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Are modern fighting games too obtuse?

Deft Beck

Deft Beck

Member
I was playing Darkstalkers: Resurrection for the first time and I got my ass kicked by the first CPU opponent. I found that looking in the move-list and trying to decode the combos for my character's attacks broke up the flow of play. I resorted to button mashing and was defeated quickly. I had a similar experience with Street Fighter 4.

That got me thinking. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as if the fighting game genre could have a major problem of introducing newbies while the systems lying underneath them become more complicated for the elite.

Perhaps I'm a tad biased. In terms of the fighting game scene, I'm an outsider. I only play them casually and I understand that other genres can be just as obtuse to those who aren't invested in them. Beatmania IIDX, one of the most high-level rhythm games, must be incredibly daunting to outsiders in its own way. Shmups, MMOs and MOBAs may have the same problems, too.

With all of these genres, they may be played at basic levels ('easy' songs in rhythm games, casual modes in shmups, matchmaking with newbies in MOBAs) and there are rewards for those who stick to it and move to higher and higher levels. Sure, there are tutorials that ease people into the surface level of the systems, but it's also a matter of not overwhelming the player and making them feel like they're progressing.

Personally, I'm incredibly daunted by videos of events like EVO, while awed by events like Konami's top-ranking rhythm game tournaments. I appreciate that there are those who have mastered the genres to that level. I might just be happy to play "real" fighters and stuff like Smash casually, though.

Do you believe that there's too much of a difficulty curve in the fighting genre, in particular?
Are developers doing enough to cultivate multiple audiences at different levels of play?
 
N

Not Spaceghost

Spaceghost
Naw fighting games are just different, it's a demanding genre. It should stay that way to be honest.

Fighting games are very newbie friendly if you have other newbies to play with, expecting to do well against people who have mastery of the nuances of the genre is just ridiculous.
 
T

TheSpoiler

Member
Spaceghost said:
Naw fighting games are just different, it's a demanding genre. It should stay that way to be honest.

Fighting games are very newbie friendly if you have other newbies to play with, expecting to do well against people who have mastery of the nuances of the genre is just ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Killed it.

You want to get good at fighting games? Buckle up and learn. Dumbing it down, for any genre, is pretty silly when the resources are vast and available.
 
D

Dazzler

Member
Is it just me that immediately gets the scene with the warden from Shawshank Redemption in their head when someone mentions the word obtuse?
 
S

SolarPowered

Member
Wheeliedude said:
I was playing Darkstalkers: Resurrection for the first time and I got my ass kicked by the first CPU opponent. I found that looking in the move-list and trying to decode the combos for my character's attacks broke up the flow of play. I resorted to button mashing and was defeated quickly.
Click to expand...
This was me when I first tried Vampire Savior a couple of years ago with Lei Lei. It took me days to reach the boss and it took even longer for me to learn her command super without a training mode with infinite meter for repeated supers. I hated command supers ever since I first ran into Akuma in Marvel vs SF more than a decade ago, but I muscled my way through the annoyance and learned the character. Getting good takes an investment of time and if you can't invest it and resort to button mashing you are going to be whooped hard.

What character were you playing?
 
J

Jedi2016

Member
Easy to learn, difficult to master. It's always been that way with games like Street Fighter.

I've always played them for fun with friends.. Test your Luck in MK9 or something, and neither one of us has mastered anything beyond a few simple moves for each character.
 
S

Snapshot King

Member
The Faceless Master said:
20 year old games are 'modern fighting games' now?
Click to expand...

Darkstalkers showed up in 94, merely 3 years after Street Fighter 2. I don't understand why the OP used the term modern either, it's total nonsense. Do you mean ALL fighting games OP? If so, no, of course not. They're like any other skill oriented game that relies on a lot of competition, you need to put in the time. Diving into Counterstrike in year 2 or 3 is probably the most brutal shit I've ever seen, and that game was as "simple" as point and shoot.
 
