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The Technomancer · Apr 11, 2012

Trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YwnYfNLHo0U

General Information:
Avernum: Escape from the Pit is the latest RPG from the independent studio Spiderweb Software, known for their games such as Avadon and Geneforge. Spiderweb has been developing and releasing shareware RPGs since 1994, over sixteen years of success in the business.

Get the enormous free demo here: http://www.avernum.com/avernum/index.html

Platforms:
iPad
Mac OSX
Windows

Price:
20USD from Spiderweb Software
10USD from Steam or on iPad

DRM:
Absolutely none baby! Well, from Spiderweb at least. The Steam version obviously has…Steam

Story:

You have been banished to the underworld, never to see the light of day again.
The surface is ruled by the cruel Emperor Hawthorne, master of the Empire. All of the known lands are subject to his brutal command. Everyone who speaks out, who misbehaves, who doesn’t fit in is cast into the dark, volcanic pits of Avernum, far below the surface. There, you are expected to die, a victim of starvation, horrible monsters, or simple despair.

But not all of the Avernites have surrendered. With magic and steel, they are forging a new nation deep underground. You can join them and fight for safety. Or freedom. Or even, if you dare, revenge on the surface-worlders who tried to destroy you.

If you find yourself consumed by a desire for revenge you may spend your game finding a way back to the surface to kill those who sent you down here. But there are larger threats looming in Avernum, and you may decide that there are more pressing concerns...

Gameplay:
Avernum is an open-world old school RPG in the finest traditions of the 90s. Its a massive freeform adventure filled with quests, loot, dungeons, dialogue and multiple endings. In fact, it has three completely separate quest lines that lead to three completely separate endings. The game takes place in the titular cavern of Avernum, a massive environment strewn with towns, dungeons and fortresses, and from the beginning the player is free to go almost anywhere they like (although they may get their ass kicked summarily if they venture too far into the deepest recesses)

Although this game is an updated version of the original Avernum (itself an updated version of Exile) there have been some serious changes, most noticeably in the character progression mechanics. You create and completely control a party of four characters, either picking archetypes or building your own custom build completely from scratch. This aspect has been re-designed to remove the problem of front loading a lot of decisions which the player has no understanding of. Vogel has this to say about the old system:

Think about this. It's a system where the more you play and learn about the challenges facing you, the less you can do to customize your characters. You have to make most of the big changes at low level, when skills are cheap. Worse, it was necessary to increase the base attributes to survive (especially Endurance, which increases health), but they were so expensive that doing so required careful planning. As a result of this mess, many players had problems with getting halfway through the game and finding that they were not strong enough to proceed. These players got angry at me, and justifiably so.

(Read more here: http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2011/08/dont-ask-questions-until-player-can.html)

The character archetypes include Soldier, Beserker, Priest, Sorcerer, Rogue, Archer, Rebel, hedge Wizard, Shaman, but these are only basic builds that the game allows you to select. All skills and abilities are independent of class, and you have the option of building your own basic character from scratch however you like.

Screens:

More here: http://www.avernum.com/avernum/shots.html

Reviews:
AppleTell

Avernum: Escape From the Pit is an amazing game which will provide hours of fun because it has everything an adventure game should have; a riveting story, interesting characters, exciting combat, and lots of exploring. I would even go so far as to say it’s a nearly perfect example of a role-playing game.

Orayn · Apr 11, 2012

Downloading demo! I remember trying some of Spiderweb's games years ago and enjoying them, so I think it may be time I got back into this.

HoosTrax · Apr 11, 2012

Is the Avernum series a 1:1 remake of Exile, but in isometric perspective? Or just loosely based on the original Exile trilogy?

Edit: I see "Nephilim Fortress" in that screenshot...omg it's Exile 2: Crystal Souls. Is it bad that I still remember the secret

ghath

password for the back entrance after all these years?

