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Nightengale · Nov 25, 2013

BloodMoney said:
Any chance we can buy a more honest review from Gies?

Phil Kollar and Arthur Gies are what I like to call them "the overly pretentious reviewers who think they're deep"

Their reviews are filled with nothing but flowery language, hype, a sense of profound literature, in every words try to convey a sense of beauty and experience. In that the game delivers an inner message, and experience, a voice from within.

They mask their reviews with a scent of 'wow, so deep, so insightful', when there's nothing in their reviews that are remotely critical, it panders strictly to their self-obsessed views of the experience, and they project very, very deeply into the game. Basically, they project a pre-conceived bias into the stuff they're reviewing, and it's honestly very transparent.

Their reviews are without substance.

No Love · Nov 25, 2013

Nightengale said:
Phil Kollar and Arthur Gies are what I like to call them "the overly pretentious reviewers who think they're deep"

Their reviews are filled with nothing but flowery language, hype, a sense of profound literature, in every words try to convey a sense of beauty and experience. In that the game delivers an inner message, and experience, a voice from within.

They mask their reviews with a scent of 'wow, so deep, so insightful', when there's nothing in their reviews that are remotely critical, it panders strictly to their self-obsessed views of the experience, and they project very, very deeply into the game. Basically, they project a pre-conceived bias into the stuff they're reviewing, and it's honestly very transparent.

Their reviews are without substance.

Agreed x100. They are posers, pretty much. They can't just lay things out simply, they have to make it seem as if their writing goes so much deeper and further than the common layman can grasp.

Triggerhappytel · Nov 25, 2013

BakedSardine said:
Not only are they glossing over it, some such as Sessler do not even mention them in their review. Seriously, not a single mention of DLC or microtransactions....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw6_-Q3kXtQ

Sessler's review of this was really odd. He heavily praises the game for having things which have been standard in most good driving games over the last three generations, mentions that he played Forza 4, but doesn't comment on the reduced content, prevalent micro-transactions or altered in-game functions.

WarMacheen · Nov 25, 2013

soundscream said:
HOW

You don't need to buy the tokens. It plays the same way as every Forza before except they give you more in game money.

It's not the same, read the thread.

MADGAME · Nov 25, 2013

Nightengale said:
Phil Kollar and Arthur Gies are what I like to call them "the overly pretentious reviewers who think they're deep"

Their reviews are filled with nothing but flowery language, hype, a sense of profound literature, in every words try to convey a sense of beauty and experience. In that the game delivers an inner message, and experience, a voice from within.

They mask their reviews with a scent of 'wow, so deep, so insightful', when there's nothing in their reviews that are remotely critical, it panders strictly to their self-obsessed views of the experience, and they project very, very deeply into the game. Basically, they project a pre-conceived bias into the stuff they're reviewing, and it's honestly very transparent.

Their reviews are without substance.

I agree with you, but they wouldn't be around if they didn't have a following. What does that say about the masses?

UnluckyKate · Nov 25, 2013

Nymphae said:
So how can reviews be worth anything if they aren't even allowed to tell you about all the relevant details I would need to make a purchase? Unbelievable, I think some of these guys need to start not signing NDAs and just be honest with their audiences about why they don't have day 1 reviews.

Every reviewer ever will tell you ' I will never pay for a game to review. Either I recieve it or I'm not writing about it '

Truth is that If you murder a game Ike day you will get black listed and never get any games from that Pr agency ( working for X editor) until the girl/ agency changes.

But if you don't get the game you can't review it. No review means you lose traffic to your rival site that has one: less traffic means less revenue from annoucers. It means less money for you to pay your staff.

It's a vicious circles and the editor totally nailed it down and they use their force to pressure nice and easy reviewers to write good and promotional reviews.

Why do you think it's called review and not critic ?

Nymphae · Nov 25, 2013

MADGAME said:
I agree with you, but they wouldn't be around if they didn't have a following. What does that say about the masses?

