only ones that make all the money these days, and I think it’s very similar in the games business. We’re focusing our console strategy around that.

We are putting a lot more focus on those other platforms, and we’ll be talking more about that in the coming months. You can’t avoid them. They’re a big part of the gaming ecosystem.
On the Turtle Rock project:
Q:Is the Turtle Rock game an FPS?

A: I don’t think I’m supposed to say anything about it. Marketing will kill me.

PR: No.
On new consoles:
Q: You’re talking about plans for the next three years. A lot’s been announced for calendar ’13, and so on: is this the barrier against which you’re expecting to see new hardware come in from Microsoft and Sony? Around 2014?

I mean, I don’t know. And I’m being honest with you. I keep asking, and I keep not getting clear answers.

The new hardware will just put less restrictions on the games, on mostly graphics and memory. We’re already building them with more online features, trying to bring in concepts of more social functionality in our console games, which I think is really interesting. Things like, the more of your friends are playing the more stuff unlocks for you. Some of those things are really neat and important innovations in gaming that we’ve seen in the Facebook world, and I want to bring some of that to the consoles, just as some of my partners are at the other companies.


But the answer the question about new hardware? As soon as we hear we’ll make the call about what games are on the fence, and they’ll either be exclusive to the new hardware or they’ll cross the line and be on current hardware and enhanced for the new hardware. That’s not really a big challenge, because these games are very ambitious anyway.

Phew, there is more stuff at the link.

He goes in about Homefront too:
Q: You personally bigged that game up a great deal, and you backed it heavily with marketing. It would be fair to say that it didn’t perform very well critically, and eventually you had to close Kaos. Were you personally disappointed with the way all that turned out?

A: Yes. I knew some aspects of the game weren’t 100 percent competitive with the best in class, but there were other places where I thought it was better. As far as the reviews go, I have to really say that the reviews were mixed. Metacritic takes all your good reviews and trashes them. That’s what it does. We had 40 reviews over 80 percent: 40 of them. If some heavily-weighted sites trash you, that becomes the whole story.

More important is the game and people’s experience with it. There were two things about Homefront: yes, the single-player should have been longer, and we kind of got wind of that too late to affect it. People were banging through it faster than we thought.

But It was never really about that as a foremost thing; I was always really big on the multiplayer, which I think is a terrific game, but we had issues in our network code which gave us a very rough launch. That was incredibly disappointing to me. You’ll never see us do a game without a live beta again. No matter what date we have to crush, as long as I’m here we won’t put out an online-centric game without a live beta, so we can work out those bugs in advance.

It took longer than I would have liked to fix it. Obviously, it’s all really well-fixed and cleaned up now, and it’s terrific. I still maintain it’s a really fun online battlefield, but it took too long to correct some of those errors in the network code and we lost a lot of our groundswell.

And yes, it was incredibly disappointing for me. I learned a lot from it, because there were a lot of really good things in it. It appealed to a wide variety of people and fans. I wasn’t unaware that if we were going into the world of the Call of Duties and the Battlefields we weren’t going to be compared to them; you don’t get a pass because it’s your first one, and you don’t get a pass because you’re THQ, or anything like that, and the team knew that. I was always telling them that, if they weren’t always telling themselves that. And I think we were 80 percent of where we needed to be. I think we were criticsed as if we were 50 percent of where we needed to be. There was all kinds of learning that went on with that.
 
Didn't THQ already try the "go BIG or go HOME" strategy on Homefront? They were doing the whole "push this to be the next entertainment blockbuster event" thing.

Really bombed hard on that one.
 

Data West

coaches in the WNBA
FieryBalrog said:
Didn't THQ already try the "go BIG or go HOME" strategy on Homefront? They were doing the whole "push this to be the next entertainment blockbuster event" thing.

Really bombed hard on that one.
Did they? I believe Homefront sold better than any of their other titles in the first few months.
 

Mikeside

Member
FieryBalrog said:
Didn't THQ already try the "go BIG or go HOME" strategy on Homefront? They were doing the whole "push this to be the next entertainment blockbuster event" thing.

Really bombed hard on that one.

Sometimes 'go big or go home' just means go home...