A

Alphahawk

Member
Yup, and dev don't make it any easier. I played one fighting game recently on the 360 where the tutorial gave the listed moves for the arcade layout as opposed to the 360 layout. Also when you consider that all these games are being made for arcade sticks as opposed to standard controllers, and you have a genre that's just not very welcoming to the average player.
 
Deft Beck

Deft Beck

Member
TheSpoiler said:
Killed it.

You want to get good at fighting games? Buckle up and learn. Dumbing it down, for any genre, is pretty silly when the resources are vast and available.
Click to expand...

If it were made any easier, the massive audience that appreciated its challenge could be diminished. So, instead of dumbing it down, it would be a better idea to have systems that encourage the gradual development of skills.

Perhaps an application of logistics could be appropriate. The 'level' system in Darkstalkers: Resurrection seemed interesting, encouraging you to try new things and accomplish goals. An extension and development of systems like that would be close to what I'm imagining.
 
B

bennyc12

Member
Wheeliedude said:
If it were made any easier, the massive audience that appreciated its challenge could be diminished. So, instead of dumbing it down, it would be a better idea to have systems that encourage the gradual development of skills.
Click to expand...

This. You don't have to dumb a game's systems down to make the game more accessible.
 
T

TheSpoiler

Member
Alphahawk said:
Yup, and dev don't make it any easier. I played one fighting game recently on the 360 where the tutorial gave the listed moves for the arcade layout as opposed to the 360 layout. Also when you consider that all these games are being made for arcade sticks as opposed to standard controllers, and you have a genre that's just not very welcoming to the average player.
Click to expand...

You realize that many top players play with a pad just fine, right?

If it were made any easier, the massive audience that appreciated its challenge could be diminished. So, instead of dumbing it down, it would be a better idea to have systems that encourage the gradual development of skills.

Perhaps an application of logistics could be appropriate. The 'level' system in Darkstalkers: Resurrection seemed interesting, encouraging you to try new things and accomplish goals. An extension and development of systems like that would be close to what I'm imagining.

Something better than just fighting the CPU. Play Virtua Fighter 5:Final Showdown, that game has a great tutorial.

Don't fret now, because there are plenty of tools to help you practice. Sit in the Training mode until you know what comes out when you push what button, and so on. Land that down, and you'll have a good headstart.
 
M

Master Milk

Member
Wheeliedude said:
If it were made any easier, the massive audience that appreciated its challenge could be diminished. So, instead of dumbing it down, it would be a better idea to have systems that encourage the gradual development of skills.

Perhaps an application of logistics could be appropriate. The 'level' system in Darkstalkers: Resurrection seemed interesting, encouraging you to try new things and accomplish goals. An extension and development of systems like that would be close to what I'm imagining.
Click to expand...

Instead of relying on a game to hold your hand to proficiency, why don't you just set a goal for yourself and achieve it?
 
Deft Beck

Deft Beck

Member
Snapshot King said:
Darkstalkers showed up in 94, merely 3 years after Street Fighter 2. I don't understand why the OP used the term modern either, it's total nonsense. Do you mean ALL fighting games OP? If so, no, of course not. They're like any other skill oriented game that relies on a lot of competition, you need to put in the time. Diving into Counterstrike in year 2 or 3 is probably the most brutal shit I've ever seen, and that game was as "simple" as point and shoot.
Click to expand...

Perhaps my thread title and initial example were mismatched. My point still stands.

It's an issue of ensuring that the player feels satisfied by their progress enough so that they will be motivated to reach higher and higher levels. Systems in future games should alert players to their deficiencies and be presented with opportunities to remedy them.
 
Deft Beck

Deft Beck

Member
SolarPowered said:
This was me when I first tried Vampire Savior a couple of years ago with Lei Lei. It took me days to reach the boss and it took even longer for me to learn her command super without a training mode with infinite meter for repeated supers. I hated command supers ever since I first ran into Akuma in Marvel vs SF more than a decade ago, but I muscled my way through the annoyance and learned the character. Getting good takes an investment of time and if you can't invest it and resort to button mashing you are going to be whooped hard.

