• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Total Biscuit arguing for no used game sales

G

Grief.exe

Member
In his latest video The Devil's Halibut - Used Games, TB makes some compelling arguments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G_f8YBy39M

This should make for some good GAF discussion. Check fallacies at the door please.


Music
  • Multiple recurring revenue streams
  • Royalties - Pandora, Spotify, Radio Play
  • Concerts and live shows
  • Merchandise
  • CD sales aren't that relevant, more of a marketing tool
  • No cost to Studio once music is released

Movies
  • Similar to music
  • Most of the time money made back entirely at the box office
  • DVD/Blu Ray
  • Rental
  • Royalties - On Demand, Amazon/Netflix/Hulu
  • TV Syndication
  • No cost to Studio once movie is released

Used Car
  • Inherent Risk
  • Wear and tear
  • Degradation of performance and safety
  • No post-purchase cost for manufacturer
  • Not a luxury item

Video Games
  • Stores push used over new - Making massive profit margins
  • Often have to go to specialized stores for used CDs/DVDs. Used games in mainstream stores
  • Good as New, no wear and tear (resurfacing)
  • post purchase upkeep by Devs/Publishers (servers, patches, customer support)
  • Used Sales keep multiplayer communities alive for users, but the associated costs aren't being equitably repaid
  • Online Pass/DLC used to monetize used copies
  • Microsoft's policy isn't necessarily anti-consumer. They are aimed at Gamestop, not at consumer, but consumer is still affected.
  • Retailers have been bullying Devs/Publishers for years into pre-order exclusives, price fixing (forcing digital prices to stay equal to retailer see: base prices on Steam, PSN, eShop)
  • Policies are looking to diversify revenue streams much like movies or music

Comparisons to the PC Market
  • Used games essentially don't exist anymore. You buy digital or retail, both generally activate to services online
  • Buying an old game, just digital codes (see: GOG, Steam, etc)
  • The result is more money going directly to Devs/Publishers, resulting in ridiculously low sales prices
  • Even new games are affected like this, seeing massive discounts

Random
  • People who sell their used games are able to purchase more games as a result of that
    -Concedes the point, but goes on to say that most people who do that will only stay in the used ecosystem in order to save more money
  • Publishers see high profit margins for DLC
    One player buys DLC, trades copy in, DLC stays on account. Then next player is forced to buy the DLC again
  • No used titles in the future, going to an all digital market. Examples: iOS, Steam, Books, music, etc.
  • Very strange for Microsoft to take the negative PR now since we have a digital future
  • Fallacy where shutting down used games will cause more expensive games. Source: Steam
 
L

la flama blanca

Banned
I think the biggest problem is that nobody should trust Microsoft to behave the way Steam does in offering any sort of advantage to the consumer. They are too inconsistent and money driven to warrant any sort of confidence from us anymore.
 
G

Grief.exe

Member
Juancho9 said:
I think the biggest problem is that nobody should trust Microsoft to behave the way Steam does in offering any sort of advantage to the consumer. They are too inconsistent and money driven to warrant any sort of confidence from us anymore.
Click to expand...

I agree completely, I actually thought that was his worst argument.

I personally think this is his worst argument since Valve has set up an ecosystem of competition on PC digital retailers that won't exist on a closed platform.
 
S

SnakeswithLasers

Member
Used CDs didn't hurt the music market.
Used DVDSs didn't hurt the movie market.
Used cars don't hurt the automobile market.
Used games don't hurt the game market.
 
D

DigitalOp

Banned
There has to be a compromise. I would love to give devs a cut of the purchase cost if I bought their game used but we shouldn't be forced as consumers to go through a certified dealer to do it.

There has to be a better way so that everybodys happy.


Edit: and also.. game pubs, fix your broken ass market strategy, make more varied games.. then you'll see sales. Don't attack the consumer
 
Zomba13

Zomba13

Member
SnakeswithLasers said:
Used CDs didn't hurt the music market.
Used DVDSs didn't hurt the movie market.
Used cars don't hurt the automobile market.
Used games don't hurt the game market.
Click to expand...

