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Dalai Lama tells his Facebook friends that religion “is no longer adequate”

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Dalai Lama tells his Facebook friends that religion “is no longer adequate”

This past Monday, people who have the Dalai Lama as a Facebook friend found this little gem in their newsfeed:

original.png


All the world's major religions, with their emphasis on love, compassion, patience, tolerance, and forgiveness can and do promote inner values. But the reality of the world today is that grounding ethics in religion is no longer adequate. This is why I am increasingly convinced that the time has come to find a way of thinking about spirituality and ethics beyond religion altogether.

The Dalai Lama's advice sounds startling familiar — one that echos the sentiment put forth by outspoken atheist Sam Harris who argues that science can answer moral questions. The Dalai Lama is no stranger to scientific discourse, and has developed a great fascination with neuroscience in particular. It's very possible, therefore, that his thinking has aligned with Harris.

In a recent interview with the Globe and Mail, Harris had this to say about science and how it should be used to inform our moral and ethical sensibilities:

The moment we admit that questions of right and wrong, and good and evil, are actually questions about human and animal well-being, we see that science can, in principle, answer such questions. Human experience depends on everything that can influence states of the human brain, ranging from changes in our genome to changes in the global economy. The relevant details of genetics, neurobiology, psychology, sociology, economics etc. are fantastically complicated, but these are domains of facts, and they fall squarely within the purview of science.

We should reserve the notion of "morality" for the ways in which we can affect one another's experience for better or worse. Some people use the term "morality" differently, of course, but I think we have a scientific responsibility to focus the conversation so as to make it most useful. We define terms like "medicine," "causation," "law" and "theory" very much to the detriment of homeopathy, astrology, voodoo, Christian Science and other branches of human ignorance, and there is no question that we enjoy the same freedom when speaking about concepts like "right" and "wrong," and "good" and "evil." Once we acknowledge that "morality" relates to questions of human and animal well-being, then there is no reason to doubt that a prescriptive (rather than merely descriptive) science of morality is possible. After all, there are principles of biology, psychology, sociology and economics that will allow us to flourish in this world, and it is clearly possible for us not to flourish due to ignorance of these principles.

It's important to remember that Tibetan Buddhists, while rejecting belief in God and the soul, still cling to various metaphysical beliefs, including karma, infinite rebirths, and reincarnation. But interestingly, the Dalai Lama once had this to say on the subject:

My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation: if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.

Other Buddhists, however, such as Stephen Batchelor, argue that Buddhism should be stripped of all its metaphysical baggage and simplified down to its basic philosophical and existential tenets — a suggestion that has given rise to secular Buddhism.
http://io9.com/5942616/dalai-lama-tells-his-facebook-friends-that-religion-is-no-longer-adequate
 
Tenzin Gyatso said:
This is why I am increasingly convinced that the time has come to find a way of thinking about spirituality and ethics beyond religion altogether.

This is why I fucking love this guy and I'm an atheist.

secular Buddhism

This is the first time I've heard of this, but I'd sign up for that newsletter.
 
Both seem to be championing a more adaptive morality, seeing as how religious texts can't possibly answer every question we are likely to have in the next 2000 years. That's something I could get behind.

Eugenics


Science and morailty don't mix.

How do you feel about prenatal screening?
 

i-Lo

Member
Here hear! Dalai Lama should also open an account on GAF for he shall numerous like minded creatures.
 
cool. i was just debating this topic with my mother, who does not think morality (edit: i mean ethics) can exist without religion.

in my view, true ethics are behaving ethically because it is the right thing to do, and not just to avoid being punished. religion holds this back because it is so focused on submission to authority and avoiding punishment.
 
cool. i was just debating this topic with my mother, who does not think morality can exist without religion.

in my view, true ethics are behaving ethically because it is the right thing to do, and not just to avoid being punished. religion holds this back because it is so focused on submission to authority and avoiding punishment.
What is the difference between morals and ethics?
 

drspeedy

Member
One more reason that if, theoretically, everyone everywhere were allowed to grow up, interact and live their life without knowing what a "religion" was, we'd all basically be Buddhist.

Still with the glasses, though. LASIK, O enlightened one!
 