What character were you playing?
Click to expand...

I picked Felicia by accident, and was matched up against Jon Talbain. I wanted to turn off the sprite filtering and I couldn't until I had finally lost my first two matches.

That's besides the central point of the thread, though.
 
S

Snapshot King

Member
Wheeliedude said:
Perhaps my thread title and initial example were mismatched. My point still stands.

It's an issue of ensuring that the player feels satisfied by their progress enough so that they will be motivated to reach higher and higher levels. Systems in future games should alert players to their deficiencies and be presented with opportunities to remedy them.
Click to expand...

Players who don't care to put in the necessary time will never be motivated by systems because any game that has a high enough skill ceiling will allow for consistent blowout victories over you by better players. Blazblue for example has a series of symbols that pop up on throws or sweeps or such, explaining where you weren't blocking, but anyone who doesn't care enough to be analyzing their own play in the first place isn't going to notice them.
 
D

Dachande

Member
Hard to say one way or the other, I think. On one hand, I think it's always possible to play a fighting game and have fun with others on your level, but it's no fun to play against an experienced player and get your ass handed to you.

It's hard to get to that kind of level, which makes me lean towards saying that they are too obtuse for many, but I wonder if it's the fact that no fighting game has ever had decent tutorials. Some have tried (e.g. Skullgirls) but I don't think any have succeeded.

So, two possibilities - either no fighting game dev has managed to work out a good way of teaching players the more high level techniques of fighting games yet, or it's not possible and it's as you say, that the genre has become too complicated and has too high a barrier for entry for the average player.

Part of the issue is that fighting games are kind of homogeneous - 2D fighters share many of the same techniques, as do 3D fighters. I wonder if someone could shake up the genre with something that doesn't play like either that could be more accessible. Gamers are conservative bunch though, terrified of change, so it's a question whether something like that would be accepted or just shunned outright for being too different... which Smash Bros has suffered from in certain circles, and even that isn't too different.
 
Deft Beck

Deft Beck

Member
TheSpoiler said:
You realize that many top players play with a pad just fine, right?

If it were made any easier, the massive audience that appreciated its challenge could be diminished. So, instead of dumbing it down, it would be a better idea to have systems that encourage the gradual development of skills.

Perhaps an application of logistics could be appropriate. The 'level' system in Darkstalkers: Resurrection seemed interesting, encouraging you to try new things and accomplish goals. An extension and development of systems like that would be close to what I'm imagining.

Something better than just fighting the CPU. Play Virtua Fighter 5:Final Showdown, that game has a great tutorial.

Don't fret now, because there are plenty of tools to help you practice. Sit in the Training mode until you know what comes out when you push what button, and so on. Land that down, and you'll have a good headstart.
Click to expand...

It would be better if there was something beyond just a 'training' mode. That's good for learning the systems one-by-one, but I'm imagining an overarching system that tracks what the player does and helps them realize what they are doing wrong. Then, they can make strides to improving in that direction.

I don't think it would be hand-holding. Ideally, the system would be transparent and unobtrusive.
 
H

Holy Order Sol

Member
The games themselves don't need to change, but people need to understand that you have to learn a game's system before learning a character does any good. If you're a complete beginner, watching EVO finals won't help you. Combo movies won't help you. Frame data sheets won't help you. Whatever passes for knowledge of the old games from fifteen years ago back when you used to body people who didn't know any better won't help you.

It's just too many overzealous newcomers trying to copy stuff they don't understand even on a basic level and then blaming the games when that doesn't pay off.
 
S

Snapshot King

Member
Wheeliedude said:
It would be better if there was something beyond just a 'training' mode. That's good for learning the systems one-by-one, but I'm imagining an overarching system that tracks what the player does and helps them realize what they are doing wrong. Then, they can make strides to improving in that direction.

I don't think it would be hand-holding. Ideally, the system would be transparent and unobtrusive.
Click to expand...