Ah, but you see, used music, cars, movies, TVs, tech, furniture, clothes, books and other stuff aren't the same as games.
 
B

Burt

Member
He makes some good points, but I refuse to even consider the possibility that Microsoft would ever have a sale as tremendous as the sort that we see on a routine basis in the PC market. There's almost nothing in Microsoft's history that even hints that they would consider passing savings onto the consumer when it comes to software sales.
 
J

jlh

Member
angelcage87 said:
If Microsoft or publishers cared about stopping Gamestop alone, there would be tens of ways to do it not anti-consumerist DRM.
Click to expand...

Really? Then name all these tens of ways to do it. The reason why Gamestop has been so successful for so long in pushing used games is because there aren't a lot of things the publishers can do (legally) to get them to stop or to share the wealth.
 
B

BlastProcessing

Member
Are those arguments against used games, or arguments that the industry has created a really bad business model for themselves? The games industry has been the fastest growing entertainment industry for almost 30 years. Used games existed that whole time.

Now, when money is tighter, magically used games have become this huge problem.

For some reason I am skeptical.
 
AHA-Lambda

AHA-Lambda

Member
Used games wouldn't hurt games either if publishers weren't so incompetent with their AAA projects.

Also blocking used games on consoles will not bring the glory of Steam like services and competition to xbox and PS.
 
P

Photolysis

Banned
None of those are valid arguments why consumers should lose the right to resell what they have paid for.

All this talk of different distribution models is nothing other than a red herring. Even if gaming is completely exempt from that for the sake of argument, so what? That has fuck all to do with me.

What, are you saying I should only have the right to resell my DVD collection because companies can sell the same damn thing over and over? That's a bullshit argument.

post purchase upkeep by Devs/Publishers (servers, patches, customer support)
Click to expand...

If patching is necessary, it's because they've released a product that is not up to the quality it should be (i.e. it's buggy).

Servers are already paid for as part of the sale, and the cost is tied to the number of concurrent users they have to support (twice the sales, you need twice the servers). Used games do not change this figure.
 
iNvid02

iNvid02

Member
Fallacy where shutting down used games will cause more expensive games. Source: Steam
Click to expand...

i think the constant shadow of piracy has some effect on pc sales, not to mention you are free to buy these games anywhere resulting in more competition.

not the same case for a closed platform like the xbox. no threat from piracy and no competition means microsoft are free to do what they please

Even new games are affected like this, seeing massive discounts
Click to expand...

new games hardly ever see massive discounts in places like steam and origin, its the outside competition like amazon and greenmangaming that have the great launch deals - this outside competition will not exist as the only place to buy xb1 games online will be from microsoft
 
S

Slayven

Member
BlastProcessing said:
Are those arguments against used games, or arguments that the industry has created a really bad business model for themselves? The games industry has been the fastest growing entertainment industry for almost 30 years. Used games existed that whole time.

Now, when money is tighter, magically used games have become this huge problem.

For some reason I am skeptical.
Click to expand...

It wierd seeing so many people suddenly shaking their fist at used games. The Video Game industry is not special, they shouldn't get a free pass on used games.
 
A

AnotherNils

Member
If the PC market is so much better for devs/publishers why do I get the impression from people that its treated by those very same devs/publishers as the red headed step-child of video game platforms?
 
I

inky

Member
All of that stands on expecting Microsoft of all companies (and Sony to a lesser extent) to behave like Valve or GOG do on the PC space. That is never going to happen.

Sterling said it right: EA had the chance to prove it with Origin, and they have failed absolutely. If anything, Sim City fiasco maybe pushed back a few of their always online plans.
 
C

ciridesu

Member
Used Car
  • Inherent Risk
  • Wear and tear
  • Degradation of performance and safety
  • No post-purchase cost for manufacturer
  • Not a luxury item
Click to expand...