They like to watch trainwrecks.

soundscream · Nov 25, 2013

WarMacheen said:
It's not the same, read the thread.

I have and the FeetoPlay claim is bull. You don't have to pay any fees to play the game. This isnt Real Racing where you have to pay for car maintenance to keep playing. It plays the exact same way as other Forzas have played.

Xanadu · Nov 25, 2013

soundscream said:
I have and the FeetoPlay claim is bull. You don't have to pay any fees to play the game. This isnt Real Racing where you have to pay for car maintenance to keep playing. It plays the exact same way as other Forzas have played.

give this a read

http://www.teamvvv.com/en/news/comments/Forza-5s-monetisation-is-a-monumental-rip-off

watership · Nov 25, 2013

soundscream said:
As someone who has played 1-5 I can tell you it is not different in anyway that affects playing the career mode from start to finish.

Pretty much this. I also think that the presence microtransactions to advance in the game is not something I would use, so it doesn't offend me as long as it's not in my face, trying to upsell me like a cell phone game.

QuicheFontaine · Nov 25, 2013

commish said:
454 hours to get all the content really isn't that bad.

What figure would you consider excessive? That 454 hours is pure driving, it's not including time spent doing anything else in the game.

If you spent that long driving in real life you could literally drive the equivalent of the earth's circumference.

If I treated the game like my job, 9-5, five days a week, it would take 13 weeks. Doing nothing but driving all day on the same 14 tracks.

Seems excessive to me.

UnluckyKate · Nov 25, 2013

commish said:
454 hours to get all the content really isn't that bad.

454 hours grinding for maximum credits earning per hour. Plain and simple gold farming.

Not 454 hours having fun going through the game's progression or career not getting better at driving different cars, styles and circuits.

454 Hours farming credits isn't fun. It's not a good point for the game.

WarMacheen · Nov 25, 2013

soundscream said:
I have and the FeetoPlay claim is bull. You don't have to pay any fees to play the game. This isnt Real Racing where you have to pay for car maintenance to keep playing. It plays the exact same way as other Forzas have played.

In the sense that you are driving fake cars, it is the same. The game design was changed to accommodate further microtransactions. I'm sorry if you can't see that.

Cyberia · Nov 25, 2013

nib95 said:
Can we make a list of reviews that did mention or detail the micro transactions, and the pay walled by DLC gameplay modes on the disc? I'd like to know which I can trust and not trust on such matters going forward.

So far...

Did mention micro-transactions.

Eurogamer

Gamereactor too if i'm correct.

RM8 · Nov 25, 2013

Marauder Shields said:
Am I missing something? If you can grind to get the required tokens then what's the problem?

You need to spend some time with F2P games.

It's never like a regular game, just with the "option" to bypass having to unlock stuff. It's always terribly slow and hard to unlock stuff.

soundscream · Nov 25, 2013

Xanadu said:
give this a read

http://www.teamvvv.com/en/news/comments/Forza-5s-monetisation-is-a-monumental-rip-off

Aside from the lack of cars in free play mode, I disagree with almost every point of that article.

theignoramus · Nov 25, 2013

NervousXtian said:
I think a lot of the people complaining the most don't even understand the point of a sim racer.

It's like complaining about not enough characters in a fighting game.

Are you trying to race through the content and collect all the cars.. or you know actually try to maximize lap times and do the best with the car you are racing?

I mean, I guess I see getting ultra mad if you look at GT/Forza as collect-a-thons and not actually racing games.

It's not really grinding if you're playing the game the to get better at it. If you consider actually racing to be grinding, then you might want more of an arcade racer.

Not that I'm completely defending this shit, but a lot of people seem to miss the point of what these games are about.

Really, you're gunna pull the "maybe you arent a sim racing fan" card for people that arent swallowing this? That's ballsy.

I put in over a 100 hours into FM4 with the AI at either expert or professional, drove without ABS, TC and active suspension. As you well know, the events that paid the most in FM4 boiled down to the same dozen tracks. The grind got old. (thats why I eventually bought tokens) I can only imagine how tired the events in FM5 will get at the 50+ hour mark of gameplay because they have even fewer tracks in that game.