...I liked Homefront, anyway :(
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
zoner said:
Did they? I believe Homefront sold better than any of their other titles in the first few months.
Yeah, it shipped between 2.5 to 3 million units.

A ton of that was overshipped though, so it probably sold closer to 2 million.
 

TheOddOne

Member
He goes in about Homefront too:
Q: You personally bigged that game up a great deal, and you backed it heavily with marketing. It would be fair to say that it didn’t perform very well critically, and eventually you had to close Kaos. Were you personally disappointed with the way all that turned out?

A: Yes. I knew some aspects of the game weren’t 100 percent competitive with the best in class, but there were other places where I thought it was better. As far as the reviews go, I have to really say that the reviews were mixed. Metacritic takes all your good reviews and trashes them. That’s what it does. We had 40 reviews over 80 percent: 40 of them. If some heavily-weighted sites trash you, that becomes the whole story.

More important is the game and people’s experience with it. There were two things about Homefront: yes, the single-player should have been longer, and we kind of got wind of that too late to affect it. People were banging through it faster than we thought.

But It was never really about that as a foremost thing; I was always really big on the multiplayer, which I think is a terrific game, but we had issues in our network code which gave us a very rough launch. That was incredibly disappointing to me. You’ll never see us do a game without a live beta again. No matter what date we have to crush, as long as I’m here we won’t put out an online-centric game without a live beta, so we can work out those bugs in advance.

It took longer than I would have liked to fix it. Obviously, it’s all really well-fixed and cleaned up now, and it’s terrific. I still maintain it’s a really fun online battlefield, but it took too long to correct some of those errors in the network code and we lost a lot of our groundswell.

And yes, it was incredibly disappointing for me. I learned a lot from it, because there were a lot of really good things in it. It appealed to a wide variety of people and fans. I wasn’t unaware that if we were going into the world of the Call of Duties and the Battlefields we weren’t going to be compared to them; you don’t get a pass because it’s your first one, and you don’t get a pass because you’re THQ, or anything like that, and the team knew that. I was always telling them that, if they weren’t always telling themselves that. And I think we were 80 percent of where we needed to be. I think we were criticsed as if we were 50 percent of where we needed to be. There was all kinds of learning that went on with that.
 

Lime

Member
While I do not consider Homefront to be of any creative value at all, the huge focus on the quest for Metacritic ratings is a big detriment to the industry, imo. I know that money and sales are the all-powerful entities, but it is incredibly disheartening to see so much creative labour being put to use on what appeases the reviewers and their number-happy audience, instead of relying on the developers' own creative vision and ideas.
 
Lime said:
While I do not consider Homefront to be of any creative value at all, the huge focus on the quest for Metacritic ratings ia a big detriment to the industry, imo. I know that money and sales are the all-powerful entities, but it is incredibly disheartening to see so much creative labour being put to use on what appeases the reviewers and their number-happy audience, instead of relying on the developers' own creative vision and ideas.

They should cater to existing fans that are keeping the game up.
And ask them first because the rest will just say it's not cod or bf3.
 

legend166

Member
This is what happens when the industry as a whole ignores middle tier games for 4 years. They really only have themselves to blame.
 

markot

Banned
legend166 said:
This is what happens when the industry as a whole ignores middle tier games for 4 years. They really only have themselves to blame.
Surely its the consumers who are to blame? YES YOU!
 

alstein

Member
legend166 said:
This is what happens when the industry as a whole ignores middle tier games for 4 years. They really only have themselves to blame.


Stardock and Paradox have made a pretty good living off mid-tier gaming. I think if you serve a niche, a middle-tier game will do quite well. I'd argue that Blazblue is a pretty successful middle-tier franchise.

Would Disgaea be a middle-tier franchise?
 
Nirolak said:
THQ is a big seller on Steam, so they're definitely familiar with them.
so maybe they can't develop profitable mid game? There are lots of companies in the business that develop mid tier games and not only survive but are actually very successful, from top of my mind, I can think of MagiKa developer; even on retail, I can think of Atlus
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
walking fiend said:
so maybe they can't develop profitable mid game? There are lots of companies in the business that develop mid tier games and not only survive but are actually very successful, from top of my mind, I can think of MagiKa developer; even on retail, I can think of Atlus
Those are low tier budget games.