The Technomancer · Apr 11, 2012

HoosTrax said:
Is the Avernum series a 1:1 remake of Exile, but in isometric perspective? Or just loosely based on the original Exile trilogy?

More then loose, less then 1:1. Same locations, a lot of the same quests and people, but each time he re-does it he adds more content and tweaks a few things. So there's definitely more places and more quests in this version.

HoosTrax · Apr 11, 2012

The_Technomancer said:
More then loose, less then 1:1. Same locations, a lot of the same quests and people, but each time he re-does it he adds more content and tweaks a few things. So there's definitely more places and more quests in this version.

Quickfire and all huh? This sounds damn tempting since Exile is not compatible with any modern version of Windows.

Victrix · Apr 11, 2012

Is he finally using an updated engine of some sort?

I recently went on a Spiderweb sampler of sorts, and seeing that Geneforge and whatever that recent game he did still had the same basic interface was a very

moment

This isn't all bad mind you, but some of the quirkier elements weren't so nice to play with

The onscreen UI looks ok at least.

The Technomancer · Apr 11, 2012

HoosTrax said:
Quickfire and all huh? This sounds damn tempting since Exile is not compatible with any modern version of Windows.

Not sure about quickfire, I've been waiting for the Steam version to actually play this one

Victrix, check out the demo

Reluctant-Hero · Apr 11, 2012

I've been thinking about buying the iPad version. Need more impressions, please!

Alexios · Apr 11, 2012

I read on the forums he removed closing doors function from all versions just cos it didn't work right on iPad or something. I hate that sort of thing. Anyway, I got it, already downloaded over Steam, good price and stuff. but I'll need to make time to finish Avadon first. I'm near the end but kept getting distracted and now I've already started the Fallout games and PST, lol...

Oh, and downloading Legend of Grimrock from gog...

Edit: I started it up at least. Pretty nice first impression with the setting and class choices and stuff. Except the GUI elements which hide much more of the view for no good reason since the functionality outside the log is almost the same as it was in Avadon. But I probably won't mind as much when I get my bigger monitor fixed/replaced and can play in higher resolution again. I can't imagine playing it on 1024x768 though, I'm glad I waited for the PC version instead of getting it for my iPad2. Actually, it may not even be great on the new iPad, everything may be too small if it runs on its native resolution. Also, I didn't know the overworld is scaled JRPG style.

Vs Avadon

He should have kept the GUI as is imo. Maybe even ditch the fluff like telling me the portraits are the roster and the map is the map. Like duh.

Edit: oh, I just noticed the first dude's portrait background isn't as transparent as it's supposed to be, small glitch I guess, it will probably be fixed.

Edit: or it indicates he's the party leader I guess? Or it's the highlighted character, and out of combat the first always is so. I dunno yet. Weird anyway.

finalhour · Apr 11, 2012

Reluctant-Hero said:
I've been thinking about buying the iPad version. Need more impressions, please!

I picked up the ipad version while I was away for Easter and put in some quality time. Here are my impressions:

Overall the game looks as good as any Spiderweb game. I'm playing on a 3rd gen ipad and it looks the same as the desktop screenshots. It does feel a little cramped at times but it's definitely manageable.
Controls are pretty decent, but there are some small buttons that are difficult to hit, especially on the character creation screen. Combat, which takes place on a fairly small grid, also requires a lot of precise tapping. I found my fingers getting pretty strained. I think I am going to try to track down a stylus to ease the pain for longer sessions. It definitely has the feel of a mouse-driven game being ported to a touchscreen, as opposed to a game being built for touch from the ground up.
It takes a hair longer to come back from sleep than other games. Not really a big deal, but it's something I noticed. Also when rolling your characters at the start, if you hit the home button and come back to the game later you are booted back to the title screen. It seems to only suspend properly after you've saved your game.

Other than that, it's Avernum, it's portable, and it plays like the desktop verision does. Build your party, explore some caves, eat some mushrooms, and probably die quite a bit. If that sounds good to you and you are prepared to handle some precise touch controls, go for it.

