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Are videogames art? (Serious discussions welcome)

Oersted

Member
The Museum of Modern Art in NYC announced the first 14 video games are added to its permanent collection.


Are video games art? They sure are, but they are also design, and a design approach is what we chose for this new foray into this universe. The games are selected as outstanding examples of interaction design—a field that MoMA has already explored and collected extensively, and one of the most important and oft-discussed expressions of contemporary design creativity. Our criteria, therefore, emphasize not only the visual quality and aesthetic experience of each game, but also the many other aspects—from the elegance of the code to the design of the player’s behavior—that pertain to interaction design. In order to develop an even stronger curatorial stance, over the past year and a half we have sought the advice of scholars, digital conservation and legal experts, historians, and critics, all of whom helped us refine not only the criteria and the wish list, but also the issues of acquisition, display, and conservation of digital artifacts that are made even more complex by the games’ interactive nature. This acquisition allows the Museum to study, preserve, and exhibit video games as part of its Architecture and Design collection.

Full press release here. The thread about this is here.

That caused some controversy, for example:

Casting my mind back to the philosophical debate I spied on in Oxford, I remember a pretty good argument for why interactive immersive digital games are NOT art. Walk around the Museum of Modern Art, look at those masterpieces it holds by Picasso and Jackson Pollock, and what you are seeing is a series of personal visions. A work of art is one person's reaction to life. Any definition of art that robs it of this inner response by a human creator is a worthless definition. Art may be made with a paintbrush or selected as a ready-made, but it has to be an act of personal imagination.

The worlds created by electronic games are more like playgrounds where experience is created by the interaction between a player and a programme. The player cannot claim to impose a personal vision of life on the game, while the creator of the game has ceded that responsibility. No one "owns" the game, so there is no artist, and therefore no work of art.

source

Before that, there was this famous piece from Roger Ebert, titled "Video games can never be art" .

But we could play all day with definitions, and find exceptions to every one. For example, I tend to think of art as usually the creation of one artist. Yet a cathedral is the work of many, and is it not art? One could think of it as countless individual works of art unified by a common purpose. Is not a tribal dance an artwork, yet the collaboration of a community? Yes, but it reflects the work of individual choreographers. Everybody didn't start dancing all at once.

One obvious difference between art and games is that you can win a game. It has rules, points, objectives, and an outcome. Santiago might cite a immersive game without points or rules, but I would say then it ceases to be a game and becomes a representation of a story, a novel, a play, dance, a film. Those are things you cannot win; you can only experience them.

....

Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art? Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan and Dick Butkus never said they thought their games were an art form. Nor did Shi Hua Chen, winner of the $500,000 World Series of Mah Jong in 2009. Why aren't gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves? They have my blessing, not that they care.

Do they require validation? In defending their gaming against parents, spouses, children, partners, co-workers or other critics, do they want to be able to look up from the screen and explain, "I'm studying a great form of art?" Then let them say it, if it makes them happy.

I would also recommend the TEDx-talk Ebert is referring to.

Are Video Games Art? Game innovator Kellee Santiago insists that games are more than entertainment.

So any thoughts on this?

350px-PicassoGuernica.jpg



 
Video games are art, but they have inherent flaws that make them worse than cinema or literature as a narrative medium.
 

Venfayth

Member
Is art art? Art is a subjective thing, there will always be people who say yes it is, or no it's not.

Personally, I think it's hard to say that some games ARE NOT more are less artistic than other games, which leads me to believe that yes, games can be art. But you have to be careful how you define it, and always be specific when you're arguing one way or the other.

Is Braid visually more artistic than Minesweeper? What about a game like Symphony of the Night or Journey? I think it's undeniable that Braid IS more visually artistic than Minesweeper, but against Symphony of the Night or Journey it's tough to say.

Do we stop at visuals, or do we compare other elements of games when we're considering if they're artistic or not? What about strategy, concepts, music and sound, story, etc.

It's very hard for me, personally, to say that games are not artistic. If someone wants to argue that they're purely art, or that they can be purely art, that is not something I am willing to argue at this time.

edit: Sorry for all the double negatives :( Too lazy to rephrase
 

jwhit28

Member
There is a German word that means the summation of all the parts of a performance. I can't think of what it is but add gameplay to that and I still think it is art.
 