THQ is talking about the $10-$18 million budget range.
 
That is a really good interview. They guy knows his things, seemed pretty honest as well. Will THQ achieve success is another story. I think they are too small to handle the BIG gaming they aspire to.
 
Nirolak said:
Those are low tier budget games.

THQ is talking about the $10-$18 million budget range.
I believe many Nintendo games have a budget around that, don't they?

what game in particular does he think of?
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
walking fiend said:
I believe many Nintendo games have a budget around that, don't they?

what game in particular does he think of?
Splatterhouse, Red Faction 4, Enslaved, Vanquish, Blacksite, Alan Wake, Crackdown 2, SOCOM 4, MAG, or basically any game that isn't either the top tier on their platform or something very low budget like Alice/Catherine.

While Nintendo's budgets are around that, they're still the biggest and best games on the Wii, which is the important part.

StoppedInTracks said:
Also, I think, we can kiss goodbye to PC exclusives (RTS games) from THQ...
They're announcing a new one at GamesCom.
 

markot

Banned
Relic is probably one of their most profitable and consistant devs around. So I dont see them ditching pc exclusives.
 

faridmon

Member
markot said:
What makes a game 'mid tier' ??
Low profile games that rely a lot about cult following and don't have bug budget. They are mid, since they are good. At least that is what I see them.

THQ example: De Blob, Viva Pinata DS, Stuntman Ignition, The Outfit (I didn't like this one) and Ddeadly Creators.
 
Regarding Relic game: I dunno guys, I really hope so.

Anyway so the future of gaming according to my analysis is:

- AAAA titles with $100M budget
- WoW-likes
- F2P MMOs (RPG, action, FPS) titles with microtransactions
- iOS <$4.99 titles

Not a very interesting future I am afraid :|
 
Splatterhouse, Red Faction 4, Enslaved, Vanquish, Blacksite, Alan Wake, Crackdown 2, SOCOM 4, MAG, or basically any game that isn't either the top tier on their platform or something very low budget like Alice/Catherine.

While Nintendo's budgets are around that, they're still the biggest and best games on the Wii, which is the important part.
most of those games were either not good games compared to the rest of the games in the same genre, or were games that weren't really in a popular genre to begin with. So you can't make a cause and effect relation between their sale and their budget really.

But let's say vanquish, it was a very good game and sold much more than needed to over a 10-18 million budget, and so did Bayonetta or Sonic Colors or Shogun; they didn't sell spectacularly, but sold much more than needed to cover mid budget game expenses by your definition. I believe games such as left4dead or dead rising fall into the mid range tier as well.
 

robjoh

Member
Nirolak said:
Those are low tier budget games.

THQ is talking about the $10-$18 million budget range.

Maybe a stupid question, but is the cost of 10-18 million USD not a sign of a too large budget and not that the mid tier game is dead?
 
StoppedInTracks said:
Regarding Relic game: I dunno guys, I really hope so.

Anyway so the future of gaming according to my analysis is:

- AAAA titles with $100M budget
- WoW-likes
- F2P browser titles with microtransactions
- iOS <$4.99 titles

Not a very interesting future I am afraid.
Don't forgot the Future where THQ won't exist for making shit decisions like this.
 

Jamie OD

Member
I'm not too keen on their ideas for only making 'big tier' games and franchises but if they somehow capture lightning in a bottle with it then they'll be reaping in the glory.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
robjoh said:
Maybe a stupid question, but is the cost of 10-18 million USD not a sign of a too large budget and not that the mid tier game is dead?
It's a matter of definition.

Generally, if you lower the budget notably below $10 million, people consider the game low-tier in terms of budgeting.

His argument is is that you either have to go really big or budget very carefully.
 

Corky

Nine out of ten orphans can't tell the difference.
StoppedInTracks said:
Regarding Relic game: I dunno guys, I really hope so.

Anyway so the future of gaming according to my analysis is:

- AAAA titles with $100M budget
- WoW-likes
- F2P browser titles with microtransactions
- iOS <$4.99 titles

Not a very interesting future I am afraid.

That's pretty much where we are now.