Riposte

Member
How scientists usually approach morality: Throw out the fables and just accept that the messages are true out of sheer "goodness" without much good reason (so, anti-scientifically).
 

Shambles

Member
One more reason that if, theoretically, everyone everywhere were allowed to grow up, interact and live their life without knowing what a "religion" was, we'd all basically be Buddhist.

Still with the glasses, though. LASIK, O enlightened one!

We might all be buddist but we'd still be the same assholes we are now.
 

BeauRoger

Unconfirmed Member
Adaptation and openness to change truly are hallmarks of a great men. So many are stuck in their ways of thinking, afraid of change. Guy is a visionary no doubt.
 
How scientists usually approach morality: Throw out the fables and just accept that the messages are true out of sheer "goodness" without much good reason (so, anti-scientifically).
Don't forget replacing the word "moral" with "ethical" at every instance to make it sound more secular.

What is the difference between morals and ethics?
Read Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics and you will have your answer.
 

Khezu

Member
It is really weird that the Dalai lama has a facebook account.

Then again I have no concept of what the DL actually is or does, and only know of him because of pop culture.
 

AlphaSnake

...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
"Share that with the Dalai Lama...jackass"

I had no idea Dalai Lama has a Facebook.
 

Hale-XF11

Member
I fucking LOVE that man! <3

It's so refreshing to hear someone of his reputation acknowledge the fact that our institutions are severely outdated and quite frankly, no longer relevant.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
That it may shock some to hear the high ranking representative of a religion (or at least, quasi-religion) say something supportive of rationalism and science may demonstrate how westerners can have a cartoonish or simplified view of the realm of spirituality and spiritual philosophies. Everything in the west is turning into the Big End War between team science and team jesus, with Islam running around with a trollface on or some shit like that.

Even 'new atheists' like Sam Harris have been forced to admit that eastern philosophy and some religions present useful ways to deal with being human, ethics, and morality. Even if they try to turn "spiritual" into a distasteful word even as they compliment those traditions.

And I do think a problem that team science has, is that many of its fans want to take apart religion and kick it in the nuts, but don't seem to have really thought about what they're going to replace it with in terms of ethics and morality. The irony is that in western culture, people who have grown up or turned atheist don't often appear to consider that much of the basic moral framework around them that is nearly invisible, and taken for granted, came in part from some religious traditions. I wonder how much of the inner peace and tranquility that many avoided publicity material atheists say they feel without religion, is actually based on having grown up in, and been conditioned by, a society deeply affected by previous religious thinking.

Now, to be fair, there are some cases for secular, rational, and scientific ethics starting to appear and become more sophisticated. For instance, there is the observation that in a purely rational manner, it is possible to determine what harms people - and the trick is to realize that while all people can be harmed or suffer in certain universal and non-subjective ways, there is a near infinity of ways for people to live happily. Failure to recognize this nuance seems to lead to flawed secular utopia schemes where an 'ideal' way of living is rationally calculated, installed in society, then promptly falls to fucking pieces when people continue being human.

In part, all this is a reason why I don't feel the need to call myself an atheist. I don't believe in the literalness of any particular gods (that are actually gods in the way western religion thinks at least, ha ha), but that's merely the result of realizing the subjective nature of human narration about the universe.

I'll just leave it with that nice quote of Carl Sagan, who is so often held up as a figure among more crusading atheist types, including those who are afraid to say the S-word:

“Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light&#8208;years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our emotions in the presence of great art or music or literature, or acts of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr. The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both.”
 
That it may shock some to hear the high ranking representative of a religion (or at least, quasi-religion) say something supportive of rationalism and science may demonstrate how westerners can have a cartoonish or simplified view of the realm of spirituality and spiritual philosophies. Everything in the west is turning into the Big End War between team science and team jesus, with Islam running around with a trollface on or some shit like that.

Even 'new atheists' like Sam Harris have been forced to admit that eastern philosophy and some religions present useful ways to deal with being human, ethics, and morality. Even if they try to turn "spiritual" into a distasteful word even as they compliment those traditions.