Decado · Apr 11, 2012

Looks like they've improved the graphics/animations noticeably in their games over the past few years. May have to give it a shot.

HoosTrax · Apr 11, 2012

It's an odd feeling looking at screenshots of areas you've experienced in flat, non-isometric 2D. A little disorienting.

So there are only human PCs in Avernum? No Slithzerikai (lizardmen) or Nephil (kitties)?

The Technomancer · Apr 11, 2012

HoosTrax said:
It's an odd feeling looking at screenshots of areas you've experienced in flat, non-isometric 2D. A little disorienting.

So there are only human PCs in Avernum? No Slithzerikai (lizardmen) or Nephil (kitties)?

Oh good question. That's very weird if so. I haven't had a chance to actually start playing yet.
EDIT: Maybe its not. Thinking about it weren't you only humans in the original Avernum as well for story reasons? I know you could also have Slith and Nephil members by the third game...

HoosTrax · Apr 11, 2012

The_Technomancer said:
Oh good question. That's very weird if so. I haven't had a chance to actually start playing yet.
EDIT: Maybe its not. Thinking about it weren't you only humans in the original Avernum as well for story reasons? I know you could also have Slith and Nephil members by the third game...

Hmm, I'm not sure actually. Exile 2 & 3 definitely had the Slith and kitties. Exile 1, I'll be honest -- I barely played it, for the same reason I couldn't get into Civ 1 after starting out the series with Civ 2. So it's quite possible that Exile 1 never had the option of playing as the beast races.

His art quality has definitely improved though (or is someone else doing that now?).

It's a good day for old-school RPG fans.

Retro · Apr 11, 2012

Wow. I never expected to see another Exile game. I liked Realmz a bit more, but this was still pretty good.

DaBuddaDa · Apr 11, 2012

I'm sad it will probably take another 2-3 years before we see Exile/Avenum 3 ported to this new engine. That's my favorite classic CRPG of all time.

Alexios · Apr 11, 2012

HoosTrax said:
So there are only human PCs in Avernum? No Slithzerikai (lizardmen) or Nephil (kitties)?

Yes, humans only as far as I can tell, there are 15 appearances/portraits to choose from (independently of skills etc), all human.

HoosTrax · Apr 11, 2012

DaBuddaDa said:
I'm sad it will probably take another 2-3 years before we see Exile/Avenum 3 ported to this new engine. That's my favorite classic CRPG of all time.

I actually really disliked the "time limit" or world decay that was in Exile 3. I'm a completionist, and I love to explore every single dungeon and out-of-the-way area, and I felt pressured to limit that exploration to prevent the towns from decaying and NPCs from dying. I think I ended up using the game editor to keep setting time back.

I also remember a really annoying dungeon

with directional conveyor belts and golems everywhere

.

The Technomancer · Apr 11, 2012

I just installed the old Avernum to check and yeah, it was humans only there as well.

DaBuddaDa · Apr 11, 2012

HoosTrax said:
I actually really disliked the "time limit" or world decay that was in Exile 3. I'm a completionist, and I love to explore every single dungeon and out-of-the-way area, and I felt pressured to limit that exploration to prevent the towns from decaying and NPCs from dying.

That at the time was pretty cool and unheard of and a big reason I loved it

Another reason is I was 14 when I played it.

Torraz · Apr 11, 2012

Thanks for reminding me I have to continue Avadon: The Black Fortress.

How do these spiderweb games relate to each other? Can one play them in any order storywise? Are there massive gameplay improvements that make it unwise to play the older games after one has tasted the "improved" newer ones?

The Technomancer · Apr 11, 2012

Torraz said:
Thanks for reminding me I have to continue Avadon: The Black Fortress.

How do these spiderweb games relate to each other? Can one play them in any order storywise? Are there massive gameplay improvements that make it unwise to play the older games after one has tasted the "improved" newer ones?