Rubius

Member
Video games are pretty much the combinaison of every form of art out there minus smell and touch.
Its a Book, a Video, a Music, A Picture. By our power combine we are, Video games.
 

Red UFO

Member
Video games are a ratio of art and engineering. Some games have a greater ratio of art to engineering. I think calling the entire medium 'art' is a fallacy.
 

RurouniZel

Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
It's an interesting dilemma. On the one hand, videogames are created by several artists and designers from several different artistic practices to create a unique work.

On the other hand, videogames are by their very nature, incomplete art. You can put a painting up on a wall, a movie onto a projector, actors on a stage, an installation or statue in a public space, or a piece of music over speakers, and the work will be available to any present, or even no one. Even if no one is there to see it, it's there and it can reach completion.

Videogames however require input from their audience. Without a person to manipulate the art onscreen, it will not proceed to its conclusion. It will sit still and do nothing, it will not advance or display itself for all to see. It will just loop at the title screen and nothing more.
 

Rubius

Member
Video games are a ratio of art and engineering. Some games have a greater ratio of art to engineering. I think calling the entire medium 'art' is a fallacy.

Is Freddy Got Fingered art? Yes. Jackass? Yes. Art is something that exist simply to create a feeling. A babby drawing is art as much a Picasso is art. Freddy Got Fingered is art as much as Black Swan is art. Call of Duty is art as much Bastion is art.
 

Oersted

Member

Thats a strawman. Are those responsible for adding those 14 video games to the permanent collection necessarly younger than, for example, Jonathan Jones, who critized the decision? Sorry, this kind of argumentation leads to nowhere.

To that thought experiment, which is factually a suggestive question. It depends. That leads to the question "Are videogames art?". It doesn´t explain if that is the case.

Btw: Did you read what Ebert was saying?

Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art? Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan and Dick Butkus never said they thought their games were an art form. Nor did Shi Hua Chen, winner of the $500,000 World Series of Mah Jong in 2009. Why aren't gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves? They have my blessing, not that they care.

Do they require validation? In defending their gaming against parents, spouses, children, partners, co-workers or other critics, do they want to be able to look up from the screen and explain, "I'm studying a great form of art?" Then let them say it, if it makes them happy.
 

Rubius

Member
Videogames however require input from their audience. Without a person to manipulate the art onscreen, it will not proceed to its conclusion. It will sit still and do nothing, it will not advance or display itself for all to see. It will just loop at the title screen and nothing more.

I think this is also true for Music, Pictures and Video. Sure they will play themself, but without the introspection of a human being, all art is meaningless. A lot of people listen to music, not everybody LISTEN to music.
 
Thats a strawman. Are those responsible for adding those 14 video games to the permanent collection necessarly younger than, for example, Jonathan Jones, who critized the decision? Sorry, this kind of argumentation leads to nowhere.

To that thought experiment, which is factually a suggestive question. It depends. That leads to the question "Are videogames art?". It doesn´t explain if that is the case.

Btw: Did you read what Ebert was saying?


I don't wholeheartedly agree with that PA strip, never did, but I thought it was at least a somewhat interesting contribution, given Mike and Jerry's place in this industry.
 

RurouniZel

Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
I think this is also true for Music, Pictures and Video. Sure they will play themself, but without the introspection of a human being, all art is meaningless. A lot of people listen to music, not everybody LISTEN to music.

True, but it doesn't take any effort to look at a picture/movie or listen to music, only effort to study it. Some people can play a game and never complete it because they just don't have the skill.
 
Yes. Anyone who says no has a very loose definition of art and/or are snobs to the term -- you know, the kind of people who declare anything short of a Stanley Kubrick film or Leonardo da Vinci painting as being non-artistic schlock.

And hell, if Rothko's work is considered art, then mother fucking Angry Birds sure as hell is.
 

Kurdel

Banned
ITT, people with different barriers for entry for what they consider "art".

Personaly, I think that a media becomes art when it becomes more than the sum of it's parts with or without the intent of the creator or creators.

So yeah, as soon as those pixels form an image or make me do something that makes me feel something more, I consider it art.

But the trap in this topic is no one can be wrong, and that is why it's going nowhere.
 

Rubius

Member
True, but it doesn't take any effort to look at a picture/movie or listen to music, only effort to study it. Some people can play a game and never complete it because they just don't have the skill.