QaaQer · Nov 25, 2013

Nymphae said:
So how can reviews be worth anything if they aren't even allowed to tell you about all the relevant details I would need to make a purchase? Unbelievable, I think some of these guys need to start not signing NDAs and just be honest with their audiences about why they don't have day 1 reviews.

Yeah, what other NDAs are there? They are probably as restrictive as they can get away with and still be legal. That's probably why the only outlet that mentioned it in review was European.

Nymphae · Nov 25, 2013

UnluckyKate said:
But if you don't get the game you can't review it. No review means you lose traffic to your rival site that has one: less traffic means less revenue from annoucers. It means less money for you to pay your staff.

I get this, I just think it's BS. Has any outlet ever tried to go the other route? To have some integrity and deny early review copies and access to events? Buy everything the way a consumer would, and post reviews as soon as you are able to get an honest, accurate assessment of the product your audience will be buying? I like to think with some good writing and personalities, a site like that would be a big hit with a lot of gamers.

BakedSardine · Nov 25, 2013

Cumpkin Hubris said:
What figure would you consider excessive? That 454 hours is pure driving, it's not including time spent doing anything else in the game.

If you spent that long driving in real life you could literally drive the equivalent of the earth's circumference.

If I treated the game like my job, 9-5, five days a week, it would take 13 weeks. Doing nothing but driving all day on the same 14 tracks.

Seems excessive to me.

The maximum time to unlock everything in a game should be in the 80-100 hour range, which is what people will typically put into engrossing RPGs.

454 hours, let's just call it 500, is ridiculous. You are essentially telling people who are avid gamers to play your game, and no other game, if they want the full experience. At 100 hours, people can put in a couple hours a week aver the course of a year to unlock everything, which seems acceptable. At 454 hours, you are asking people to play your game as a full-time job (8 hrs/day X 5 days a week) for over 11 weeks for the full enjoyment - that's asinine.

soundscream · Nov 25, 2013

WarMacheen said:
In the sense that you are driving fake cars, it is the same. The game design was changed to accommodate further microtransactions. I'm sorry if you can't see that.

So then why do they not charge to fix your damaged cars any more, wouldn't that reduce the amount of in game credits you earn? Or the fact that I have more in game money in the first couple of hours than I have had in the previous games?

theignoramus · Nov 25, 2013

Aside from the lack of cars in free play mode, I disagree with almost every point of that article.

Defend the removal of prize cars, manufacturer affinity and the auction house then.

LevityNYC · Nov 25, 2013

BakedSardine said:
The maximum time to unlock everything in a game should be in the 80-100 hour range, which is what people will typically put into engrossing RPGs.

454 hours, let's just call it 500, is ridiculous. You are essentially telling people who are avid gamers to play your game, and no other game, if they want the full experience. At 100 hours, people can put in a couple hours a week aver the course of a year to unlock everything, which seems acceptable. At 454 hours, you are asking people to play your game as a full-time job (8 hrs/day X 5 days a week) for over 11 weeks for the full enjoyment - that's asinine.

Why does everything need to be unlocked in less than 3 months?

Partial Gamification · Nov 25, 2013

Cumpkin Hubris said:
What figure would you consider excessive? That 454 hours is pure driving, it's not including time spent doing anything else in the game.

If you spent that long driving in real life you could literally drive the equivalent of the earth's circumference.

If I treated the game like my job, 9-5, five days a week, it would take 13 weeks. Doing nothing but driving all day on the same 14 tracks.

Seems excessive to me.

Seems like a lot of play too. Getting one's monies worth. It is a racing game and to some the grinding is a pleasant experience, check the forza5 forums and the OT here. I'm wondering how much misinformation and subjective half-truths are flowing into this thread.

I do not like the microtransactions but the misinformation is much worse because it hampers efforts to do something about the former. I can't tell you how much you are going to like something, but what the hell: this post is great and you should love it I saved you the long grinding rant so you could experince it all).