- "AAA" titles today cost a ridiculous amount of money to make/sell
- WoW-likes, I don't quite know what this means
- F2P broswer titles with microtran. yeap we're there already, maybe not broswer games per se but F2P is on the up and up.
-iOS <4.99, yeah I think that's here to stay as well I have a hard time seeing devs compete with cheap games unless their own games are sold at 5 or less as well.


My one hope is that from this soon to crash industry, indie devs will rise out of the ashes like a phoenix and reset the whole thing. New dev studious sprout and grows and we get quality, innovative titles.
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
markot said:
What makes a game 'mid tier' ??

Pretty much anything in the US$5m-18m range. Budgets too low to compete with AAA titles. Budgets too high to make money in the "value" end of the spectrum which is reliant on low dev, virtually no marketing, and wide distribution.

All publishers have been steadily scaling back title production in that budget range for the past 2 years, including Activision who chainsawed it completely out of their business model last year.
 
Nirolak said:
It's a matter of definition.

Generally, if you lower the budget notably below $10 million, people consider the game low-tier in terms of budgeting.

His argument is is that you either have to go really big or budget very carefully.
an argument which he has no point to support, it is not like movie industry that without high budget effects and famous names your sci-fi or fantasy game is bonded to look like shit and sell like shit.

and the reasons are obvious 1. Cinema is mostly a visual experience 2. names get much more exposure in movie industry
 

Ushojax

Should probably not trust the 7-11 security cameras quite so much
It’s really come to that, and I think we all understand that here: to go forward, we have to create events, just like EA, Activision and Ubi do. There’s no place for a mid-range game.

This is the beginning of the end. I for one welcome our new $60 FPS, $1 microgame overlords.
 

mclem

Member
Ushojax said:
This is the beginning of the end. I for one welcome our new $60 FPS, $1 microgame overlords.

Does this mean WarioWare should cost upwards of $100?

I'd probably pay it
 
We really did everything we could to make a great game in response to the other one. I think it’s really a pretty good game, but look at the big games, the really big events: how many features and modes do you get in the box for $60? You can have a 10, 12, 14-hour single-player game with some minimal online modes, and I don’t think that’s going to cut it. I think you have to go bigger and give the gamers really a lot of value for their money.

This quote is very amusing.
A normal person would come to the conclusion that a lower budget smaller game would do well at a lower price point (a price point representing it's value).

But somehow his mind rejects that and '60 dollah' is all his feeble little mind can process.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
SneakyStephan said:


This quote is very amusing.
A normal person would come to the conclusion that a lower budget smaller game would do well at a lower price point (a price point representing it's value).

But somehow his mind rejects that and '60 dollah' is all his feeble little mind can process.
THQ actually tried a lower price point with MX vs. ATV, but it didn't work so well.
 
Well other devs/publishers do have success with a proper price point, and there are obviously other factors than just price.
The game has to be worth playing and you have to sell it to people.

With the quality of the average quad game I can't imaging MX vs ATV being on many people's radar.
That and it can take one game in a series to get recognition and build a name for yourself. (if you keep not selling mid value games at 60 dollars that is never going to happen even if the game is decent)
Portal would never have been a success if it was sold as a 60 dollar standalone game (simply not worth it), yet now it's hugely popular.

People didn't really pick up on a new IP like deadspace till word of mouth spread (which took a long time despite EA being behind marketing it).
Even UC only really took off when the second game was released.

But meh, these people want profit, and they want it now, and they don't care how they get it or how sustainable it is, quarterly figures are what produces their paycheck and bonusses, so everything else be damned.


They did a good job building word of mouth and a name again for the red faction name with guerrilla, and when those people interested in the sequel find out it was feature stripped and the formula was changed they bailed out preemptively.
Such a waste.
 
Apart from that I think they have Need for Speed, and they have an RPG and, of course, the MMO, but it’s not like the old days where you look at a catalogue of everything coming. There are really few games, and those games have to be really high quality events to get gamers to go out and spend their $60.

Then how about you don't charge $60 for mid-tier games? XBLA, Steam, and PSN seem to be doing fine.

I think that $60 needs to fall for a game that is a disk if it is considered "mid-tier", but it's a tough road to go down because then people might think it's devalued. But if there's anything from last generation that I miss, it was the first party Sony games for $39.99.
 
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