It still require a little effort. You can listen to a song to the radio, and simply hear the music. But you have to concentrate a little to understand the meaning, and even more if you start to listening to every single instrument (Love listening to the drum in song for my part).
Video game do introduce the new notion of choice. Its not a linear art piece, but even if you fail at the game, you experienced something nobody else experienced before. You had emotions, feelings from the game.
That's one of the reason why I really dont get people who play music or mute a video game. Its like muting a movie or closing your eyes. You dont get the full experience.
 
Some people take "art" to mean pictures or paintings. That's not true. Art is more than that. It is anything created, including music, movies, photographs, even buildings, furniture, and jewelry. As such, why wouldn't games be art?

There's another word, "artistic." That is generally used for pieces that I guess are more well made and more thought out, for "good" art. Whether a piece of art is artistic is largely opinion, but a work that's not artistic and poorly made is still art.
 

DiscoJer

Member
I think where Ebert is wrong is that he seems to conflate "game" with "gameplay" or "game rules".

Is chess art? No. But are certain chess sets art? Yes. Same with Mahjonng, can you look at an really elaborate set and say it's not a work of art? Playing cards, too. Look at some of the designs, like say, the suicide king? Clearly that is art.

The game with video games. The literal gameplay of pushing buttons or clicking mice might not be art, but the artwork in it is art, the music in it is art, the story in it is art, and even the goal of the game can be art
 
Of course they're fucking art. A matte painting is art. Some games have matte paintings in them. Games can't be less than the sum of their parts.
 

Ostinatto

Member
1 [mass noun] the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

so yeah
 

Risette

A Good Citizen
somebody else said:
But as for the subject of "art and videogames", this will be the only controversial subject I am going to deal with for which no specialized knowledge is necessary. It is such a simple, trivial issue that any mildly intelligent person off the street should be able to understand it, even if he has never touched a videogame in his life. It's basically an issue of semantics. The question "Can games be art?" is nonsensical, and therefore any answer one might come up with for it will also be nonsensical. Put another way: the question is not a question and the answer is not an answer. It's kind of like asking if the "sky" can be "sad". When you ask such a "question" you are using language in an improper way, and the only solution to the "problem" posed by the "question" is for you to simply STOP ASKING IT.

The problem lies with the words "game" and "art". If you type these words into a number of online dictionaries you will get several dozen definitions, which fact should immediately make you suspicious of whether there is any generally accepted definition at all. The short answer is there isn't. Some of mankind's greatest minds have tried defining what a game is and failed, while on the other hand the word "art" is used in so many different contexts that the only thing we are expected to understand when someone refers to something as art is that they are praising it. Like "democracy" and "terrorism", two other popular words that have yet to be clearly defined (and probably never will), the word "art" is often used in a consciously dishonest way.
.
 
I think where Ebert is wrong is that he seems to conflate "game" with "gameplay" or "game rules".

Is chess art? No. But are certain chess sets art? Yes. Same with Mahjonng, can you look at an really elaborate set and say it's not a work of art? Playing cards, too. Look at some of the designs, like say, the suicide king? Clearly that is art.

The game with video games. The literal gameplay of pushing buttons or clicking mice might not be art, but the artwork in it is art, the music in it is art, the story in it is art, and even the goal of the game can be art

Exactly. The player isn't creating art, but experiencing it.

Even if the vast majority videogames don't aim to be "high art" the fact that even a small handful of games are capable of creating long lasting experiences that aim to have an impact beyond just game rules and design is enough to prove that as a medium, games are art.
 

Thoraxes

Member
I don't think of video games themselves as art, but I think video games are artistic, if that makes sense.

Basically video games need Wagner.
 

RurouniZel

Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
It still require a little effort. You can listen to a song to the radio, and simply hear the music. But you have to concentrate a little to understand the meaning, and even more if you start to listening to every single instrument (Love listening to the drum in song for my part).
Video game do introduce the new notion of choice. Its not a linear art piece, but even if you fail at the game, you experienced something nobody else experienced before. You had emotions, feelings from the game.
That's one of the reason why I really dont get people who play music or mute a video game. Its like muting a movie or closing your eyes. You dont get the full experience.