I'm a just little mad at myself.

QaaQer · Nov 25, 2013

Nymphae said:
I get this, I just think it's BS. Has any outlet ever tried to go the other route? To have some integrity and deny early review copies and access to events? Buy everything the way a consumer would, and post reviews as soon as you are able to get an honest, accurate assessment of the product your audience will be buying? I like to think with some good writing and personalities, a site like that would be a big hit with a lot of gamers.

gamecritics.com

Its small, makes virtually no money, and the 'staff' are volunteer.

UnluckyKate · Nov 25, 2013

LevityNYC said:
Why does everything need to be unlocked in less than 3 months?

Sure it's a launch titles player will be carving for month so let's let them grind for a year !

Bunta · Nov 25, 2013

commish said:
454 hours to get all the content really isn't that bad.

That's pretty bad.

edit: Actually, that's horrid.

QuicheFontaine · Nov 25, 2013

BakedSardine said:
The maximum time to unlock everything in a game should be in the 80-100 hour range, which is what people will typically put into engrossing RPGs.

454 hours, let's just call it 500, is ridiculous. You are essentially telling people who are avid gamers to play your game, and no other game, if they want the full experience. At 100 hours, people can put in a couple hours a week aver the course of a year to unlock everything, which seems acceptable. At 454 hours, you are asking people to play your game as a full-time job (8 hrs/day X 5 days a week) for over 11 weeks for the full enjoyment - that's asinine.

I gave myself an hour for lunch, that's why I said 13 weeks

theignoramus · Nov 25, 2013

If this was Codemasters pulling this stunt with the F1 Classic content they released alongside F12013, fucking nobody would be defending it with "mate, just play the game 60 hours for that Lotus 100T, a real fan of sim racers would"

soundscream · Nov 25, 2013

theignoramus said:
Defend the removal of prize cars, manufacturer affinity and the auction house then.

Prize cars were worth 100cr (+any mods added) if you were to sell them, now if you sell a car you get what you put in. So instead of getting 100-2,000cr for my car Ill get 50,000 or more depending on the car.
Manufacture affinity is still in the game just no upgrade discounts, which by the end of the game became silly because you were maxing out cars for no money.
Auction house I never used because I liked the sense of achievement for earning my cars, people using the auction house are probably token buyers.

BeastLeeAdams · Nov 25, 2013

If you do not like it, do not buy it. If people really did not buy it, than companies would not do it. Seriously what can you do about this? I do not like it, but it does not mean, I am not going to play it and enjoy myself. I will probably only end up with maybe what fifty cars at the most? Unless you only play Forza, you will eventually move on to other games, and if not you will eventually unlock everything if you feel like it.

Onto the reviews. Yes it should be put in there and made aware that they have a money system in game. That is bullshit and a lie to the consumers. There should be a warning on the box.

FunnyBunny · Nov 25, 2013

soundscream said:
Prize cars were worth 100cr (+any mods added) credits if you were to sell them, now if you sell a car you get what you put in. So instead of getting 100-2,000cr for my car Ill get 50,000 or more depending on the car.
Manufacture affinity is still in the game just no upgrade discounts, which by the end of the game became silly because you were maxing out cars for no money.
Auction house I never used because I liked the sense of achievement for earning my cars, people using the auction house are probably token buyers.

You're analysis ignores the fact some prize cars were great rides worth keeping and saved players time and in game currency. They rewarded players for good play.

And defending the absence of the auction house because you didn't use it isn't a comment on the game's design... it's essentially saying you don't care.

I used the auction house and no, I was not a token user.

I agree with you about the manufacturer affinity.

JimiNutz · Nov 25, 2013

Listonosh said:
Or at the same time, just don't use the Microtransactions. I agree that they're absolutely detestable, but they're also not required to play this game. It would be way worse if they were mandatory to purchase some exclusive cars, but that isn't the case. It's hard not to support Forza when its a really fantastic driving game.