Avadon, Avernum and Geneforge are all separate worlds. There are six Avernum games, five Geneforge games, and one Avadon game. This is a remake of Avernum 1 (which was in turn a remake of Exile 1) because Avernum 1 looks like this:

(as well as no longer working on Mac OSX)

Avernum 1-3 are still really great, and the only reason I wouldn't buy them now is because these enhanced versions will be coming over the next few years. 4-6 hold up better graphically but also weren't as compelling for me in terms of story. Geneforge games are pretty universally good, although 2 and 3 are the weakest entries in the series.

HoosTrax · Apr 11, 2012

Fuck it, I bought it. $7.99 is a small price to pay to support a developer that started me off on my love of CRPGs and PC games in general.

Avernum: Crystal Souls can't come quickly enough though -- Exile 2 was my favorite in the trilogy. How do Avernum 4-6 fit it?

Ledsen · Apr 11, 2012

Retro said:
Wow. I never expected to see another Exile game. I liked Realmz a bit more, but this was still pretty good.

THESE GUYS DID REALMZ?

*remembers hours spent with the Mac demo as a kid, never knowing anything about the game except the name*

I thought Realmz was a story-less tactical rpg, kind of like advance wars with an overworld. that's how I remember it from the demo.

The Technomancer · Apr 11, 2012

Ledsen said:
THESE GUYS DID REALMZ?

*remembers hours spent with the Mac demo as a kid, never knowing anything about the game except the name*

I thought Realmz was a story-less tactical rpg, kind of like advance wars with an overworld. that's how I remember it from the demo.

No, this isn't from the Realmz guys. The comparison was made because it was stylistically similar I think.

Retro · Apr 11, 2012

Ledsen said:
THESE GUYS DID REALMZ?

*remembers hours spent with the Mac demo as a kid, never knowing anything about the game except the name*

I thought Realmz was a story-less tactical rpg, kind of like advance wars with an overworld. that's how I remember it from the demo.

No, but they were very similar and popular around the same time. Realmz was done by Fantasoft, which is now pretty much dead. The TSR Legal Maneuvering forced Tim Phillips to edit the shit out of Realmz or get sued and after that it lost the charm and it seemed like he lost his interest in it.

Realmz is free now and it's available on the PC, but it's post-TSR so... kind of a mess. It did have some story, but only if you dug around and looked for it. It was definitely rocking that tile-based strategy rpg feel, but only because it basically cloned D&D... which is why TSR was up his ass about it.

Torraz · Apr 12, 2012

The_Technomancer said:
Avadon, Avernum and Geneforge are all separate worlds. There are six Avernum games, five Geneforge games, and one Avadon game. This is a remake of Avernum 1 (which was in turn a remake of Exile 1) because Avernum 1 looks like this:
[IM]http://www.avernum.com/images/avernumold/beingbad.JPG[/IMG]
(as well as no longer working on Mac OSX)

Avernum 1-3 are still really great, and the only reason I wouldn't buy them now is because these enhanced versions will be coming over the next few years. 4-6 hold up better graphically but also weren't as compelling for me in terms of story. Geneforge games are pretty universally good, although 2 and 3 are the weakest entries in the series.

Thank you for the clarification!

I guess that means I will stick with what I have for now: avadon, and the geneforge saga (all 5 games) I got from steam.

DaBuddaDa · Apr 12, 2012

Ledsen said:
I thought Realmz was a story-less tactical rpg, kind of like advance wars with an overworld. that's how I remember it from the demo.

Realmz wasn't a proper, epic RPG game itself per se, it was a collection of smaller "scenarios" that were purchased modern DLC-style. That said there was plenty of story elements in the scenarios, it wasn't pure strategy combat/exploration.