Don't get me wrong, I'm just going through some of the reasons why videogames in particular seem to have difficulty being accepted as an artform, or is perhaps not viewed as such. I get what you're saying completely, but for example with a painting while everyone experiences the painting in a different way they all see the same painting. Same with a song, one person can walk away in tears while another feeling uplifted, but both heard the same song. With videogames the experience can be different for different users like the above, but not necessarily having seen the same thing, however. If I take a path that branches me in a different direction I might not see something someone else did entirely and thus affect my interpretation of the work. If two movie reviewers review the same movie, but each one saw a different ending, of course their reviews would differ. But what makes more "traditional" art more interesting is the debate on how to interpret the same piece of art with no one person viewing/hearing something different than the other. The only difference is the interpretation, not the experience.
 

pargonta

Member
that guardian article is hilarious.

he still thinks of video games as "chess" or "board games".
ebert as well talks about winning and losing and points.
they're stuck in the 80s with definitions from the 50s.
so stupid, but it's good to know these naysayers are now the aging minority.
games (including winning/losing/points games), are of course art and will continue to grow. :)
 

Ranger X

Member
To me it's the exact same thing as music and movies in matter of being "art".
Music can be as much a designed product today and it's not the vision of 1 person but the work of a band + many other added members for all the steps between the songs composition and the day it enters your ears. Just like music can obviously be a "product" and follow formulas (design), videogames do the same. This whole logic also apply to movies. Yet, a movie can be the expression of the mind of one person. Music can also be the expression of the mind of one person. The videogame too.

The only thing that changes from art form to the other there is the interaction level. The music interacts mostly with your ears, the movie interacts with your ears and eyes. The videogame simply is even more interactive. The level of interactivity doesn't decide if something is art or not. All the music, movies and videogames are doing is making you live through feelings, give you an experience. This is always telling something because after all its all about the feeling, it's all entertainment.
 

Izick

Member
Anything that I can enjoy and find emotionally engaging is art. Then again, I'm not one of those pretentious fucks who thinks a Campbell's Soup Can is art if it's set up a certain way though. That's probably judgmental, but hey that's how I feel.

I feel the same way about this pretty much as how I feel with anything, let others think of things how they may and don't care about labels. Labels do nothing. People aren't going to start or stop playing games if someone does or doesn't declare them art. It's not going to make me play more or less. I try enjoy everything for what it is. Like I said earlier, I don't give a fuck about a Campbell's Soup can on a podium, but if others do then good for them.
 
It's subjective from person to person. If it can get an emotional reaction out of you, then I feel it could be considered art. With some exceptions of course.
 

Shepard

Member
Art Definition: "the use of skill and imagination in the creation of aesthetic objects, environments, or experiences that can be shared with others"

Pretty safe to assume videogames are art
 

SkyOdin

Member
The only reason to not define them as art is if you have a strangely specific definition of art, such as defining art to only include things of a certain arbitrary level of perceived quality or appeal to refined tastes. I don't think "art" is really so special of a category that you can exclude stuff from it. There is plenty of really lousy art out there, after all. So obviously something doesn't need to be mind-blowing high quality to be art.

The word "art" really doesn't have much meaning at all. Everything is art. A child's scribbling hung from a refrigerator door by a magnet has equal claim to being art as Mozart's greatest symphony. Whether it is good art or bad art is irrelevant, it is art nonetheless.

The problem is that generations of artists, thinkers, and consumers of art have continuously co-opted the term for selfish purposes. Artists try to monopolize the term for marketing purposes; they try to elevate their works as "works of art" and try to diminish their competitors as "not art" to increase the relative value of their works. Likewise, wealthy consumers of art (including museums and the like) try to increase the perceived value of their collections by placing them on a pedestal and building up a perception that they have some inherent quality that separates them from more common, professional works. In reality, the only difference is a mix of semantics and what market they are buying and selling their goods in.

Furthermore, people have attached too much credibility to the concept of the "artist" as someone strange or special: a person of unusual genius and temperament who creates things normal people cannot. This is one of the empty myths of creativity. Most artists are just normal people doing the job that they like for a paycheck, and it has been that way since the dawn of time. Shakespeare was just an actor and a writer trying to create plays that would sell tickets to audiences. Leonardo da Vinci did most of his paintings on commission. Just because these men were talented and created great works doesn't mean that were somehow fundamentally different in nature from modern equivalents like television script-writers or artists with accounts on Deviant Art who draw for commissions.

By their very natures, videogames are full of art. They have images, music, stories, and cinematic elements. All of these are well-established forms of art, created by professional artists. Furthermore, the gameplay itself, which is designed to create emotions and experiences for the player, is to me a perfectly valid form of art in of itself. Art is a product that makes someone experience something. Anything, really. Videogames offer experiences, so they are art. Not that that term really means something by itself.