This is exactly how I feel.
Day 1 DLC and microtransactions piss me off and I want no part of them.

That being said, Forza is a brilliant game and as a gamer I would be doing myself a disservice by not playing it...

I've put in over 15 hours now and the game keeps on getting better and better. I've felt no need to spend any more money or buy any DLC. you don't need to do any of that shit to play and enjoy the game.

People boycotting this game because of day 1 DLC or microtransactions are missing out on the best console racing sim available today.
That's a real shame because this game deserves to be played.

jimi_dini · Nov 25, 2013

LevityNYC said:
Why does everything need to be unlocked in less than 3 months?

Reminds me of Uncharted 3 treasures.
Maybe Naughty Dog were planning for this crap as well back then and just didn't add microtransactions into that game. :/

Dynamic3 · Nov 25, 2013

Xpost from the OT:

How much is the VIP membership from the marketplace? And is purchasing the LE the only way to get the RS7?

Also, does VIP membership double the rate at which you earn Cr?

Hero_of_the_Day · Nov 25, 2013

I don't really get why people are bitching about this. 454 hours of content for only $60 is a bad thing? Seriously!? It costs like $15 to go see a two hour movie.

Nafai1123 · Nov 25, 2013

No prize cars in this game at all? That's one of the main inspirations for playing a game like this for me.

Hero_of_the_Day said:
I don't really get why people are bitching about this. 454 hours of content for only $60 is a bad thing? Seriously!? It costs like $15 to go see a two hour movie.

If you're gonna look at it that way, F2P games provide the most value since you can grind pretty much indefinately if you don't want to spend any money.

Grinding for 454 hours is not a good thing for a $60 racing game.

BakedSardine · Nov 25, 2013

LevityNYC said:
Why does everything need to be unlocked in less than 3 months?

3 months of making playing a single game your full-time job.

I don't really get why people are bitching about this. 454 hours of content for only $60 is a bad thing? Seriously!? It costs like $15 to go see a two hour movie.

Nymphae · Nov 25, 2013

Untalkative_Bunny said:
gamecritics.com

Its small, makes virtually no money, and the 'staff' are volunteer.

I like the cut of their gib.

plagiarize · Nov 25, 2013

Hero_of_the_Day said:
I don't really get why people are bitching about this. 454 hours of content for only $60 is a bad thing? Seriously!? It costs like $15 to go see a two hour movie.

it's not 450 hours of content. that's the problem.

Dire · Nov 25, 2013

Listonosh said:
Or at the same time, just don't use the Microtransactions. I agree that they're absolutely detestable, but they're also not required to play this game. It would be way worse if they were mandatory to purchase some exclusive cars, but that isn't the case. It's hard not to support Forza when its a really fantastic driving game.

That mentality would give the devs, or publishers as the more likely culprit in this case, carte blanche to go as annoying and obnoxious as they can in an attempt to coerce gamers into pay-to-win. You have to draw a line somewhere and that somewhere needs to be well before they start forcing you to pay extra money just to fulfill a basic completion of the game you already supposedly purchased.

QaaQer · Nov 25, 2013

Nymphae said:
I like the cut of their gib.

I enjoy some of their podcasts. The guy who runs it works for the American Red Cross and is the biggest Nintendo fan.

JimiNutz · Nov 25, 2013

Listonosh said:
Or at the same time, just don't use the Microtransactions. I agree that they're absolutely detestable, but they're also not required to play this game. It would be way worse if they were mandatory to purchase some exclusive cars, but that isn't the case. It's hard not to support Forza when its a really fantastic driving game.

This is exactly how I feel.
Day 1 DLC and microtransactions piss me off and I want no part of them.

That being said, Forza is a brilliant game and as a gamer I would be doing myself a disservice by not playing it...

I've put in over 15 hours now and the game keeps on getting better and better. I've felt no need to spend any more money or buy any DLC. you don't need to do any of that shit to play and enjoy the game.

People boycotting this game because of day 1 DLC or microtransactions are missing out on the best console racing sim available today.
That's a real shame because this game deserves to be played.