And I do think a problem that team science has, is that many of its fans want to take apart religion and kick it in the nuts, but don't seem to have really thought about what they're going to replace it with in terms of ethics and morality. The irony is that in western culture, people who have grown up or turned atheist don't often appear to consider that much of the basic moral framework around them that is nearly invisible, and taken for granted, came in part from some religious traditions. I wonder how much of the inner peace and tranquility that many avoided publicity material atheists say they feel without religion, is actually based on having grown up in, and been conditioned by, a society deeply affected by previous religious thinking.

Now, to be fair, there are some cases for secular, rational, and scientific ethics starting to appear and become more sophisticated. For instance, there is the observation that in a purely rational manner, it is possible to determine what harms people - and the trick is to realize that while all people can be harmed or suffer in certain universal and non-subjective ways, there is a near infinity of ways for people to live happily. Failure to recognize this nuance seems to lead to flawed secular utopia schemes where an 'ideal' way of living is rationally calculated, installed in society, then promptly falls to fucking pieces when people continue being human.

In part, all this is a reason why I don't feel the need to call myself an atheist. I don't believe in the literalness of any particular gods (that are actually gods in the way western religion thinks at least, ha ha), but that's merely the result of realizing the subjective nature of human narration about the universe.

I'll just leave it with that nice quote of Carl Sagan, who is so often held up as a figure among more crusading atheist types, including those who are afraid to say the S-word:

&#8220;Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light&#8208;years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our emotions in the presence of great art or music or literature, or acts of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr. The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both.&#8221;

Sagan died far too young. Also, another one of my favorite humans, Walt Whitman, viewed the world with an amazing cohesion of science and spirituality.
 
his-holiness-the-14th-dalai-lama-if-science-proves-some-belief-of-buddhism-wrong-then-buddhism-will-have-to-change.jpg


I have no idea what kind of religion buddhism is, but I like it.
I like the man too. It's awesome to see a spiritual leader willing to change with the times and facts. Way less blood would be spilled if more leaders were this open to change and discussion.
 

q_q

Member
I've never understood this argument of Sam Harris's that science can answer moral questions. Science is simply a method for discovering facts about the world around us. It says nothing about how humans should treat each other or how we should view the world and our place in it. Now for certain, science can and should inform our decisions about such matters, but it cannot make those decisions for us. Morality will always belong to the realm of philosophy, not science, but I think the best philosophies are those that are heavily based off of scientific knowledge. Maybe that's what Harris means, but if so he seems to word it oddly.
 
That it may shock some to hear the high ranking representative of a religion (or at least, quasi-religion) say something supportive of rationalism and science may demonstrate how westerners can have a cartoonish or simplified view of the realm of spirituality and spiritual philosophies.

I don't think this is the case here.

For me, the "shock" is that he is so explicit about it.

He's written and spoken about a respect for science and how science and religion can collaborate and learn from each other, but -- as I interpret it -- this amounts to a rejection of religion in favor of spirituality, reason, and science.
 

BlueWord

Member
I like the man too. It's awesome to see a spiritual leader willing to change with the times and facts. Way less blood would be spilled if more leaders were this open to change and discussion.

Actually, I really disagree. You'd just see a lot of small sects pop-up with self-proclaimed leaders, who would probably turn against everyone else. Especially if it was in a highly religious and volatile region, ie. some Middle Eastern countries and many in Africa.

Culture will always have a bigger influence on people than religion; religion may tie into the culture, but people are going to bend it to fit their own values and the values of their culture.
 
That it may shock some to hear the high ranking representative of a religion (or at least, quasi-religion) say something supportive of rationalism and science may demonstrate how westerners can have a cartoonish or simplified view of the realm of spirituality and spiritual philosophies. Everything in the west is turning into the Big End War between team science and team jesus, with Islam running around with a trollface on or some shit like that.

Even 'new atheists' like Sam Harris have been forced to admit that eastern philosophy and some religions present useful ways to deal with being human, ethics, and morality. Even if they try to turn "spiritual" into a distasteful word even as they compliment those traditions.

And I do think a problem that team science has, is that many of its fans want to take apart religion and kick it in the nuts, but don't seem to have really thought about what they're going to replace it with in terms of ethics and morality. The irony is that in western culture, people who have grown up or turned atheist don't often appear to consider that much of the basic moral framework around them that is nearly invisible, and taken for granted, came in part from some religious traditions. I wonder how much of the inner peace and tranquility that many avoided publicity material atheists say they feel without religion, is actually based on having grown up in, and been conditioned by, a society deeply affected by previous religious thinking.