The only real question is how much further the videogame medium can still go as an art form. What new techniques will be created and what forms it will take in the future? What will be the great works that stand the test of time? What new artistic styles and schools will arise in gaming? What is the best path to creating better gaming experiences? These are the questions worth asking.
 

Grakl

Member
It is art, albeit almost always juvenile. Every once in a while you'll have something at least somewhat meaningful, and these games get put on a pedestal by people who love games.
 

SkyOdin

Member
I think Mountain Dew is art. Does that mean it's art?

The answer is yes. Food can be art, food packaging counts as art, and drinking mountain dew qualifies as an experience.

I mean, mankind's current perception of Santa Claus comes directly from some art drawn on a Coca-Cola can. That simple piece of advertising has had more direct and traceable influence on human thought and imagination than most books or films could claim. For that matter, the whole New Coke fiasco shows exactly how important something as simple as the flavor of a soda can be to people.

I see no problem calling that art.
 

Elios83

Member
Of course they are, creating digital worlds require great artists otherwise games would look like AutoCAD projects :D
 
The answer is yes. Food can be art, food packaging counts as art, and drinking mountain dew qualifies as an experience.

I mean, mankind's current perception of Santa Claus comes directly from some art drawn on a Coca-Cola can. That simple piece of advertising has had more direct and traceable influence on human thought and imagination than most books or films could claim. For that matter, the whole New Coke fiasco shows exactly how important something as simple as the flavor of a soda can be to people.

I see no problem calling that art.

And Mountain Dew even has its own Pope.
 
1 [mass noun] the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

so yeah

I don't see how this definition helps the argument. Games are application of human creative skills and imagination, and are partly in visual form. But are all games works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power?

But yeah, games are art.
 

Ranger X

Member
The only reason to not define them as art is if you have a strangely specific definition of art, such as defining art to only include things of a certain arbitrary level of perceived quality or appeal to refined tastes. I don't think "art" is really so special of a category that you can exclude stuff from it. There is plenty of really lousy art out there, after all. So obviously something doesn't need to be mind-blowing high quality to be art.

The word "art" really doesn't have much meaning at all. Everything is art. A child's scribbling hung from a refrigerator door by a magnet has equal claim to being art as Mozart's greatest symphony. Whether it is good art or bad art is irrelevant, it is art nonetheless.

The problem is that generations of artists, thinkers, and consumers of art have continuously co-opted the term for selfish purposes. Artists try to monopolize the term for marketing purposes; they try to elevate their works as "works of art" and try to diminish their competitors as "not art" to increase the relative value of their works. Likewise, wealthy consumers of art (including museums and the like) try to increase the perceived value of their collections by placing them on a pedestal and building up a perception that they have some inherent quality that separates them from more common, professional works. In reality, the only difference is a mix of semantics and what market they are buying and selling their goods in.

Furthermore, people have attached too much credibility to the concept of the "artist" as someone strange or special: a person of unusual genius and temperament who creates things normal people cannot. This is one of the empty myths of creativity. Most artists are just normal people doing the job that they like for a paycheck, and it has been that way since the dawn of time. Shakespeare was just an actor and a writer trying to create plays that would sell tickets to audiences. Leonardo da Vinci did most of his paintings on commission. Just because these men were talented and created great works doesn't mean that were somehow fundamentally different in nature from modern equivalents like television script-writers or artists with accounts on Deviant Art who draw for commissions.

By their very natures, videogames are full of art. They have images, music, stories, and cinematic elements. All of these are well-established forms of art, created by professional artists. Furthermore, the gameplay itself, which is designed to create emotions and experiences for the player, is to me a perfectly valid form of art in of itself. Art is a product that makes someone experience something. Anything, really. Videogames offer experiences, so they are art. Not that that term really means something by itself.

The only real question is how much further the videogame medium can still go as an art form. What new techniques will be created and what forms it will take in the future? What will be the great works that stand the test of time? What new artistic styles and schools will arise in gaming? What is the best path to creating better gaming experiences? These are the questions worth asking.


There. You worded it better than me. And I also wonder what the fuss is all about for naysayers. "Art is just art", nothing more, nothing less and humans can be full of themselves!
 
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