That system already exists in most games nowadays, in the replay function. Just go back and watch matches where you got blown out and see where your mistakes were.
 
P

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
I think you just need people to play with. It's quite helpful. I don't think MMOs and MOBAs belong in this conversation but for things rhythm games and STGs, you're playing alone against a CPU and things don't change. You can practice and practice and it comes down to execution and muscle memory. With a fighting game there's a dynamic force which you have to adapt and react to sometimes.
 
P

Pai Pai Master

Banned
The long running franchises have no obligation to dumb down their mechanics or inputs for new players. They have eventually beefed up their tutorials and practice modes enough so most people who want to dive deeper and get competitive can do so. Especially with online opponents to play against.

That said, the genre as a whole has kinda lost its favor because no one has really tried to change things up and level the playing field for new and old players. Smash Bros. and PS All Stars are the only high profile ones I can think of.

I haven't played stuff like those Naruto fighters but I imagine they aren't exactly like classic fighting games either. I'm not convinced that combo button inputs is still the best possible way to do things with how far game tech has come since Final Fight and Street Fighter.
 
C

Cels

Member
the systems "modern fighting games" use are fine, but i suppose better tutorials would be nice to cover the basics.
 
Deft Beck

Deft Beck

Member
Snapshot King said:
That system already exists in most games nowadays, in the replay function. Just go back and watch matches where you got blown our and see where your mistakes were.
Click to expand...

Sure, but that seems too archaic. You can show someone exactly what they were doing incorrectly a million times, but if they don't know to remedy them, it will remain an issue. There's persistence and experimentation, but there's the issue of not being aware of an alternative if/until you stumble upon it. The challenge for designers is making sure that players don't quit out of frustration and never come back to it. The challenge can still be there, but the player should have some help besides tightening their bootstraps.

Maybe the game records what you are attempting to input and nudges you in the direction of the correct moves or tactics. Then, it can pinpoint where you trip up and move on from there. If a system could zero in on the mistake with a high degree of precision, it could be extremely effective.
 
J

Jotamide

Unconfirmed Member
I think Darkstalkers is one of the least newbie friendly games out there. Try Persona 4 Arena OP.
 
S

Solune

Member
Wheeliedude said:
Do you believe that there's too much of a difficulty curve in the fighting genre, in particular?
Are developers doing enough to cultivate multiple audiences at different levels of play?
Click to expand...

Regards to the first question, no, difficulty curve has in fact decreased since the rejuvenation of the genre since command readers are more lenient in general, while still having difficult to perform maneuvers.

Second, on some varying degrees of level of success to implement simplified combos such as Blazblue or Persona 4 Arena.
 
J

Jintor

Member
Skullgirls is probably the first and indeed only fighter I've ever encountered that has explained some of the basic concepts in the actual game itself. Stuff like how a combo system works, or windup and recovery, or mixups...
 
K

Ken

Member
Wheeliedude said:
Sure, but that seems too archaic. You can show someone exactly what they were doing incorrectly a million times, but if they don't know to remedy them, it will remain an issue. There's persistence and experimentation, but there's the issue of not being aware of an alternative if/until you stumble upon it. The challenge for designers is making sure that players don't quit out of frustration and never come back to it. The challenge can still be there, but the player should have some help besides tightening their bootstraps.

Maybe the game records what you are attempting to input and nudges you in the direction of the correct moves or tactics. Then, it can pinpoint where you trip up and move on from there. If a system could zero in on the mistake with a high degree of precision, it could be extremely effective.
Click to expand...

That's what the internet and fighting game forum critique threads are for.

The game itself will have a hard time telling what you were going for or what moves were "correct" at the time.

On properly inputing for specials that's kind of an individual thing you can work on in training mode.
 
Deft Beck

Deft Beck

Member
Pai Pai Master said:
The long running franchises have no obligation to dumb down their mechanics or inputs for new players. They have eventually beefed up their tutorials and practice modes enough so most people who want to dive deeper and get competitive can do so. Especially with online opponents to play against.