Munin · Apr 12, 2012

His art direction is still a total mess..that's what we got a remake of a remake for? I loved Geneforge 2 and 3 but his constant re-use of assets, churning out of remakes and no intention at all to improve any part of the presentation significantly is getting tiring, there's just no excuse anymore. I know he operates on shoestring budgets, but I'm just tired of seeing the same stuff in every single fucking game, and there's at least one of them a year. And yeah, his writing is good, but not so amazing that it can be an excuse to disregard everything else.

I'll stick to Eschalon.

Alexios · Apr 12, 2012

Munin said:
His art direction is still a total mess..that's what we got a remake of a remake for? I loved Geneforge 2 and 3 but his constant re-use of assets, churning out of remakes and no intention at all to improve any part of the presentation significantly is getting tiring, there's just no excuse anymore. I know he operates on shoestring budgets, but I'm just tired of seeing the same stuff in every single fucking game, and there's at least one of them a year. And yeah, his writing is good, but not so amazing that it can be an excuse to disregard everything else.

I'll stick to Eschalon.

I think they've improved significantly, up to a level where they're acceptable for me, as they previously weren't. Smooth scrolling, animations, better depth emulation, better character artwork, etc, help a ton. The Eschalon games have been shallow, for me very disappointing, and not that much better looking either. I may not even get the third if they don't show significant improvements in the mechanics, story telling, overall depth, and ways to escalate the end game without turning it into brainless turn based Diablo.

Toma · Apr 12, 2012

How does it compare to Avadon, gameplay-depth wise? Story?

Deleted member 17706 · Apr 12, 2012

I should try Avadon again. I liked the idea, but the graphics really turned me off. They just looked so cheap. That developer really needs a new artist.

The Technomancer · Apr 12, 2012

Toma said:
How does it compare to Avadon, gameplay-depth wise? Story?

Gameplay-wise its much less linear and more similar to the late-80s early-90s CRPGs. Pretty much open-world. Storywise its also less focused, with three large questlines that you can complete at your leisure among sidequesting and exploring.

Dice · Apr 12, 2012

Alright you bastard, I got this game. Mostly because I played Avadon for several hours yesterday and then read dev blog/interviews on this.

Thoughts on Avadon/this:
-So basically from what I've gathered in Avadon, you're a ~~spectre~~ Hand and can do what you want. I haven't seen a lot of consequence for my actions yet, so I'm just going to make my judgments on the basis of if they seem like an asshole or not. Example:

This ogre that said he was just taking orders, doesn't want to fight, blah blah. Sorry buddy, but you still fucked with people until I showed up. You disturbed the peace/caused deaths for money, so I'm gonna fuck you up whether for Avadon or not.

-Plot seems too obviously foreshadowed right now. Hopefully it doesn't end up as obvious as I think.
-Interesting how it's basically like you're playing on a D&D board. Mentions of large dragon & ogre in text but they are only a little bit bigger than me on screen.
-I love the charm of the writing, and if this is his somewhat boring shit (according to him on his blog) then Avernum should be really fun.
-I'll try to stick with Avadon but if I get bored I'll probably move on to Avernum.
-Geneforge seems like a more interesting concept and I prefer its take on the graphics but Avernum seems like the better game design and it's wasn't $20 (I shouldn't have even spent the $8 for this)

I still have Planescape, BG2, IWD, Arcanum, Fallout 1 & 2 to go through yet I am playing these. Why? Accessibility. No need to remember so much stuff from one place to the next.

Zefah said:
I should try Avadon again. I liked the idea, but the graphics really turned me off. They just looked so cheap. That developer really needs a new artist.

It's a team of three guys, lol. The graphics are simplistic, but I think they are very classy. So many games with tile-based art end up being garrish, incohesive, and difficult to scan. Having a clean look with just enough flair is a similarly difficult balance to designing the perfect website, yet necessariy to play for hours without fatigue. I think it greatly succeeds.

AppleBlade · Apr 14, 2012

Where does this rank among other iOS WRPG's?