What am I reading someone help me

Games more of a luxury than cars WAAH
Cars degradation of performance and safety WAAH
Wear and tear (and this doesn't apply to games?) WAAH
No post-purchase for manufacturer WTFDOESTHISEVENMEAN

TotalBiscuit bro I expected more of my 155 IQ homie

EDIT: Also, LESS COMPETITION =/= LOWER PRICES jeez l2monopoly
 
F

famousmortimer

Banned
Basically what I see there are industries that made used items work. If videogames can't exist with used games existing that's its fault, not ours.
 
J

jlh

Member
Photolysis said:
None of those are valid arguments why consumers should lose the right to resell what they have paid for.
All this talk of different distribution models is nothing other than a red herring. Even if gaming is completely exempt from that for the sake of argument, so what? That has fuck all to do with me.

What, are you saying I should only have the right to resell my DVD collection because companies can sell the same damn thing over and over? That's a bullshit argument.
Click to expand...

No one has said that you will lose the right to resell your games. No one said that. If there is a fee to be charged or revenue to be split it is between the publishers, platform owners and retailers none of which stop you from selling your games.
 
H

hatchx

Banned
Honestly, I want to see more episodic/subscription based models.


I'd pay 49.99/year or 4.99/month for a Mario Kart/Halo subscription. One that lasted the entire generation and had new content monthly + developer support + patches + tournaments.

Then when a new campaign or 8-course grand-prix comes out sell it as DLC.



This model would work wonders for publishers and consumers I feel.
 
J

Jb

Member
Kind of hard to take him seriously when he's so far removed from the audience that (A) has to rely on the second hand market to purchase (B) console games.

Plus devs/pubs are fucking delusional if they think shutting it down will provide the financial fix to the fundamental, structural problems of their business. If it's that bad they're just delaying their inevitable bankruptcy.
 
W

WrenchNinja

Member
jlh said:
No one has said that you will lose the right to resell your games. No one said that. If there is a fee to be charged or revenue to be split it is between the publishers, platform holders and retailers none of which stop you from selling your games.
Click to expand...
Private selling?
 
A

angelcage87

Member
jlh said:
Really? Then name all these tens of ways to do it. The reason why Gamestop has been so successful for so long in pushing used games is because there aren't a lot of things the publishers can do (legally) to get them to stop or to share the wealth.
Click to expand...

Edited my post. If publishers can do what they (as far as we know) are doing with GS, that being forcing them to bend to they will and even set their price for used games, which doesn't even seem legal to me, there are many things could do.
 
G

Grief.exe

Member
AnotherNils said:
If the PC market is so much better for devs/publishers why do I get the impression from people that its treated by those very same devs/publishers as the red headed step-child of video game platforms?
Click to expand...

Maybe a couple years ago, but the market growth has caused Publishers to rethink their strategies.

Their are certain considerations on PC that have to be taken into account that don't exist on console. FOV slider, mouse acceleration, and other such issues can be easily ignored if you aren't familiar with PC gaming.
 
R

RumblingRosco

Member
ciridesu said:
What am I reading someone help me

Games more of a luxury than cars WAAH
Cars degradation of performance and safety WAAH
Wear and tear (and this doesn't apply to games?) WAAH
No post-purchase for manufacturer WTFDOESTHISEVENMEAN

TotalBiscuit bro I expected more of my 155 IQ homie
Click to expand...

The "No post-purchase cost" refers to what he said earlier:

post purchase upkeep by Devs/Publishers (servers, patches, customer support)
Click to expand...

Not that I agree with him or his logic, but just to clarify.
 
A

Arksy

Member
Wow...totalbiscuit has turned into the industry hack he always said he'd never become.

Cars cost a significant amount of labour and materials to make, and that's not even counting the R&D that went into designing it in the first place. They deserve a cut of the second hand market more than developers do. This is just developers being greedy. Nothing else.
 