Now, to be fair, there are some cases for secular, rational, and scientific ethics starting to appear and become more sophisticated. For instance, there is the observation that in a purely rational manner, it is possible to determine what harms people - and the trick is to realize that while all people can be harmed or suffer in certain universal and non-subjective ways, there is a near infinity of ways for people to live happily. Failure to recognize this nuance seems to lead to flawed secular utopia schemes where an 'ideal' way of living is rationally calculated, installed in society, then promptly falls to fucking pieces when people continue being human.

In part, all this is a reason why I don't feel the need to call myself an atheist. I don't believe in the literalness of any particular gods (that are actually gods in the way western religion thinks at least, ha ha), but that's merely the result of realizing the subjective nature of human narration about the universe.

I'll just leave it with that nice quote of Carl Sagan, who is so often held up as a figure among more crusading atheist types, including those who are afraid to say the S-word:

&#8220;Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light&#8208;years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our emotions in the presence of great art or music or literature, or acts of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr. The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both.&#8221;

A couple of things.

First off, the things that I think Sam Harris would argue for in faith traditions would be meditation, reflection, and even perhaps prayer. These are all things that can be argued and studied why they are beneficial to individuals. Sam's appreciation for Eastern traditions have less to do with religion and more to do with ethics, philosophy, and spirituality, which leads me to...

Spirituality is not "religion". I don't think any atheists/freethinkers/whatever are saying that spirituality is meritless. There are transcendent, undefinable things that move us deeply. They're all pretty subjective - what may move me, may not move you, etc., but they still exist.

Do religious texts have instructional value? Narratives that could be used as a lesson? Words of poetry or wisdom? Certainly. The problem is they have two magic words: "God" and "Heaven" and they are tied to rigid dogma.

I don't see spirituality and an atheism as mutually exclusive.

Have you read this: "In Defense of "Spiritual"?
 
I've never understood this argument of Sam Harris's that science can answer moral questions. Science is simply a method for discovering facts about the world around us. It says nothing about how humans should treat each other or how we should view the world and our place in it. Now for certain, science can and should inform our decisions about such matters, but it cannot make those decisions for us. Morality will always belong to the realm of philosophy, not science, but I think the best philosophies are those that are heavily based off of scientific knowledge. Maybe that's what Harris means, but if so he seems to word it oddly.

Why can't science look into the facts of morality? Why don't piranhas eat each other? Why do groups of animals acting ethically towards each other perform better than those that are selfish? I think science can do a lot to inform our philosophies. It's wrong for either side to completely disregard the other.
 

Neo C.

Member
I like him, even more because my sister-in-law hates him (she's mainland chinese).

100% agreed with his message.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I don't think any atheists/freethinkers/whatever are saying that spirituality is meritless. There are transcendent, undefinable things that move us deeply. They're all pretty subjective - what may move me, may not move you, etc., but they still exist.

f7LO7.jpg
 

Sorc3r3r

Member
Bah, another one is givin up, it's becoming really hard, almost impossible.

The hope lies in that "almost" right now, and at least that almost will never ever go away, whatever they will try.
 

D_prOdigy

Member
This is why I am increasingly convinced that the time has come to find a way of thinking about spirituality and ethics beyond religion altogether.

So basically Ethics.

Serious ethical thought has never been grounded in religion anyway.
 
Religion should be one of (many) variables taken into account as we compile a broader ethical calculus, whose multivariate functions could help provide a workable bridge between the spiritual shortcomings of moral relativism and the inflexible, progress-stunting moral absolutism.

Or whatever, I just want to see more techs from SMAC realized in my lifetime.
 

B!TCH

how are you, B!TCH? How is your day going, B!ITCH?
Why do you think people still follow religions despite any evidence that might contradict the validity of their chosen religion?

Religion is about controlling one's natural instincts. There is a cultural component to it as well of course, but at it's core religion is about control. Do you think reason and ethics are convincing enough that it could replace this function of religion for the majority of people?
 
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