Dice · Apr 14, 2012

MrVargas said:
Where does this rank among other iOS WRPG's?

#1

Toma · Apr 14, 2012

The_Technomancer said:
Gameplay-wise its much less linear and more similar to the late-80s early-90s CRPGs. Pretty much open-world. Storywise its also less focused, with three large questlines that you can complete at your leisure among sidequesting and exploring.

Sounds great, thanks

Never played the Avernum games.

The Technomancer · Apr 14, 2012

MrVargas said:
Where does this rank among other iOS WRPG's?

I don't play many iOS games but unless there are a bevy of high-quality games that would have been worth full price in the 90s its probably pretty damn high.

Javaman · Apr 15, 2012

Just left the second town and I freaking love the game so far. Turnbased grid combat that doesn't pull you out of the area. AP points seem kind of pointless since you can still attack as long as you have at least one point left. My only annoyance is having to pull up the inventory every few steps to view items on the ground. Surely there is a more streamlined way?

Dice · Apr 15, 2012

Javaman said:
My only annoyance is having to pull up the inventory every few steps to view items on the ground. Surely there is a more streamlined way?

Yeah, that's my only real problem with it as well. I think it would be a good enough fix if pushing the inventory key again closed the window instead of having to push escape or click on the green button. Then this isn't too annoying but it would be ideal if I could set camera panning to WASD instead of the arrow keys.

Actually, what the hell, I'm emailing them about this. It's a small team so maybe they'll patch it in. Quality feedback is the beauty of extending your fanbase.

Javaman · Apr 15, 2012

I would love it if there was a small window in the corner of the screen that showed all of the items on the ground around the party. Maybe a 9x9 grid the same sive as the inventory screen. That way you can see what you're walking past and decide if you want to open up the inventory to scoop it up. As it is it really removes the immersivness having to open the window every few steps. How large is the AOE of picking stuff up? It almost seems like it surrounds the whole party but I hadn't been able to figure it out yet.

The Technomancer · Apr 15, 2012

Hm, I haven't played this version yet (waiting for my next paycheck). I'm trying to figure out if the inventory thing just didn't bother me in the previous version or if he changed something in the interface

Andiie · Apr 15, 2012

I bought this game last night, I loved what little of it I played. Just got out of the tutorial area.

I'm normally not a fan of these games given how big the time commitment can be but this game seems to just get straight into it without too much fussing about which I feel is a problem for me with other popular rpgs.

Like others have said the only thing that I've disliked is the ground mechanic. It's not too bad, it's just cumbersome to use all the time. At least give a faster way to close the window.

Karak · Apr 15, 2012

Honestly these guys games are more of an event for me then almost any other game or game series and has been since the second Geneforge for me. I brutally love their stuff.

HoosTrax · Apr 16, 2012

The game definitely feels like it's been updated to be more streamlined, modern, and accessible.

- move-to-cursor, instead of manually maneuvering your party everywhere
- conventional dialogue system (no more typing in responses manually)
- conventional skill tree, along with traits (sort of similar to AD&D feats)
- secret areas are a bit more obvious (no more walking into every wall to see if it's a secret passage), and the wall buttons are super-obvious
- signposts are shown automatically (the examine button is gone now?)
- no more starving to death if you run out of rations?

The world itself, the storytelling, and the overall spirit of the game remains intact though.

Gvaz · Apr 16, 2012

I'm late to spiderweb but since The Black Fortress, Spiderweb is my new favorite developer.

zkylon · Apr 16, 2012

I feel so shallow every time I pass on one of Spiderweb's games because they look like they do. Someday...

Dice · Apr 16, 2012

Why would you pass up a great game for looking nice?

freenudemacusers · Apr 16, 2012

iPad version??? hnngg buying asap

CushVA · Apr 16, 2012

Can I do anything with all the various bricks (clay, iron etc) and crystals that are lying around?

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