Hero_of_the_Day · Nov 25, 2013

BakedSardine said:

I'm not.

This is fucking disgusting and no one should support any piece of shit company that tries to fuck their paying customers so long and hard.

NutJobJim said:
This is exactly how I feel.
Day 1 DLC and microtransactions piss me off and I want no part of them.

That being said, Forza is a brilliant game and as a gamer I would be doing myself a disservice by not playing it...

I've put in over 15 hours now and the game keeps on getting better and better. I've felt no need to spend any more money or buy any DLC. you don't need to do any of that shit to play and enjoy the game.

People boycotting this game because of day 1 DLC or microtransactions are missing out on the best console racing sim available today.
That's a real shame because this game deserves to be played.

My view is that they've still gotten theirs by you buying it. They don't give a fuck that you aren't buying the DLC, you already gave them your $60 vote of approval. It costs them nothing to have these micro-transactions. So if a single person buys into it, it's worth it for them. As long as people aren't not buying the game because of it, it's worth it. Because SOMEONE will pay more.

Some will pay more, some won't, all will have an inferior game.

wapplew · Nov 25, 2013

I understand people justify these business model as long as it don't change the way it used to play.
Yes, it won't bother if you can easily obtain same content without paying.
What make me sick is how the publisher justify the price tag of such model?
I can totally understand DLC, cosmetic content be charge, they put time and money and lots of effort to make those content and we should pay fair amount.
But charging you player without any extra effort? 100 dollar for 8000 token, we pay for a push of a button?
Do they really think they are entitle to get our hard earn money with just some simple lines of code, bunch of numbers that they can generate how many they wish? The fact that they think this is totally fair is what sicken me the most.

Zing · Nov 25, 2013

soundscream said:
As someone who has played 1-5 I can tell you it is not different in anyway that affects playing the career mode from start to finish.

Oh hush. We don't have time for facts from people who have actually played and enjoy the series. We are too busy stroking our beards from our ivory tower as we discuss what is best for the little people.

NullPointer · Nov 25, 2013

wapplew said:
Greed talk aside, which scenario you think is better for gamer?

Game sell 60, no DLC micro transaction bs, sold ok, unsustainable, franchise dead.
Game sell 60, lots of DLC micro transaction bs, sold the same, more profit, franchise live.

So we've gone from a $60 game that was complete on day one, to $1,700 for a complete game in this instance, and even that price only includes the day one DLC.

There's rising costs and then there is treating your consumer base like a bunch of suckers.

theignoramus · Nov 25, 2013

100 dollars for that Lotus F1 car costs more than a general admission ticket on race day at the 2014 Canadian Grand Prix

weekend_warrior · Nov 25, 2013

NutJobJim said:
This is exactly how I feel.
Day 1 DLC and microtransactions piss me off and I want no part of them.

That being said, Forza is a brilliant game and as a gamer I would be doing myself a disservice by not playing it...

I've put in over 15 hours now and the game keeps on getting better and better. I've felt no need to spend any more money or buy any DLC. you don't need to do any of that shit to play and enjoy the game.

People boycotting this game because of day 1 DLC or microtransactions are missing out on the best console racing sim available today.
That's a real shame because this game deserves to be played.

That's like supporting a friend who beats up his wife because he makes good nachos and can't beat you up.

Super Nothing · Nov 25, 2013

NutJobJim said:
This is exactly how I feel.
Day 1 DLC and microtransactions piss me off and I want no part of them.

That being said, Forza is a brilliant game and as a gamer I would be doing myself a disservice by not playing it...

I've put in over 15 hours now and the game keeps on getting better and better. I've felt no need to spend any more money or buy any DLC. you don't need to do any of that shit to play and enjoy the game.

People boycotting this game because of day 1 DLC or microtransactions are missing out on the best console racing sim available today.
That's a real shame because this game deserves to be played.

Let's see how you feel when you're 100 hours deep and only have half the cars unlocked and have already raced every track 1,000 times over.

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