S

snap0212

Member
There's zero proof that used games cause anyone to make less money or anything like that. Before we argue anything we should surely ask for proof that the problem even exists, right?
 
R

RumblingRosco

Member
jlh said:
No one has said that you will lose the right to resell your games. No one said that. If there is a fee to be charged or revenue to be split it is between the publishers, platform owners and retailers none of which stop you from selling your games.
Click to expand...

So... I can resell my game to my friend when I'm done using the new system MS is implementing? That's fantastic news! You should make a new thread to explain this new news!
 
G

Grief.exe

Member
Jay-B said:
Kind of hard to take him seriously when he's so far removed from the audience that (A) has to rely on the second hand market to purchase (B) console games.

Plus devs/pubs are fucking delusional if they think shutting it down will provide the financial fix to the fundamental, structural problems of their business. If it's that bad they're just delaying their inevitable bankruptcy.
Click to expand...

He was very poor up until a few years ago when his channel took off, he has admitted to relying both on piracy and used games at many times in his life.

He worked at GAME for many years, I think he is very familiar with that industry.
 
indigo-cyclops

indigo-cyclops

Member
Used PC games DO exist; the issue there may be that they aren't a viable market for revenue. I've bought a handful of used PC games recently. Console used games are obviously a more viable market, but they are for a reason.

I think I could deal with the downsizing of the market if new games were priced competitively; especially digitally. But there's also the desire for a physical item, which many still love.
 
N

Nightstick11

Banned
I'm not understanding his argument. Comparable to books and movies, games have multiple recurring revenue streams that either already exist, or can easily be implemented.

GameFly and other similar services provide rental income.
You can purchase old games on DD services for all 3 consoles.
There is DLC, season passes, and in-game items buyable with cash etc.
Free-2-Play console games are only a matter of time.

How many different "recurring revenue streams" do these fat-cat publishers need?
 
A

AnotherNils

Member
Grief.exe said:
Maybe a couple years ago, but the market growth has caused Publishers to rethink their strategies.

Their are certain considerations on PC that have to be taken into account that don't exist on console. FOV slider, mouse acceleration, and other such issues can be easily ignored if you aren't familiar with PC gaming.
Click to expand...
ARe those options really that difficult to implement?

(I guess given what I hear about crap PC the ports the answer is yes...)
 
P

Photolysis

Banned
jlh said:
No one has said that you will lose the right to resell your games. No one said that. If there is a fee to be charged or revenue to be split it is between the publishers, platform holders and retailers none of which stop you from selling your games.
Click to expand...

Okay fine, if you want to be pedantic, yes, they're not physically stopping me. In practice however they're interfering by making it essentially worthless. If MS continues along their present route, what value does the disk have to anyone? Pennies, because they have to pay a huge fee to unlock it.
 
Z

zoukka

Member
When you start to rationalize these decisions to stomp consumer rights, you have already lost. Of course they are rational and natural from the platform developers point of view.
 
J

JDSN

Banned
His argument is summed by:

"We have to get fucked in the arse so the industry can live"


Not him obviously, its easy to make a case for used sales when you get you get press packages and trips to fucking Bermuda to play the game.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Gaming giant Steam accused of ripping off 14m UK gamers
News 2 3
125
6K
hidaaan replied
Poland to scrutinize digital game platforms like Steam and PSN on suspicion of anti-competitive practices
News
4
459
RoboFu replied
( Manor Lords publisher) Hooded Horse explains why “Steam is an incredibly nice partner”
13
692
Nvzman replied
Looking into a PS5 and it seems insane to not spend the extra $70 CAD for the disc version based on some physical vs digital game prices I am seeing
2 3
111
5K
Sushi_Combo replied
Sony’s stock value drop by about $10b after lowering PS5’s sales forecast for the fiscal year, analysts question near decade-low profit margin
3 4 5 6 7
310
21K
Mibu no ookami replied
Top Bottom