That said, the genre as a whole has kinda lost its favor because no one has really tried to change things up and level the playing field for new and old players. Smash Bros. and PS All Stars are the only high profile ones I can think of.

I haven't played stuff like those Naruto fighters but I imagine they aren't exactly like classic fighting games either. I'm not convinced that combo button inputs is still the best possible way to do things with how far game tech has come since Final Fight and Street Fighter.
Click to expand...

Large tutorials can be daunting and cumbersome to a player. The first time I attempted to play Galactic Civilizations II, I had to sit through half an hour of tutorial videos. In the fighting genre, games like SF4 and PS All Stars have intuitive, accessible tutorials. It's an issue of moving beyond the tutorial, though, as I have said before.

Button combo inputs are a mainstay of the genre, but it isn't necessarily the only way. Rhythm games were dominated by buttons until games like Ouendan/EBA attempted using the touchscreen. Now, we have Konami's Jubeat, Rhythm Evolution's ReRave and Pentavision's DJ Max Technika, all very distinct rhythm games that use touchscreens.

Who knows: that may be an avenue that fighting games may go down at some point.
 
S

Snapshot King

Member
Wheeliedude said:
Sure, but that seems too archaic. You can show someone exactly what they were doing incorrectly a million times, but if they don't know to remedy them, it will remain an issue. There's persistence and experimentation, but there's the issue of not being aware of an alternative if/until you stumble upon it. The challenge for designers is making sure that players don't quit out of frustration and never come back to it. The challenge can still be there, but the player should have some help besides tightening their bootstraps.

Maybe the game records what you are attempting to input and nudges you in the direction of the correct moves or tactics. Then, it can pinpoint where you trip up and move on from there. If a system could zero in on the mistake with a high degree of precision, it could be extremely effective.
Click to expand...


What you're asking for is impossible though. It requires the system to know what the correct thing to do in every situation is. A match in a fighter is a back and forth between two opponents and is rife with mindgames as well as mechanical execution. You seem to want the equivalent degree of an FPS heatmap, showing stuff like, "Hey, 40% of your damage came from being thrown". But what if your opponent happens to be supremely good at tick throwing? Or setups? Just because replays of match footage is "old" doesn't make it archaic. There's a reason it works. It lets you watch the entire thing in context. No computer system will ever be able to figure out why you have bad footsies and be able to give you advice on how to correct them. So learn the systems, watch your replays and put in the time. If you're not willing to do so, that's okay, the genre clearly isn't for you. Any game that would allow for such a system would lack depth.
 
Gormless Noodle

Gormless Noodle

Member
Strange to read this, especially considering how accessible Capcom fighters tend to be. The difficulty curve should be fine. Maybe it's just a sign of the times, gaming has generally gotten way too easy and people seem unable to handle defeat or seeing a Game Over screen any longer.
 
S

Sophia

Member
Jintor said:
Skullgirls is probably the first and indeed only fighter I've ever encountered that has explained some of the basic concepts in the actual game itself. Stuff like how a combo system works, or windup and recovery, or mixups...
Click to expand...

Stuff like Skullgirls and Persona 4 Arena go out of their way to have beginner friendly mechanics. Quite a good thing for the genre, unlike Capcom games which just throws darts at a board and see what sticks. >_>;

I wish more games had a tutorial like Skullgirls. It's one of the best I've ever seen. Blazblue CS had a pretty good one too.

Tekkie said:
Strange to read this, especially considering how accessible Capcom fighters tend to be. The difficulty curve should be fine. Maybe it's just a sign of the times, gaming has generally gotten way too easy and people seem unable to handle defeat or seeing a Game Over screen any longer.
Click to expand...

Capcom fighters are anything but accessible. Hell, Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 is pretty much devoid of a tutorial.
 
P

PBalfredo

Member
Jotamide said:
I think Darkstalkers is one of the least newbie friendly games out there. Try Persona 4 Arena OP.
Click to expand...

