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Are things really that bad for North Koreans?

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Polari

Member
Not trying to start something, but looking at metrics such as (admittedly outdated) HDI numbers and life expectancy rates, it doesn't seem like North Korea is that bad compared to many of the world's developing countries. Obviously South Korea is more advanced, but North Korea's HDI in the last reported figures (1995... so yeah) was .766, which in 2013's ranking would put it at 66th in the world, above the likes of Brazil and Turkey. In terms of life expectancy as of 2011 it's 123rd of 198 at 69 years from birth, which again although not great isn't too shabby.

I guess we have to question the validity and reliability of the metrics and the data pretty strongly in this case. That said, the media seems to perpetuate the idea that North Korea is practically hell on earth, but is that really true? (well I guess if you get sent to one of the camps it is, but anyway...)
 
C

ChiTownBuffalo

Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
It sucks there. SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKS.
 
F

FaceDa

Banned
There are a lot of books about life in North Korea, a good one is "Nothing to Envy". Quite simply yes, it's bad.
 
Goro Majima

Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
Considering that its neighbors are China, Russia, South Korea, and Japan it should be doing a whole lot better. This would be like if Belgium was a 3rd world country.

Also the North Korean famine began around 1995 so those numbers are probably significantly off.
 
B

BertramCooper

Banned
When the DPRK finally crumbles and the U.S. and ROK fully unearth all of the atrocities committed by the Kims, we are going to hate ourselves.
 
D

DOBERMAN INC

Member
Satellite images of mass graves and numerous accounts of brutal death and suffering point to the numbers being cooked, not to mention the terrible famine.
 
T

Talon

Member
Well, I don't think you have to worry about being killed slowly with a cement roller in Turkey, for one.
 
P

Polari

Member
Trojita said:
That's not how it works.
Click to expand...

How do you figure? Presumably health is a pretty important component of quality of life.

Also if the famine is that bad I assume that figure would be a lot lower. It's not like the people in Pyongyang are bumping the average up that high by living to 150.
 
H

hym

Banned
Pyongyang has a nicer public pool than my town.

bNzu9bg.jpg
 
T

ToxicAdam

Member
Like any cult, things are good if you give the leader what he wants.

But, is that really 'good' for you as an individual?
 
Trojita

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Sye d'Burns said:
I somehow doubt that populations of prison camps are factored in to the numbers for the life expectancy rates
Click to expand...

To be honest, should we even trust any reports coming out of there on mortality? They are so closed off from most of the world to get an accurate number. The last report cited was from 1995.
 
LQX

LQX

Member
Maybe that is why no one ever leaves to immigrate to other countries. Also too busy enjoying life and have no use for any form of online engagement with others.
 
H

Herpes Reasons

Banned
Polari said:
How so? Surely if your quality of life is that bad, you don't live long.
Click to expand...

have you ever lived in a third world country?
there are plenty of old people who has lived their lives in poverty.
can't believe some would think using data like that to gauge the quality of life in north korea.
 
Wiz

Wiz

Member
No matter how many people will tell you yes, you'd never really know unless someone living there tells you how it really is.
 
A

Arsenic Yellow

Member
I would assume North Korea would not include their camp information and would manipulate the numbers so that it looks much better than it actually is. Considering how closed off NK is, I would assume any reports coming from them would just be propoganda. I'm not quite sure how the calculations work, so I could be wrong.

If you read about their camps, like the story of the guy who escaped camp 14, I think it would explain a lot about their quality of life. Especially if you consider that families an generations are jailed for past generation crimes. People are born into the camps and die in the camps :(
 
O

OrlanisWorks

Banned
Polari said:
How do you figure? Presumably health is a pretty important component of quality of life.

Also if the famine is that bad I assume that figure would be a lot lower. It's not like the people in Pyongyang are bumping the average up that high by living to 150.
Click to expand...

Figures are probably bullshit.

Health is an important part of living a happy life, but its still only one of many parts and is not exclusively able to establish happiness.
 
P

peanutbutterlatte

Member
Polari said:
How do you figure? Presumably health is a pretty important component of quality of life.
Click to expand...

Can you honestly not guess how life might be made worse for someone whilst not taking that life away? There are far worse things than death.

Polari said:
C'mon now, really? How do we gauge it then? Defector accounts that result in a massive sampling bias?
Click to expand...

Well exactly, you can't. There's no easy way to measure suffering like there is dead people.
 
P

Polari

Member
Herpes Reasons said:
have you ever lived in a third world country?
there are plenty of old people who has lived their lives in poverty.
can't believe some would think using data like that to gauge the quality of life in north korea.
Click to expand...

C'mon now, really? How do we gauge it then? Defector accounts that result in a massive sampling bias?
 
T

Talon

Member
Let me just say this, there's a good reason my grandparents walked across the DMZ with their kids back in the 60s.
 
P

Polari

Member
OrlanisWorks said:
Health is an important part of living a happy life, but its still only one of many parts and is not exclusively able to establish happiness.
Click to expand...

True, but in absence of better metrics (I don't think any of the happiness indexes have enough data for North Korea), poverty levels seem to correlate to life expectancy, something that most people responding are completely ignoring. Can someone prove me wrong on that one?
 
B

BertramCooper

Banned
Polari said:
True, but in absence of better metrics (I don't think any of the happiness indexes have enough data for North Korea), poverty levels seem to correlate to life expectancy, something that most people responding are completely ignoring. Can someone prove me wrong on that one?
Click to expand...

What you mean is that Kim Jong-un, the Great Successor, has given his people so much happiness that it cannot be accurately measured by traditional means.
 
H

Hightower

Banned
Polari said:
True, but in absence of better metrics (I don't think any of the happiness indexes have enough data for North Korea), poverty levels seem to correlate to life expectancy, something that most people responding are completely ignoring. Can someone prove me wrong on that one?
Click to expand...

Feel free to watch any of the countless documentaries from defected N. Koreans on the conditions there. It's a nightmare.
 
E

ElectricBlue187

Member
In the epilogue of the book Nothing to Envy they said the only western food aid organization allowed in the countryside found that something like 60% of the people surveyed were starving and eating weeds and tree bark and almost all of the people surveyed didn't know where they would get their next meal. That was in 2009-ish before Kim Jong-Il kicked the bucket so who knows if anything has changed, I kinda doubt it. It's insane that it has gone on this long (since around 1995) without a huge revolt, though I guess if there was one we would never hear about it.
 
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