This.

I plan on give this it's own thread later, but I believe Persona 4 Arena does a lot of smart things that makes it very accessible. Such as a simple four button layout which works very well with console controllers, unlike the layout of most arcade-born fighters. In-match indicators that a landed attack was an overhead or low attack, eliminating the sense of "How'd that hit me?! I was blocking!". And most of all, the auto-combo. It gives new players the ability to poke and punish into a super right out of the gate, which is a huge tool for beginners which they would normally lack when trying out a new game.
 
D

Degen

Member
The long learning process is the best part. It gives you a reason to keep working at it, and extra satisfaction when you realize you're getting better.

Fighting games definitely need to step up their tutorials though. It's not enough to say, "these are your moves; these are your basic combos; have fun"

and yeah, Darkstalkers was not a great choice lol. Put some more time into SF4
 
Deft Beck

Deft Beck

Member
Ken said:
That's what the internet and fighting game forum critique threads are for.

The game itself will have a hard time telling what you were going for or what moves were "correct" at the time.

On properly inputing for specials that's kind of an individual thing you can work on in training mode.
Click to expand...

Those tools can be effective, but not on their own.

Your second statement is based around the assumption that information collecting systems in games cannot improve to that point. It should be possible to have the game figure out what a player is attempting to do and then help them achieve their goals. It may not be easy, but the game that figures it out will be fascinating to see.
 
T

Tan

Member
I don't think they're too complex or obtuse, I just think their tutorials/explanations are crummy for the most part. It's a really tough genre to explain to a newcomer just because of how mechanics focused the whole thing is. Most fighting games(that I've played) just spell out some combos for you and ask you to repeat them. Explaining how/why those combos work would be way more helpful in my opinion.

The best advice I could give is to just what I ended up doing with MvC3.
1. Watch a bunch of stream with good commentators.
2. Spend a lot of time in training mode experimenting with combos you read about online and trying to understand why it is that some stuff works and others don't.
3. Play a lot while trying to apply what you learned from 1 and 2.
 
J

Jintor

Member
Sophia said:
Stuff like Skullgirls and Persona 4 Arena go out of their way to have beginner friendly mechanics. Quite a good thing for the genre, unlike Capcom games which just throws darts at a board and see what sticks. >_>;
Click to expand...

lol and I still get confused as fuck due to a six button layout and the lack of a dedicated switchout/special button. Too used to uMvC3's baby button layouts.
 
V

Village

Member
Tan said:
I don't think they're too complex or obtuse, I just think their tutorials/explanations are crummy for the most part. It's a really tough genre to explain to a newcomer just because of how mechanics focused the whole thing is. Most fighting games(that I've played) just spell out some combos for you and ask you to repeat them. Explaining how/why those combos work would be way more helpful in my opinion.

The best advice I could give is to just what I ended up doing with MvC3.
1. Watch a bunch of stream with good commentators.
2. Spend a lot of time in training mode experimenting with combos you read about online and trying to understand why it is that some stuff works and others don't.
3. Play a lot while trying to apply what you learned from 1 and 2.
Click to expand...

tumblr_m5yg8xkjVp1rq1uhjo1_500.gif


This is how you play virgil OP.
 
I

ihearthawthats

Banned
i'm not sure what point you're trying to make? first you say fighting against the cpu, and second you use vs as an example of a modern game.

like you said, these games have easy cpu difficulty. why wouldn't you use it if you were struggling as a beginner? for the second point, "modern" fgs in generally have already made it much more accessible than vs and games from that era.


i would consider the other competitive genres to be mobas, rts, and fps. i wouldn't consider any of those particularly easier than fgs. perhaps more fun at the casual level, but not any easier to get good at a competitive level.

i spose the main difference is that there are non-competitive fps and rts games, with a single-player campaign focus. perhaps beat-em-ups can be the equivalent. they have somewhat similar mechanics.
 
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